Scotland Indyref 2

When did the election results in scotland last decide an election result for the UK?

2010 - we got a coalition instead of a Tory majority.

2015 - Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

2015 - Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

With only 1 Scottish MP the Tories would have got a UK majority without him. The only big difference in Scotland was the SNP tsking other non Tory seats.

If Labour had taken every Scottish seat there would still have been a Tory govt.

The inability of Labour to take Englush seats and the inability of the Lib Dems to hold seats let the Tories win their majority.

No one is saying that, so why pose the question. Its irrelevant.

Because if you're prepared to admit that at least some businesses will move to Scotland then we agree on that point and then it's just a question of numbers.

I think it will be enough to offset some of the loss of trade to the UK. You think it won't be enough. Neither one of us is working with a great deal of solid information so all we have is our ill-informed opinions.

So unless you've got some evidence to show that an insignificant number of businesses would relocate maybe you should tone down your scorn for other people's opinions.

Other people's ill-informed views are just as valid as yours, I'm afraid. Being a dick about presenting your opinions doesn't make you right, it just makes you a dick.

I think it will be enough to offset some of the loss of trade to the UK. You think it won't be enough. Neither one of us is working with a great deal of solid information so all we have is our ill-informed opinions.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis.. But as you said yesterday they result in tough answers and dont make you Mt Happy. Life really isnt fair is it?

If you want to call falsification of non-points "scorn", then so be it. The solution? Stick to sensible points rather than vague scenarios and, more importantly, the facts - accepting that having to listen to SNP groupthink might make that challenging.

Yours at large

Dickie xxx

molgrips
Maybe people are pro SNP for the same reasons they were pro Brexit in England? Lashing out at the establishment?

If Scotland leaves the UK and remains / joins the EU, I don't see Scotland being more attractive to business than anywhere else in the EU.
Native English isn't an advantage anymore, the language skills in most European capital is superb. transport and other infrastructure across European capitals are superior. If there's an exodus of business it will have lots of more attractive opportunities elsewhere in the EU.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis..

Thanks for that, I just spat out my Ovaltine.

As you were 😀

Native English isn't an advantage anymore, the language skills in most European capital is superb. transport and other infrastructure across European capitals are superior. If there's an exodus of business it will have lots of more attractive opportunities elsewhere in the EU.

Not only that, but as with Ireland, logistics becomes a real issue, as anyone who has sailed Rosyth to Zeebrugge will tell you, and the only other option becomes travelling through a non EU/single market country (rUK) to get there, so two sets of customs, paperwork galore. Being based in Ireland or Scotland for anything but service industries would be a nightmare.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis.

Citing facts without providing any evidence to back it up and pouring scorn on those who don't accept your fact, doesn't stw have a name for that? Jimbofact or something?

Ffs let's not do this again.

Saying a safe labour seat in Scotland is different to one in Wales or England is nationalism. SE Wales also doesn't have the government it voted for. Boo hoo, that's democracy. You don't always win. You're wanting special treatment because you're Scottish.

Ok so I am trolling a bit but the question is fundamentally that you believe you are a different nation. So let's make it clear. It's nothing to do with faulty representation within the UK system. You live in a UK constituency and you get one Westminster MP, same as everyone else. Except not, because you have an MSP too.

Re language - it's not just that, it's working practices too. And transport links too.

I wonder how so many companies manage to survive in Scotland just now then. It must only be because we are living next door to somewhere full of wonderful business people who can thrive no matter the political situation. A tiny bit of that must be rubbing off on us. We could never sustain any success at all without the guiding hand of our neighbors. Neighbors who are much more attractive to companies than Scotland. By god you are a patronising bunch of cocks.

molgrips - Member
...Boo hoo, that's democracy. You don't always win. You're wanting special treatment because you're Scottish...

Yes, we want special treatment - the same special treatment as all the other small nations in the world, the right to self determination.

km79 nails it. The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

[quote=km79 ]I wonder how so many companies manage to survive in Scotland just now then. It must only be because we are living next door to somewhere full of wonderful business people who can thrive no matter the political situation. A tiny bit of that must be rubbing off on us. We could never sustain any success at all without the guiding hand of our neighbors. Neighbors who are much more attractive to companies than Scotland. By god you are a patronising bunch of cocks.

