Scotland Indyref 2

Lets be honest there isn't going to be a indy ref in the short term and even a positive vote would take a while for the details to go through, so the level of pound now is irrelevant as it could be anything in the next 2-4 years. But a weak pound now doesn't necessarily hurt all Scotland, manufacturers should be taking advantage.

[quote=mcj78 ]On the other hand - can any of you tell me which of that 14.8 billion we'll still be able to fund once post-brexit austerity really bites on the back of a widely predicted (further) slump in the the pound?

More than you will when you're independent from the country which controls the levers for the currency you use (I'm assuming the plan is still to use the pound, any other option appears significantly worse), you're dealing with post-brexit austerity, you don't have the oil revenues the economic case was based on last time, you don't have money heading north to make up for the lack of oil money* AND you have trade barriers between you and by far your biggest trading partner. I suppose the latter wouldn't necessarily be the case if iS didn't rejoin the EU (or manage to be the continuing state), but keeping Scotland in the EU appears to be the whole justification for a second referendum (if you assume it's not just political posturing).

* I'm fully expecting TJ to rightly point out that Scotland has been sending money south for most of the past 40 years, but that's kind of irrelevant to the deficit you have right now and for the foreseeable future.

I note that I'm very grateful for the oil money Scotland has sent us, and totally happy to send money north now - it's well worth it because we both benefit from being together.

I'm assuming the plan is still to use the pound,

In which case it falls over at the start - some plan?!? McBaldrick to the rescue

But latest dream idea is even worse - possibly (to stop someone wetting himself) the euro 😯 Does wee nippy really think that Scots are that stupid!?!

Ducks, given that its been three days since Jambas was on here, what was the point of the shin-grazer?

But latest dream idea is even worse - possibly (to stop someone wetting himself) the euro Does wee nippy really think that Scots are that stupid!?!

[quote=teamhurtmore ]But latest dream idea is even worse

Quite - which is why I'm assuming the pound even with all the obvious pitfalls -which nobody will care about because FREEDOM. The only other obvious options are either a totally independent currency which seems to have all sorts of other very difficult hurdles or a currency tied to something else (the US dollar?) Not really surprising that it's a question nobody wants to answer.

You have to wear tartan-tinded specs to still argue for the £. Ruled out for good reasons last time by BoE, and all main parties. Its a non-starter.

There is only one option - an independent currency with all that implies. The reason no one mentions it (although Stilglitz is now converted to the obvious) is that it would be worse than the current situation. Blindingly obvious to all but the narcissist and her merry band.

She has to keep it under wraps as her case for independence falls flat from the outset

A currency union was ruled out - I can't see any way to stop them using the pound if they want to, though with no control over the levers.

well thats just daft - its meant to be about "independence" and faking control, sorry taking control.

I'm fully expecting TJ to rightly point out that Scotland has been sending money south for most of the past 40 years, but that's kind of irrelevant to the deficit you have right now and for the foreseeable future.
I note that I'm very grateful for the oil money Scotland has sent us, and totally happy to send money north now - it's well worth it because we both benefit from being together.

Given we were told during all the years of excess that independence wasn't financially feasible and knowing what we now know, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Scots have been serially lied to. Has something happened to change that?

I'm just being pragmatic - it appears in the short term to be the best option despite all the drawbacks. Well I suppose the best option would be a currency union, along with some sort of political union, but with control over most things retained in Scotland...

In much that same way that the best option for Brexit is to negotiate membership of the single market in a similar way to Norway.

Pragmatism/common sense = status quo (remember close to a federal state already), it does not mean stupidity and desperation. Unless you are simply in it for yourself....

Well I suppose the best option would be a currency union, along with some sort of political union, but with control over most things retained in Scotland...

aracer
More than you will when you're independent from the country which controls the levers for the currency you use...

I thought we were equals in all of this, at least until any proposed split - it in together & all that jazz, or is that just the austerity bit? So, to confirm - is it the ENGLISH pound we currently use & do we not have the right to use it, post any theoretical split if we see fit? If we did, would RUK deliberately scupper the currency (haven't they already though?) just to devalue assets held in Sterling by those uppity Jocks?

you don't have the oil revenues the economic case was based on last time

Well, we'd still have 100% of the revenue to worry about, instead of the 30% we currently receive.

you don't have money heading north to make up for the lack of oil money...

True, but...

Scotland has been sending money south for most of the past 40 years

That^

AND you have trade barriers between you and by far your biggest trading partner.

