Poly - please stop referring to Johnson as "boris" It plays his game and makes him seem less dangerous
He may not be the tories but he is their leader and his attitude is indicative
A TORY peer branded Scotland a country of subsidy junkies who beat up English students yesterday.
Lord Flight ranted: “The English have had enough of subsidising Scotland, only to be treated with discourtesy.”
Conservative Councillor Richard Willis has tweeted a plea for Scotland to vote for independence "so we can be rid of your whining and whinging (sic) and leave the rest of the UK happier and wealthier!".
Etc etc etc
Look how difficult and disastrous Brexit has been. Then imagine trying to leave a political union of a few hundred years with a land border. It will be a hugely complicated struggle. Why would Westminster make any effort to provide good will in negotiations? Especially with a Tory government there?
In some ways the land border in Scotland is actually easier to manage than the one in NI though. Whilst in an ideal world for both Scotland and England you'd have no physical border controls, a Sweden/Norway or Switzerland/France border would not be the end of the world. In NI that is not possible under the Good Friday agreement. Then add in negotiations around military bases, the share of the UK debt mountain, etc and if BOTH sides are willing to cooperate you get a deal. I'm far more worried about Scottish negotiators setting stupid red lines like "No nukes on our soil from next week" than London ones.
People dream of being rid of the Tories in Scotland but the SNP is a broad church there are rabid right wingers who vote SNP as they are pro Indy, So who is to say we wouldn’t end up with a similarly right wing party in charge of Scotland?
Then that will be because the people of Scotland voted for that and chose to have it, and will then a few years later have the option to change that. The argument for Indy is not "never have a Tory in charge" its "Scotland should decide whats best for Scotland".
We are not that different to England.
I'm actually pretty convinced that we are. I mean nowhere in the Western world is "that" different to England but I'm pretty sure we are not only different but diverging...
So who is to say we wouldn’t end up with a similarly right wing party in charge of Scotland?
It could happen as poly says but given that the tories get 20% of the vote here and Scotland has not had the tories as the largest share of the vote since the 50s I consider it unlikely
I’m pretty sure we are not only different but diverging
Its the divergence thats the real issue - while England moves further to the right scotland moves further to the left. the disconnect is huge and getting bigger
Look at the response to the refugeee removals in Scotland compared to the RNLI in hastings
I wonder what would happen to the tory party here in Scotland if we gained independence 😕 Obviously there couldn't be a tory party as we have now, as they default to Westminster for their instructions and basis of policy.
Would there have to be new parties formed, but even then a tory-esque party could still be looking towards London and the English party for their policy ideas.
The various branch offices that run the Scottish version of the political parties would actually become separate entities, although I believe the Scottish Greens are already fully separated form their compatriots down south.
Short term you would still have the same parties. Longer term who knows.
I think there's still a massive job to do in parts of Scotland for those wanting independence. Mention the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon down here and you will likely be met by vitriol like you've never witnessed before. I don't share their views btw.
I also think they've got an image problem in some parts of Scotland. I told a nice neighbour about being told to go back to my own country. He immediately said the man must be SNP. Now I've never thought of the modern SNP as nationalist in a BNP kind of way but it kind of seems that some people think like that. As was said above the SNP is a broad church. Obviously, there are many more people in the more-likely-to-be-pro-independence cities so the numbers might be there for independence. Dunno.
Poly – please stop referring to Johnson as “boris” It plays his game and makes him seem less dangerous
OMG TJ - you really have lost it!
It’s my own fault. I live in Dumfries and Galloway which is a bit special.
Yes, it's a Tory voting area.
Dyna ti
I suspect as a ove the realignment post independence would lead to the left of the tories and the right of the snp forming a centre right group and the remaining tories disappear into far right ukip land and obscurity
The centre right could hold or shate power
It’s my own fault. I live in Dumfries and Galloway which is a bit special.
Yes, it’s a Tory voting area.
change can happen, I now live in what was a safe Tory seat (Ayr, Alloway), it returned SNP at the last vote. I'm taking the victory, it must have been me that tipped it!
@intheborders
You're right, it is. Their vote still counts as much as anyone elses when it comes to Indyref2 though.
Not sure much of Edinburgh votes Tory.
Also, and I did add this as an edit, whilst you might think of the Tories as xenophobic, at least one D&G resident thinks that of the SNP. Just shows that the divisions run deep and whether the numbers are there for independence or not, or whether they will be, I dunno and in reality nor does anyone else.
I’m actually pretty convinced that we are.
Oof.
You need to have a think about how media works and how you get your information.
MOlgrips - please do not tell people who live in Scotland what the conditions are. Its pretty arrogant of you to think yo know more about the politics of scotland than residents. I know i do not know enough about Welsh politics to comment on them with any confidence
UKIP at its highest got 7% of the vote here. 20 odd % in england. tories here get 20% of the vote compared to 40% in England ( and that holds true even pre the rise of the SNP) we voted for an explicitly tax raising government, no one dare mention that south of the border.
