To be honest I am pretty ashamed of English nationalism as I think it is pretty much as TJ describes, however whilst I do believe many of the more educated Scottish voters do believe in everything TJ has said I also think many Scottish Nationalists are no better than English Nationalists with the added unpleasantness of anti English sentiment as well. The whole hatred of Westminster does bleed into anti Englishness which and a lot of the it's not the English we don't like feels a bit I'm not racist but or some of my best friends are black.
Someone asked further up the thread why many English people who acknowledge the fiscal support Scotland gets from the rUk but still don't want independence. Simple answer is we'd rather be part of a bigger whole, don't like artificial division and believe that redistribution of wealth is a good thing. We also don't want to see our fellow countrymen making a massive mistake (in our opinion) And live to regret it.
many Scottish Nationalists are no better than English Nationalists with the added unpleasantness of anti English sentiment as well.
there is certainly that fringe but I would refute its "many"
I have a very English name, a very English accent but its something I really never see any more. The most unsavory bunch in all this are the Rangers fans ( unionists / sectarian) - but I do not consider them to be indicative of the unionist side
Its been changing over the years at least in part because of the leadership of the SNP who will not tolerate anti englishness. Of course back in the 70s I lived in Glasgow - now in the rather more gentile Edinburgh but my impression is the anti englishness is less year on year
The unionist side make a huge play on this but actually? Not a huge issue
We also don’t want to see our fellow countrymen making a massive mistake (in our opinion) And live to regret it.
That's very unselfish of you, but would you acknowledge that those folk have the right to make their own choice?
@Bigndaft I don’t think you have answered Duckmans question.
He didn't answer mine either, the one when he told us that the Euro was purely there to keep a low value currency for German exports. So I pointed out:
1 Sterling has lost value against the Euro since it was created
2 Scotland exports a higher percentage than the UK as a whole
That’s very unselfish of you, but would you acknowledge that those folk have the right to make their own choice?
I thought they had recently. How often do you want the choice, every year until you get 50% +1 vote?
. So I pointed out:
1 Sterling has lost value against the Euro since it was created
2 Scotland exports a higher percentage than the UK as a whole
Apologies, joining the euro is a perfectly decent choice, it enables early EU membership although I imagine that the EU might not be happy if you unilaterally adopted it. There may be export advantages etc etc.
I just wonder why it's not SNP policy if it is such a great idea? Are there any downsides? Why is it a vote loser? Or is that down to the right wing press and Westminster bogeymen?
TBH anything is better than the "transitional pound" taken into EU membership tripe.
Stumpyjhon - thats so kind of you to try to protect me.
That’s very unselfish of you, but would you acknowledge that those folk have the right to make their own choice?
I agree 100%. However in every election and referendum in history (as far as I'm aware) the majority of Scottish people have voted for parties in favour of carrying on as one of the partners in the UK. That may change, but at the moment history overwhelmingly suggests no appetite for independence.
However in every election and referendum in history (as far as I’m aware) the majority of Scottish people have voted for parties in favour of carrying on as one of the partners in the UK.
How many Holyrood elections do the SNP need to win?
history overwhelmingly suggests no appetite for independence.
History also suggests no appetite for a Labour government at Westminster. Should we give up on general elections too?
How many Holyrood elections do the SNP need to win?
I worded my sentence very carefully and stand by it. In every election single election the majority of voters have voted for parties in favour of staying in the UK.
History also suggests no appetite for a Labour government at Westminster. Should we give up on general elections too?
We should but for different reasons, and that's a whole other thread. My point is that the SNP are demanding something that the majority of Scottish people have never wanted. If that changes fair enough, but at the moment there's no evidence for it.
Westminster is doing exactly what the Scottish people have requested, which ironically is what the SNP always complain about.
the SNP are demanding something that the majority of Scottish people have never wanted
18 (or is it 19 now) opinion polls in a row say otherwise.
Ultimately Scottish independence will bring some challenges, none are insurmountable and but they will be there.
No point in denying that. And people should consider the challenges when the time comes to vote again.
Whether those challenges should influence a vote, is up to the person, there probably won't be definitive answers to a lot of them.
scotroutes and TJ, is it beyond your comprehension that someone south of the border might care about what happens to people north of it. Were not all imperialist colonials.
Of course people have the right to make choices, in the same way people have the right to make life choices that are astoundingly bad for them, like investing in a scam, i wouldn't sit back and say nothing in that situation either.
How many Holyrood elections do the SNP need to win?
And that's like saying everyone in the UK was desperate to leave the EU and screw the poor because FPTP gave the UK (that includes you) a Tory government.