Ok, you got me - we'll continue to send the whisky*, irn-bru, deep fried chocolate bars, shortbread & Broons annuals down south & you guys keep sending up the good old English tea & scones, vats of coronation chicken, bunting, morris dancers and the juicy Westminster scandals we all love reading about & we'll all carry on with a stiff upper lip and forget that the EU will be doing the exact same thing to the UK post article 50 triggerment (we'll make up our own language as well)...

It's a toughie...

*the revenue from which has always been listed under UK exports, as opposed to featuring on the tartan tax return, hasn't it?

You can use chocolate buttons if you like.

They key is to chose something that is compatible with the independence that some claim they need/want.

[quote=mcj78 ]I thought we were equals in all of this, at least until any proposed split

We are, and at the moment Scottish interests have some influence on control of the pound.

So, to confirm - is it the ENGLISH pound we currently use & do we not have the right to use it, post any theoretical split if we see fit? If we did, would RUK deliberately scupper the currency (haven't they already though?) just to devalue assets held in Sterling by those uppity Jocks?

It's the pound controlled by the Bank of England who hold the reserves (as we all know, Scottish pounds aren't legal tender 😉 ). As I've suggested Scotland is free to continue using the pound after independence, but with no control over the levers - what is ruled out is a currency union. Of course rUK wouldn't deliberately scupper the pound, but they might do things which aren't in Scotland's interests, and more importantly Scotland wouldn't actually have proper independent control of its economy.

Well, we'd still have 100% of the revenue to worry about, instead of the 30% we currently receive.

You currently get 100% of the revenue and then some extra money.

True, but...
Scotland has been sending money south for most of the past 40 years
That^

Which is completely irrelevant when considering the current effect of the deficit - that's been and gone.

Ok, you got me - we'll continue to send the whisky*, irn-bru, deep fried chocolate bars, shortbread & Broons annuals down south...

You can take the piss if you like, but rUK is still not only Scotland's biggest export market, it's the majority of Scotland's export market.

You can take the piss if you like, but rUK is still not only Scotland's biggest export market, it's the majority of Scotland's export market.

Cheers, so where will rUK get all these things from post split instead - US & Australia?

Let them have their "Freeeeeeddddooommmmmmmmmmm.......!!!"

Then maybe we can drop the archaic concept of changing the bloody clocks in a few days time & plunging the country into darkness for the next 6 months!!!!...

👿

mrlebowski - Member
Let them have their "Freeeeeeddddooommmmmmmmmmm.......!!!"

Then maybe we can drop the archaic concept of changing the bloody clocks in a few days time & plunging the country into darkness for the next 6 months!!!!...

Yep, how dare we - those uppity Jocks again...

Yep, how dare we - those uppity Jocks again...

5 million holding more than 55 million to ransom sound fair to you?

I know it's highly unlikely that the UK will ever stop this outdated practice of changing the clocks to make everybody more miserable......but it still boils my p1ss!

Ducks, given that its been three days since Jambas was on here, what was the point of the shin-grazer?

mrlebowski
5 million holding more than 55 million to ransom sound fair to you?

I know it's highly unlikely that the UK will ever stop this outdated practice of changing the clocks to make everybody more miserable......but it still boils my p1ss!

Seems fair from deepest darkest Glasgow - that's the trade off we get in return for all the money* & shortbread we send down to Westminster innit 😉

*Scottish £1 notes, just to annoy everyone - every time a Scottish person heads south, Nicola Sturgeon personally gives them a dozen just to piss English shopkeepers off & tells 'em to shout loudly about "legal tender" if questioned about their authenticity... 😆

NO doubt the economic argument for independence is not strong right now. As for that 15 billion - its less than that 'cos of accounting nonsense but no doubt a Scotland independent now would have some tough times ahead with horrible deficits. Most folk who back independence understand that. Long term an independent Scotland looks a much better prospect economically and don't forget - because Scotland economy is so small it would not take a huge number of companies expanding or relocating to Scotland to make a serious difference.

One thing that would make a difference potentially is the outcome of the negotiations. things like the £ and the reserve functions of the bank of england - Scotland owns 9% of that. rUK plays hardball then iScotland takes non of the debt. Without the debt the deficit looks much more manageable.

The whole thing is a bloody stupid mess. The obvious answer is a properly federal UK with a functioning democracy within the EU.

*bangs head on wall*

It would be ironic for wee nippy to have to implement the required anti-austerity measures required to put an iS on a stable footing. It might be worth just to watch that except that unlike her, I base my analysis on what is best for the Scottish people. 😉

[quote=mcj78 ]Cheers, so where will rUK get all these things from post split instead - US & Australia?