60+ % remain average across scotland with not one region voting leave in the brexit referendum
tories have not had the largest share of the vote here in 65 years. tory vote went down IIRC at the last GE
Politically we are different and we are diverging
You think about where you get your information from - you will ONLY see the unionist perspective.
Its pretty arrogant of you to think yo know more about the politics of scotland than residents
Yeah that's not what I said at all. But never mind. I'm not debating this with you.
But as a general point, on this subject, there is no such thing as 'the English' or 'the Scottish' politically.
And as a final point - Scottish websites are accessible from all over the UK and indeed the world, I assume you're aware of this?
And there you go again telling us that we are wrong. Politically there is a significant difference and its getting bigger. Its completely obvious when you live here
And there you go again telling us that we are wrong.
No, stop being a bell end. My initial point was telling people to consider where they get their information from, which is ironically the same thing you just told me.
Its completely obvious when you live here
Completely obvious depending on which bit of Scotland you live in and who you converse with.
Molgrips - that was precisely my point. You telling us you know better and to check your sources of info so I merely reflected that back at you - where do you get your info from that you can deny this?
the difference is obvious in voting patterns. thats hard evidence
I'm English but half Scottish by blood and have lots of family there. I work in Scotland quite a lot.
I'm often struck by how much more caring the Scots are of people and society in general. They are much warmer folk than the English. I can well understand the widespread abhorrence of Westminster Tories.
The SNP seem to get away with piss-poor performance; I think people turn a blind eye because they want independence (& the SNP is the only plausible game in town).
Whatever the Scotts decide re: Indy is fine by me. They should get the opportunity to vote in a referendum again I think.
The SNP seem to get away with piss-poor performance
I don't think they're the best at lots of stuff, but the likes of Ross constantly bleat about the attainment gap, education and the health service. Which is ironic given how his party do on all 3 of those in rUK.
However, it was really good to see him and NS on that visit to the drug rehab Centre last week, politician's SHOULD be collaborating to better society.
As things stand currently, I would vote for Scotch Independence.
Might change my mind as new info comes to date.
Not a definite position but, on balance, I think it's the right thing for the country.
I've no doubt Scotland will get independence one day, but the SNP are going about it just now as if it's got an expiry date, the entire world is in disarray just now, the UK still hasn't settled from Brexit and the rest, the EU is in a bit of flux as well, Covid isn't helping either in terms of bringing any stability, so probably worth focusing on how to improve what they can with what power they have at present, without getting caught up in any IndyRef2 stuff.
As for Scotland being left, or centre left or whatever, it's just like every other country, it has areas where they are left biased, and areas that are right, it has the affluent areas and poor areas that will vote towards their own benefit, or not at all, it's pretty much the same as the rest of the UK, and independence will just bring about a similar output as with any country, they'll probably pull a bit to the right to start with i'd guess, especially in this day and age.
it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK,
Its really not. Yes it varies across the country but
1) the tories have not been the largest party in 65 years here
2) we voted for an explicitly tax raising party
3) we voted 60+ % remain and no region voted leave
4)tories get less than half the vote they do down south.
5) Ukip got 7% of the vote here at its highest compared to 25% in england
the average vote is well to the left of the average vote in england
anti immigrant rhetoric gets zero traction here
I’m often struck by how much more caring the Scots are of people and society in general.
Does this include Michael Gove?
Gove is not one of the people of Scotland. I do not know why you continue with this weird charade. His constituency is in Surrey. He has not lived here for decades. He pays no taxes here and has no vote in Scottish elections.
You really are weird
I think the word you are looking for TJ, is troll.
tjagain
Full Member
it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the UK,Its really not. Yes it varies across the country but
1) the tories have not been the largest party in 65 years here
2) we voted for an explicitly tax raising party
3) we voted 60+ % remain and no region voted leave4)tories get less than half the vote they do down south.
5) Ukip got 7% of the vote here at its highest compared to 25% in england
the average vote is well to the left of the average vote in england
anti immigrant rhetoric gets zero traction here
Voting means very little to what i said, give the nation a clean sheet and they'll do the same as others, it's part and parcel of the western world just now.
As for Anti immigrant getting zero traction, are you being serious!
please do not tell people who live in Scotland what the conditions are.
You seem to tell people who live in England a lot about how shitty their conditions are to live in
Gove is not one of the people of Scotland.
Does this apply to all Scots who live, work and pay taxes outside Scotland?
You really are weird
You are cherry picking, a Scot born and educated in Scotland works in the UK Government deciding policies that directly affect those who live in Scotland. But he's not one of "the people of Scotland"
The "people of England" get to have him, what you will really hate is that we have you as well....