Stumpyjon - the way you put it was incredibly patronising
Hpolyrood elections are (almost) proportional not FPTP the pro independence parties got a small majority of the seats with as kenny p points out just less than 50% of the vote. Under FPTP the snp get huge majorities - look to the Westminster election results from Scotland
18 (or is it 19 now) opinion polls in a row say otherwise.
Are you saying that opinion polls should be used to to decide government policy? If so then fair enough, but could you then answer this question. When the SNP were in power but opinion polls were showing the majority against a second referendum, why did the SNP continue to demand one?
The SNP demand that Scottish people be listened to, but when the Scottish people repeatedly vote for parties opposed to a second referendum then the SNP ignore them? Could anyone tell me why that is?
Oh and epicycle, before you say anything, it's not because MI5 and the KGB have infiltrated the upper echelons of DC Thomsons in an evil plot to have the Scottish tablet industry sold off to a sweetie shop in Colchester, or whatever theory is doing the conspiracy theory forum rounds this week.
Lolz @ Kenny.
TJ I should add, for clarity, I am very against FPTP in any election, regardless of whether the outcome suits me or not.
And that has just put me in the mood for a piece if tablet. I may not be in favour of Independence, but I am very proud of the contribution Scotland has made to fighting the dangers of overpopulation by producing delicious foods guaranteed to shorten lives!!
I agree 100%. However in every election and referendum in history (as far as I’m aware) the majority of Scottish people have voted for parties in favour of carrying on as one of the partners in the UK. That may change, but at the moment history overwhelmingly suggests no appetite for independence.
Eh are you sure about that, and if wrong will wholeheartedly support the ability of the Scottish people to select change if they wish? Because:
In 2015 General Election 51.3% of the votes cast were for SNP and Scottish Green, who both argue strongly for independence; I've not gone looking to see the opinions of the various "other" votes.
I was laughing at your epicyclo comment!
Eh are you sure about that, and if wrong will wholeheartedly support the ability of the Scottish people to select change if they wish? Because:
That's why I put "as far as I'm aware". If that was the case then fair enough, I stand corrected. But it is still just one of many.
I knew that TJ, the postings just got crossed a bit. Anyway it's wine o'clock now so whatever your views have a great Saturday night. I'm off to continue non-dry January.
The SNP demand that Scottish people be listened to, but when the Scottish people repeatedly vote for parties opposed to a second referendum then the SNP ignore them? Could anyone tell me why that is?
Kenny, if the people of Scotland really don't want another independence referendum, when balanced against all the other issues Scotland faces, they have a number of options in May. If the SNP and Greens can't achieve a majority at Holyrood the issue will be kicked down the road for another 5 years. In that regard, the same problem faces the Union in both Holyrood and Westminster - a lack of credible opposition to hold the government to account.
Kennyp: Are you saying that opinion polls should be used to to decide government policy?
Conveniently ignoring the current, populist shower in Downing Street are you? This is directly from their playbook - float an idea with Telegraph/Mail/Times from a "source at number 10" and see if it sticks.
so the stuff in the national was right
https://www.ft.com/content/842f20d4-1728-4e9f-8afd-f57228f01e8a
The trap has been laid for Johnson
You just know hes going to fall for it, ignoring the verdict of the court of session (should it go for self determination) is ambrosia for Sturgeon
Lol, 52/48. Those Brexit parallels just keep on coming don't they? 🙂
I'd rather it was a bit higher than that but I do not know how that compares to previous from the same pollsters. Others have been higher
its coming - make no mistake
nickjb
Free Member
Lol, 52/48. Those Brexit parallels just keep on coming don’t they? 🙂
brexit didnt poll higher than remain before the ref campaign
& johnson is a gift to sturgeon & co at every turn
And Sturgeons basic competence and treating us as adults is a big positive factor
My dad was a hard line unionist - to the point of campaigning for NO last time and he is full of praise for her and thinking of voting SNP and YES next time
Lol, 52/48. Those Brexit parallels just keep on coming don’t they?
Theres quite a few of us would really rather the bar was set much higher. But the precedent has been set.
johnson is a gift to sturgeon & co at every turn
Of those I know personally that have switched from no to yes, it’s the Westminster government that’s changed minds helped along by the disparaging “you not good enough to prosper outside the U.K.” mob.