Who knows? Maybe we'll get less of them, maybe production of some will move a few miles south, but to imagine independence would have no effect on trade is naive.

Margins would be nailed for starters

Scottish £1 notes, just to annoy everyone - every time a Scottish person heads south, Nicola Sturgeon personally gives them a dozen just to piss English shopkeepers off & tells 'em to shout loudly about "legal tender" if questioned about their authenticity...

They aren't

Are Scottish & Northern Ireland banknotes "legal tender"?
In short ‘No’ these banknotes are not "legal tender"; furthermore, Bank of England banknotes are only legal tender in England and Wales.

[url= https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/132687 ]A petition to call for a referendum to vote Scotland out of the UK.[/url]

I've signed 😀

Don't tempt me...

no doubt a Scotland independent now would have some tough times ahead with horrible deficits. Most folk who back independence understand that

Really? Because the SNP were telling everyone they would be £1100 per person better off before the last referendum.

Long term an independent Scotland looks a much better prospect economically

Why?

and don't forget - because Scotland economy is so small it would not take a huge number of companies expanding or relocating to Scotland to make a serious difference.

Or leaving and your deeper in the red.

[i]Really[/i] -Yes.

[i]Why[/i] - control on the levers of the economy, oil ( they are not making any more) and a well educated workforce with plentiful green energy. If Denmark and Holland can be prosperous countries then why not Scotland?

[i]Or leaving[/i] indeed

bencooper - Member

A petition to call for a referendum to vote Scotland out of the UK.

I've signed

If you look at the map, it's almost all people from Scotland thats signed! 😆

Why - control on the levers of the economy, oil ( they are not making any more) and a well educated workforce with plentiful green energy. If Denmark and Holland can be prosperous countries then why not Scotland?

Fingers crossed for you there's some joined up thinking going on.....otherwise you're on a wing & a prayer with the rest of us....

Really -Yes.

Why - control on the levers of the economy, oil ( they are not making any more) and a well educated workforce with plentiful green energy. If Denmark and Holland can be prosperous countries then why not Scotland?

Or leaving indeed

I'd almost like to get independence just to see the lefty green ****s that voted for it get all het up and start crying as the SNP approve fracking to attempt to claw back some of the horrendous deficit we'd have.

Also, educated workforce, well that was true, now, thanks to the Nats policies of absolutely ****ing up the schools and even having them literally fall down, the output from them isn't especially stunning anymore. A lot of them can't even read.

Controlling the levers in a helicopter with no rotor blades isn't going to help the bloody thing climb into the sky.

Nats. ****ing idiots. Away and paint your face with some woad and watch Braveheart again, the rest of us are busy.

If you look at the map, it's almost all people from Scotland thats signed!

Gerrymandering your own petition

I assume it's part of the PITA strategy

@deev that school was built under a labour government, to standards overseen by a labour council

you make it sound like it was one school in one area. Im a Tory anyway so can't stand Labour or the Nats. Still, at least Labour have ideals beyond arbitrary lines on maps.

Nats. **** idiots. Away and paint your face with some woad and watch Braveheart again, the rest of us are busy.

The schools falling down is nowt to do with the SNP

Ok, you got me - we'll continue to send the whisky*, irn-bru, deep fried chocolate bars, shortbread & Broons annuals down south & you guys keep sending up the good old English tea & scones, vats of coronation chicken, bunting, morris dancers and the juicy Westminster scandals we all love reading about & we'll all carry on with a stiff upper lip and forget that the EU will be doing the exact same thing to the UK post article 50 triggerment (we'll make up our own language as well)...

It's a toughie...

*the revenue from which has always been listed under UK exports, as opposed to featuring on the tartan tax return, hasn't it?

Ah, the return of the whisky tax myth...

[url= https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/meme-busting-whisky-and-the-non-existent-export-duty/ ]Grievance-mongering 101[/url]

mrlebowski - Member
Let them have their "Freeeeeeddddooommmmmmmmmmm.......!!!"

Actually that's what it's all about.

Freedom. We've been wanting it for long before Braveheart came out and gave us a parody of Wallace.

Please explain your opposition to freedom? You North Korean?

I think Brexit has shown that it is a popular concept in England too...

Nats. **** idiots. Away and paint your face with some woad and watch Braveheart again, the rest of us are busy.

What I don't get is why so many Unionists are so [i]angry[/i]. I mean some independence supporters are - the Scottish Resistance bloke springs to mind - but frothing-at-the-mouth sweary hatred is really a Unionist thing, why is that?