[img] [/img]

Having lots of successful companies in Scotland at the moment (most of whom I imagine are serving the Scottish market, but for those exporting goods more of them are exporting to rUK than anywhere else) does not provide any evidence that companies are more likely to want to move there from rUK than to any other EU country full of successful companies.

teamhurtmore - Member
2015 - Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

ahh the year the english people couldn't stomach the thought of a labour gov backed by as scottish party! 😆 hence the tory majority!

epicyclo - Member

The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

stop talking balls.

epicyclo - Member

km79 nails it. The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Around 50% of Scottish people must be pretty conflicted then....

[quote=seosamh77 ]

epicyclo - Member
The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Aha, time for us English folk to bow out of this thread and leave them to it?

epicyclo - Member

The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Is it ****. There is definitely an element of xenophobia (as demonstrated in the last election campaign) but fundamentally? No. Racist? No. Gens una sumus. This is the last place we want to go.

aracer - Member
Aha, time for us English folk to bow out of this thread and leave them to it?

Don't do that, if anything turns me against scottish independence it'll be an epicyclo, chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist takeover.

Thankfully that's not the main driver of it, imo.

Epicyclo a "chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist" You really do not understand do you. Epicyclo is simply believes that Scotland is a nation and should have self determination. His position is by no means extreme.

He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

[quote="Sturgeon"]

And I will make sure that Scotland gets that chance ( [i]a second referendum[/i]). And let us be clear about this, too. If that moment does arise, it will not be because the 2014 result hasn’t been respected. It will be because the promises made to Scotland in 2014 have been broken.

“There are many no voters now looking at the Brexit vote with real dismay and wondering if independence might be the best option for Scotland after all.”

“Make no mistake, the threat to our economy is not just the prospect of losing our place in the single market – disastrous though that would be.

“It is also the deeply damaging – and utterly shameful – message that the Tories’ rhetoric about foreign workers is sending to the world. More than ever, we need to tell our European friends that Scotland is open for business.

“And let me be crystal clear about this – we cannot trust the likes of Boris Johnson and Liam Fox to do that for us.”

I think it's "The opposition to Scottish Independence is fundamentally racist" that we're objecting to, not that Scotland is a nation.

tjagain - Member
Epicyclo a "chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist" You really do not understand do you. Epicyclo is simply believes that Scotland is a nation and should have self determination. His position is by no means extreme.

I understand perfectly fine, I've read his views for 3 years on scottish independence, he's exactly as I describe.

[quote=aracer ]He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

Point of order:
SIDEBAR
can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?

Really can you ?
Genuine q as not been following the thread at all
all the ones i can think of are really rather racist

Surely we say nationalist to differentiate a nationalist from a racist and then ultra nationalist to indicate they have crossed a line

I also think its an unfair and inaccurate description of the person on here as well

Bruce - its a daft thing to say like that but there is certainly a strong tinge of racism underlying a lot of the nationalist sentiment we hear but to think Epicylo is some sort of raving loony ultra nationalist simply shows a lack of understanding of the whole Scottish political scene

*klaxon sounds*

TJ - step away from the political thread

*klaxon sounds*

TJ - step away from the political thread

tjagain - Member
but to think Epicylo is some sort of raving loony ultra nationalist simply shows a lack of understanding of the whole Scottish political scene

You could probably get a medal at the Olympics for that leap. 😆

Junkyard - lazarus
aracer » He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

Point of order:
SIDEBAR
can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?
Really can you ?
Genuine q as not been following the thread at all
all the ones i can think of are really rather racist

Surely we say nationalist to differentiate a nationalist from a racist and then ultra nationalist to indicate they have crossed a line

I also think its an unfair and inaccurate description of the person on here as well

I'd refer to an ultranationalist as a blind nationalist. Whether racism is a crucial factor in that, I'd doubt, but it's not uncommon.

In a scottish context I'd refer to an ultra nationalist as the flag waving, propaganda supping, highland clearance waffling, saor alba-ist.

If thats your definition then thats around 30% or so of the population of scotland that are ultra nationalists. I prefer to call them Ideological nationalists
*klaxon goes.......................*

It really does bug me that epicyclo thinks he's oppressed by a government he doesn't want and has the right to one he does, whereas I have to put up with Tories because I'm not Scottish and I deserve Tories.

**** you, frankly. Just as much Tory opposition where I live and in other parts of the UK.

Well now you're just arguing semantics!

tjagain - Member
If thats your definition then thats around 30% or so of the population of scotland that are ultra nationalists. I prefer to call them Ideological nationalists
*klaxon goes.......................*

[quote=molgrips ]It really does bug me that epicyclo thinks he's oppressed by a government he doesn't want and has the right to one he does, whereas I have to put up with Tories because I'm not Scottish and I deserve Tories.
**** you, frankly. Just as much Tory opposition where I live and in other parts of the UK.
Still not clear about the concept of a country vs a region then? Let's get it clear- if there was the same amount of opposition to the Tory across England as in Scotland then there wouldn't be a Tory government.