Agree - have you ever been to Scotland?
Voting is not everything but there is a clear pattern over decades.
Oh - and find me an example from any of the main scots political parties that shows anti immigrant rhetoric. Even the tories don't do it very much here.
WTF Does this mean? " give the nation a clean sheet and they’ll do the same as others" Others like the nordic and low countries? Increase taxation and increase support for the poor? give workers proper protection?
Just as a wee example - In England tenants get a 6 month ASL tenancy with no protection. In Scotland ( and its only a few years old we used to use ASLS) we now have the the "scottish residential tenancy" which offers tenants significantly more protection from unfair terms, eviction for spurious reasons etc - and even if you want to sell you have to give many months notice to get the tenants out compared to 1 month on a whim in england
Does this apply to all Scots who live, work and pay taxes outside Scotland?
yes mr troll
its very clear - the people of Scotland are those who have made it their home. They have the right to vote here One of the things you seem unable to understand - its not about blood and soil or ethnicity - its about who has made this country their home
what you will really hate is that we have you as well….
You really are weird. I have lived here for 30 continuous years. Gove has lived in England for 30+ years.
Are you really that hard of thinking?
Oh – and find me an example from any of the main scots political parties that shows anti immigrant rhetoric. Even the tories don’t do it very much here.
Remind me, you called Gordon Brown racist for his anti immigration policies and rhetoric
A Scot, representing a Scottish constituency, probably qualifies under your "people of Scotland" criteria, most senior politician in the UK (which includes Scotland) at one time
Yes I know - don't feed the troll. I shall go back to ignoring him but it needed to be stated clearly
Go on - quote me calling Brown racist. go on - quote - a direct quote. or apologise for your false allegations
tjagain
Full Member
Happily condemn him Ernie. Browns playing of the race card was totally unacceptable. But he is no longer in any position of power.
Seek and ye shall find....
I'm sure you'll claim that's not actually calling him racist or accusing him of using racist rhetoric,. Or you can use racist rhetoric but not be racist or some other excuses
So where is the quote that I called him racist. I made the distinction between" playing the race card" and "being racist" quite clear in that discussion
so once again - are you going to give the quote where i call Brown "racist" or are you going to keep on with your trolling
You really are a weird little troll - what do you get out of this nonsense? I think you need psychiatric help
tjagain
Full Member
Agree – have you ever been to Scotland?
Yeah, once or twice ;o)
As for the bit about becoming like other countries, it's pretty simple, just now all are pulling towards a single goal, independence, with uneasy alliances, when there's a clean slate, i.e. being independent, then there will be population who will be far right, far left, etc and those will fit in with metrics you see around the western world.
I made the distinction between” playing the race card” and “being racist” quite clear in that discussion
I would love to see an explanation of how "playing the race card" is not in and of itself racist?
@argee, I think you are generally right there. After Indy, Scotland will be similar, politically, to most of the west. However, Scotland's voting has been left of the rUK for a long time - not many Tories. It would be reasonable to assume that this will be reflected in any new political movements after indy?
just now all are pulling towards a single goal, independence,...............then there will be population who will be far right, far left, etc
Errmm - that really is not true - yes the snp ( membership less than 5% of the country, voters around 45% of the electorate) are a broad church from pretty solid socialist to paternalistic centre right.
But the SNP are not the same as the electorate. Ukip got 7% of the vote at their peak compared to 25% in england - and no one that votes SNP now will vote UKIP or hard right in the future. they might vote for a future centre right grouping but that movement willbe small
Even before the rise of the SNP and the independence movement the tories were no where near being the biggest party
with metrics you see around the western world.
which bit? The leftish social democracies of the nordic countires and the low countries? Or the right wing USA?
the metrics vary tremendously country to country
I just see most of the world has moved to the right, you take away that one party one direction thing and it'll be a bit of a hodgepot of parties and manifesto's, will be interesting to see, but first it would be waiting for the dust to settle after any in-fighting and appeasing of those who need it.
Agree again agree. But I think that opens the door for co-alition? Which "might" be a step in the right direction?
Argee - why would scotland after voting solidly left wing for 60 years suddenly turn to the right post independence??
pandhandj
Free Member
Agree again agree. But I think that opens the door for co-alition?
The list system pretty much guarantee's scotland will be dominated by coalitions. The SNP vote is un-natuarlly high at the minute, a lot of people only lend them their vote I reckon, and will continue to do so, I don't see this independence/unionist split going away anytime soon.
Apologies Joe, I was meaning after Indy. I guess it will take many years for unionist Scots to disappear, if they ever do. But coalition is good in my wee world... Select the best bits from all ideas, not just stick to 1 parties ideas for 5 years.