It's the kind of visceral hatred most normal people reserve for the Tories 😀

[quote=epicyclo ]I think Brexit has shown that it is a popular concept in England too...

Ah, so now you're aligning yourself with the Brexiteers. Well done.

aracer - Member
Ah, so now you're aligning yourself with the Brexiteers. Well done.

I respect their right to take their country out of the EU.

But no, I am not aligning with them, I want my country to stay in (for now).

[quote=epicyclo ]I respect their right to take their country out of the EU.

Despite it being a clearly rubbish thing to do, that most of the people voting to do so haven't got a clue what they were voting for and were doing so on the basis of lies and that it won't even achieve the results they were hoping for? You're suggesting it's like Scottish Independence?

Please explain your opposition to freedom? You North Korean?

?

When I said this:

Fingers crossed for you there's some joined up thinking going on.....otherwise you're on a wing & a prayer with the rest of us....

I await your apology..

Good to see the same old sneering jibes getting thrown around. Deep fried this, tartan that, face painting freedom chasers etc etc. Strange that the same people struggle to understand why so many want to break ties with them.

The schools falling down is nowt to do with the SNP

...indeed nothing ever is, its time someone blamed Fatcha instead. Duckie only mentioned her in passing.

Why do those stereotypes exist km?

Why do those stereotypes exist km?

I don't know, is it because it's a part of the psyche of the English to make sneering jibes about other Nationalities?

Oh I see. Thank you for clearing that up.

Was the national generalisation about people making national generalisational intentional or something that all Scots do

(pun intended BTW)

Good to see the same old sneering jibes getting thrown around. Deep fried this, tartan that, face painting freedom chasers etc etc. Strange that the same people struggle to understand why so many want to break ties with them.

You're not very good at taking a joke are you?

Quiet frankly - be on your way. I care not one jot whether Scotland stays or goes. I think you'll be FUBARED unfortunately..

You're not very good at taking a joke are you?

Jokes are supposed to be funny, and when you hear the same ones everyday, multiple times a day at someone else's expense they cease to be jokes.

Jokes are supposed to be funny, and when you hear the same ones everyday, multiple times a day at someone else's expense they cease to be jokes.

Grow a thicker skin - I still think it's funny!

And Englishmen, Irishmen and Weslmen (the last two do exist BTW) walked into a bar..

[quote=km79 ]Good to see the same old sneering jibes getting thrown around. Deep fried this...

so far as I can work out, this is where "deep fried" was introduced to this thread (at least recently):

[quote=mcj78 ]Ok, you got me - we'll continue to send the whisky*, irn-bru, deep fried chocolate bars

...he seems to be on your side though (I'd suggest he had a SoH, but it seems that might go down the wrong way)

😆

Aye, but it's nae joke I tell yee 😉

The schools were built under Jack McConnell's Labour administration. Using PFI. Building standards should have been overseen by the relevant local authorities.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-26834110
No one comes out of this with any credit

Ok, you got me - we'll continue to send the whisky*, irn-bru, deep fried chocolate bars

Whisky maybe, but virtually no one down south wants irun-bru or deep fried anything. S

I disagree dragon. Deep fried haddock from Fife takes some beating (although that probably has more to do with the freshness of the fish 😉 )

Stop it the pair of you, I'm getting hungry and drouthy.

I'm thinking whitebait THM - the only thing I've ever used a deep fat frier for.

aracer - Member
'I respect their right to take their country out of the EU.'
Despite it being a clearly rubbish thing to do, that most of the people voting to do so haven't got a clue what they were voting for and were doing so on the basis of lies and that it won't even achieve the results they were hoping for? You're suggesting it's like Scottish Independence?

No it's not like Scottish independence.

With independence we get rid of the hugely undemocratic burden of the British state. You poor folk in England will still have it.

There is something deeply wrong with a system of govt that allows a reduction in the number of elected representatives to "save money" while actively increasing the number of unelected members of the govt, ie House of Lords.

@tjagain "As for that 15 billion - its less than that 'cos of accounting nonsense"

The 14.8 billion is from the GERS figure published by the Scottish Government (not "westmonster" or whatever).

If you want to argue that the figures are manipulated in any significant way to make the scottish economy look bad (and independence economically unviable) you should probably take it up with the Scottish Government statisticians who produce them.

If I seem to be emphasising that the figures are produced by the Scottish Government under the authority of Nicola Sturgeon, then you can assume its deliberate.