Like with most political issues there are folk on both sides whose mind will not be changed. Its the floating voters in the middle who will decide. In 2014 it seems that many of the EU citizens voted NO fearing they would be out of the EU and it appears this group will now be moving to YES
its also clear that those who are sure they will vote YES have increased so the YES vote is starting from a higher base but does this mean the poll of undecideds is smaller or have people moved from NO to undecided - anecdote would say the latter
Anecdote time: I am now a certain YES voter - last time I was reluctant. Amongst my friends I know of two NO voters who would now vote YES and 3 NO voters who are now open to the idea of voting YES
The movement does appear to be pretty much one way and the polls support this
I know of no one who has moved from YES to NO although looking at polling there must be some
Thanks big&daft, and glad to see that we both haven't an issue with adopting the Euro. That's parked that issue (as we both know compromises are available - see Northern Ireland & Brexit).
I feel the handling of the pandemic by Westminster highlights how Scotland could be better off within the UK. I just don't relate to breaking free from a colonial yoke that impoverishes people when the generosity of the British Treasury has been unbounding?
Definitely sick of the 'neverendum' now and feel the government should just get on with the day job.
Scotland seems badly divided now more than ever, one group against another. It distorts and embitters politics and prevents good governance.
You keep coming up with anti independence rhetoric and how bad seeking independence is, or getting it will be.
Perhaps you can demonstrate this with an existing example.
Surely if independence is so bad, then out of the 62 countries that have become independent from the UK, at least half must be seeking to come under its benign management again?
Or if that's too hard, maybe one?
Or maybe you could pull an example out of the independent ex Iron Curtain countries wanting to return to the warm bosom of Mother Russia?
Most of those countries had to face far more difficult transitions than Scotland will. Why are Scots less capable?
Independence is normal for a nation.
2014 55% of those who voted wanted to remain in the UK
2016 62% of those who voted wanted to remain in the EU
One can’t have both it appears, folk are going to have to choose - but those numbers don’t look great for Britain.
Lotto
do you live in Scotland? Not snarky but looking for info
when the generosity of the British Treasury has been unbounding?
Simply not so. Even of the massaged figures over time Scotland has paid much more into the UK treasury than it receives - its only the last few years that its been the other way round and as per many previous discussions the figures used underestimate scots income.
Definitely sick of the ‘neverendum’ now and feel the government should just get on with the day job.
You do realise that the unionist parties mention independence far more than the SNP and that plans for a referendum last year were shelved due to covid? The very term "neverendum" is a piece of unionist propaganda. Look on scottish tory, labour and lib dem websites / faceboook pages and you see far more mention of indyref 2 than you do on the SNP site
kimbers
brexit didnt poll higher than remain before the ref campaign
Not true. In 2012 Brexyism was far higher. Support for leaving has fallen ever since with March 2017 being about the last time the Brexies would have won.
sbrexit didnt poll higher than remain before the ref campaign
& johnson is a gift to sturgeon & co at every turn
What those figures tell me is that the SNP should hire Cummings.
Lotto
Scotland seems badly divided now more than ever, one group against another. It distorts and embitters politics and prevents good governance.
Sounds like the UK and Brexit really.
And it hasn’t stopped since 2016.
do you live in Scotland? Not snarky but looking for info
We have houses in three parts of the UK, divide time as required for work reasons.
Apparently, that Panelbase poll didn't include 16-17 year old.
Indy supporters make much of the fact that Yes started much lower in the polls before 2014 but I think it's fair to say that there are fewer undecided/floating voters now.
Anyway, it's all moot as long as Sturgeon and Co are willing to wait for a PM to allow a Section 30 order.
I feel the handling of the pandemic by Westminster highlights how Scotland could be better off within the UK.
Lolwut? You're gonna have to explain that one.
Anyway, it’s all moot as long as Sturgeon and Co are willing to wait for a PM to allow a Section 30 order.
Posted 7 minutes ago
REPLY | REPORT
Theyve now got a plan B
https://www.ft.com/content/842f20d4-1728-4e9f-8afd-f57228f01e8a
I feel the handling of the pandemic by Westminster highlights how Scotland could be better off within the UK.
Whit troller was that?
We have houses in three parts of the UK, divide time as required for work reasons.
So you don’t actually live here, pay taxes or are eligible to vote? Therein lies one of the problems, everyone piling in telling Scotland how to run its affairs because you like to come here now and again.
2014 55% of those who voted wanted to remain in the
UKEU
2016 62% of those who voted wanted to remain in the EU
FTFM 🤪
A lot of my friends and family vote Yes, I voted no ‘to stay in the EU’...
I’m one of the would definitely change my vote due to actions of the Westminster gov...
Been through the Swiss/French-EU border, no real issue if this is required with England.
New ‘advisory’ referendum (after the pandemic) if SNP wins in May?