Its his attitude* as much as anything else. As if sharing nationality (which I don't anyway) means I deserve it. As if all English are Tories.

* and yours too apparently

@molgrips - personally I'm still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven't got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since - well I can't actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

Junkyard - lazarus

can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?

I reckon so. Nationalism doesn't have to have any racial tint at all. Like, my limited experience of non-french canadian nationalist zoomers is that they're incredibly inclusive zoomers, as long as you get being canadian. You can come from the moon and as long as you understand what a 2 line pass is it's all good. (no doubt there are awful canadian nationalists but that's not the point, these dudes are the proof of concept)

For your scottish nutters, there's definitely some that are outright racist and ime more that are xenophobic (and obviously a lot specifically anti-english) but there's equally a lot of "scottishness is a frame of mind" sort of stuff. I reckon I see more of that than most with my work, academia is full of outward looking scottish nationalism, I wouldn't assume it's typical but it's the sort I identify with and see most of day to day. There's a limit to how racist the 75% of SNP voters who want to stay in Europe can be really. Maybe typify it as people who want their country to be better rather than people who believe it couldn't possibly be better.

(one of the fiercest scottish nationalists I know is english, he moved here probably 20, 25 years ago and this is a quote, "Scotland is what would happen if England could learn from mistakes". Another is a new zealander and I remember when he was one of my lecturers, the first thing he said was that he'd be going home to the big island real soon. 20 years ago... He married a norn irish protestant and now he's scottish by adoption, or contagion possibly. But then he says scotland is just new zealand with worse weather and better career prospects.)

aracer - Member
@molgrips - personally I'm still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven't got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since - well I can't actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

The Scottish question isn't about democracy, it's about whether Scotland wants to go a different route all by itself, for good or bad, and whether it fundamentally disagrees with Westminster's direction enough to break off and go with a smaller democratic grouping and decide it's own fate..

Scotland within the uk isn't undemocratic.

Still not clear about the concept of a country vs a region then? Let's get it clear- if there was the same amount of opposition to the Tory across England as in Scotland then there wouldn't be a Tory government.

personally I'm still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven't got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since - well I can't actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

At some point we have to decide at what point a geographical block is governed;country is the fairly standard yardstick by which we do this.
It seems to confuse non scots though for some reason

Appreciate the answers re ultra- nationalism

I dont go home often enough to know and its not something i discuss with relatives.

i guess it also depends on your definition of ultra-nationalist.

I understand the argument JY, but it seems to need reprising because some people don't understand that irrespective of that there is nothing at all undemocratic about how Scotland is represented in governments. Of course if they become independent then the democracy will be different, but there will still be people unrepresented in the government which has to take decisions for the whole of the territory it rules.

It's kind of a side point though - for me the fundamental issue is whether being ruled from Holyrood rather than Westminster will make a substantive difference (let alone a positive one) to people's lives, or whether it's just an ideological thing. I have to admit I've become even more cynical about democracy recently!

aracer - Member
have to admit I've become even more cynical about democracy recently!

The issue of Sottish independence is an interesting one and there are plenty of things to discuss, but it should be much more than 'piss of English Tory scum' which is what it seems sometimes.

Leave democracy and political alignment out of it. As part of the UK you are represented the same as everyone else. Whether or not you want to be part of the UK is a different issue.

And I do think Sturgeon is using the Brexit vote to increase anti unionist sentiment for her own cause. Brexit has pushed all remainers away from government, and oh look what a happy coincidence...

So let's make it clear. It's nothing to do with faulty representation within the UK system. You live in a UK constituency and you get one Westminster MP, same as everyone else. Except not, because you have an MSP too.

🙂

@km I'm curious as to where you are thinking of going post Brexit, I say so a eurosceptism is strong and growing throughout Europe as is being reflected in increasingly right leaning election results esp in France, Austria, Holland and even in Germany (no benefits for EU citizens for 5 years).

The SNP are consumate opportunists as Indy Ref 2 provides a perfect distration from their failings in Government. The "lie" accusation is tried and tested (and well used by STWers too). The EU is a topical means to an end. All May has to do is hold firm for a few years and the impending EU financial implosion will wipe that argument away. Of course by that stage the SNP will have come up with something else