The emphasis seems justified because its a fact that seems to get lost in the discussion (particularly by people like Wings over Scotland, Alex Salmond, Pete Wishart and various other SNP MSPs/MPs)

[quote=epicyclo ]No it's not like Scottish independence.

I thought it was all about Freedom - just like Scottish Independence. At least that was what you were claiming earlier.

I'm not going to defend increasing the size of the HoL, but it's irrelevant to democracy - or do you think there is some sort of vote off between the HoC and the HoL and the HoL will have more power because it has more members?

airtragic
Ah, the return of the whisky tax myth...

Grievance-mongering 101

Looked at that, it seems to be drowning in the semantics of export tax v excise tax, where it's collected & by whom... however, in the comments section there's a handy link to a Scotch Whisky Association breakdown of total "tax" on whisky *edit, link no working*

According to that, the total tax paid on the price of a bottle of scotch whisky is 76% - if that's correct, you appear to be suggesting Scotland receives 76% of the revenue from all whisky produced in Scotland, or am i misunderstanding?

On the matter of deep fried items - the best chippy (as anyone in the know will attest), is this fine establishment:

[img] http://www.heraldscotland.com/resources/images/3995418/ [/img]

Deep fried pizza suppers etc. i'm not too au fait with these days, although there was a place in Glasgow that offered a large pork sausage wrapped in kebab meat, dipped in batter & deep fried - it had a rather rude name as I recall 😉

(Deep fried) Haggis supper was a staple late evening antidote to too many pints of 80/- in my youth 😉

A haggis supper flight we call that now, upmarket rebrand 😉

[quote=mcj78 ]According to that, the total tax paid on the price of a bottle of scotch whisky is 76% - if that's correct, you appear to be suggesting Scotland receives 76% of the revenue from all whisky produced in Scotland, or am i misunderstanding?

You still appear to be getting confused between export tax and excise tax - which is what that article is trying to explain (and no, it's not semantics when one of those doesn't exist). I presume the total tax paid on the price of a bottle of Bourbon is also 70-80% and none of that is sent to the US, none of the tax paid on a bottle of Vodka is sent to Russia, etc. Excise duty is a sales tax, collected in the country of consumption and part of the revenue of the country of sale. Whisky is "exported" from Scotland to England without any taxes being paid.

I'm in the wrong game - off to set up a tax-free microdistillery re-branding 40% ethanol as gin, later losers!

8)

Whisky is taxed that much - vat and duty. Both are at the point of consumption so nothing is received for exports.

Under the GERS methodology, sales in E&W are allocated tax in E&W because that's where the liability arises. Only whisky purchased in Scotland has vat and duty accrued in Scotland because that's how tax works.

An undrinkable £10 bottle of whisky includes something around £7.50 vat and duty which goes straight to the government. Similar story for other alcoholic products and petrol/diesel - only at the point of purchase by a consumer does tax become payable.

You could choose to tax exports, but that's generally quite a bad idea because economics. The main export tax is VAT and that's a mechanism to let the exporter claim back the vat they have already paid.

Going back to the schools point - this is typical in that it is nothing to do with the SNP - Labour / lib dems in Holyrood and on CEC. there is plenty of things to beat the SNP with youwould think - so why so often do the SNPs critics do this - try to blame the SNP for things beyond their control?

Bloody Embra trams!

Poor SNP = victims and scapegoats. Sounds like karma in action to me.

indeed Duckman - again nowt to do with the SNP.

They cleverly rebrand PFI as NPD and fool the gullible into thinking they are doing anything difference. It must be great being a Scottish politician - you can get away with murder!!

Is THM [i]still[/i] answering my posts? I don't see them THM.

It really amuses me this tho - that people blame the SNP for things completely outwith their control / that happened before they came to power but miss the open goals of the SNP mistakes.

You seem to be in a conversation with him anyway. Is this a Fight Club thing?

Is THM still answering my posts?

No - just being entertained by them. Its a close run thing with Jambas. High score draw at the moment.

not really 5th. He may be answering me, I do not see his posts. At best its an illdirected monologue

THM I assume its a mere coincidence that he mentioned the SNP - and no one else has on this page- and you replied two post later mentioning the SNP and someone thought you were responding to him
No wonder so many of us were confused into thinking you wer replying to him.

Serendipity does throw up such unusual events and glad you have clarified it for us as its well established you dont lie on here at all. Given you are not responding this confusion will clearly never ever happen again which will be a relief to all concerned and the mods in particular.
We are lucky you are so honest and upfront about what you do as it shall end the confusion now.

Is this a Fight Club thing?

😆