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@TurnerGuy - are you seriously suggesting that you essentially reserve 50%, possibly more, of Sheffield’s (generally more affordable) housing stock for those people who don’t own a car?
Of course they were aware but the options are somewhat limited if to want to get a foot on the ladder.
Seriously, those who actually live in cities like Sheffield will understand what I’m talking about but you really need to visit them to be able to understand just how widespread such parking issues are.
It isn’t like it’s the odd street with plenty of alternative places to park but entire ‘estates’ (back in Victorian times of course they weren’t built as estates) with dozens of narrow roads and hundreds of not thousands of houses.
Such cities grew up assertions industry with high density housing but almost zero car ownership. The streets started off narrow, then had tarmac pavements added making them narrower still and only relatively recently had car ownership entered the mix.
Such cities grew up assertions industry with high density housing but almost zero car ownership. The streets started off narrow, then had tarmac pavements added making them narrower still and only relatively recently had car ownership entered the mix.
This is the problem. You can't undo a century and more of social engineering with a simple measure like this. Jobs aren't local and there is inadequate public transport. We've developed a mobile society without putting in all of the infrastructure required to operate once cars are removed from the scene. Of course, we have to start taking measures to resolve this but a total ban on pavement parking can only be one part of the solution. It will take proper, large scale infrastructure and transport projects and they're just not happening.
Oh - I reckon many streets should be altered so that they are more pedestrian friendly. Traffic calming, raised kerbs, chicanes, more cul de sacs. Make it obvious that cars are in a pedestrian zone.
@scotroutes - quite agree - the only way to reduce parking on pavements is to reduce car ownership but that will take the kind of joined up effort you describe.
For example my drive to work is about 20 mins. By bus it’d be over 2 hours and three or four buses. Some of the buses only run morning and evening so if I were on the school run I’d gave to drive and whilst yes the rest of the time I suppose I could muddle through each day on public transport, one of the reasons I stopped commuting to Manchester for a five figure higher salary is that I didn’t want to spend 4 hours commuting to work. Particularly if that commute is only 5 miles or so. It would also cost me really quite a lot of money as it would involve two bus companies so two weekly passes.
London is a good example of how it can be done though. Public transport is a viable option, they’ve joined up the overground and underground options with the Oyster card and it runs very regularly and covers a vast proportion of the city. It’s still not as good as say Tokyo though. But it is the exception and most other English cities have a barely passable offering (Birmingham and Manchester possible exceptions).
I could cycle but the route is either some very nasty dual carriageways or through estates I’d rather not cycle through - particularly in winter. This coupled to the fact there’s no cycle storage at my business park nor changing facilities make this barely an option.
If dropping car was an viable option I would. Luckily we’ve moved house now and have a large drive and garage and can comfortably park off the road. Where we used to live it was the pavement or nothing.
Just for balance, currently stood at a bus stop outside daughters workplace after dropping our one car off so the daughter can drive herself home. We're going in to derby to do a bit of shopping and maybe the pub. Guess what the ****y bus service is so far 18 mins late. Public transport my arse!!!!
Danny
You don't have to absolutely park on the pavement. There is always other options.
You don’t have to absolutely park on the pavement. There is always other options.
Sometimes there isn't, not in any reasonable practical way for many people. But just keep arguing and repeating yourself over and over and over TJ.
@tjagain - you’re absolutely right. Where I live there are three other options. Don’t have a car or for both sides of the road to park on the road and completely block it or park perhaps more than a mile away and walk but then that won’t be feasible if everyone did it as you’d be trying to park thousands of cars on just a handful of streets.
Those are the only options; none of which are entirely practical for many people. If I’ve missed a practical option let me know.
I have to ask - have you ever been to a Northern industrial town or city and driven the back streets?
So the way round your whataboutary is.
The street becomes one way
The street allows one side of the road to be parked on.
Yes it Half's the number of parking spaces.
The car is the problem not the soliton here. It takes just one car on the pavement to trap someone in a wheel chair in their house.
I've seen cars parked literally stopping able bodied people getting out their houses .
If people were able to apply rule No1 there wouldn't be a need for this but since people think the pavement is game for parking (and importantly they knew they had to do it when they chose to buy there) small narrow cars are availible if their car is essential....
Or to put it another way there are certainly options for individuals round our way. Where I used to live sure, I could park on a winter street but it wouldn’t work en mass. There are simply too many cars belonging to residents who live on narrow streets.
Take Parson Cross Road I mentioned earlier for example. Must be 120 houses on there, the road is at a guess somewhere between 2-2.5m wide, the pavement less than a metre. The adjoining roads are a similar width or narrower.
The only road wide enough is the main A61 Halifax Rd but one sure of that is double yellows, the other has houses all the way up and has heavy parking restrictions morning and night.
So where / how do you suggest these couple of thousand cars that the residents own on the narrow streets live on?
Short of getting rid of the cars there is no alternative.
@trail_rat - not all roads can be one way and you still have the issue of too many surplus cars to park elsewhere.
I’m not disputing car ownership is taken for granted, oftentimes it is, but its where we are.
Where I am there are plenty of roads where even narrow cars aren’t the answer. You’d still have to at least part park on the pavement.
The more sensible solution seems to be to stop people parking like cocks be it on the pavement or otherwise.
The car is the problem not the soliton here. It takes just one car on the pavement to trap someone in a wheel chair in their house.
precisely. Or someone partially sighted/blind who now has to venture into the road.
And cars are getting ever bigger - look at all the 4x4 SUVs around in cities where they will never go off road and there are other smaller cars around with more actual internal space but they just won't impress the neighbours so much.
The point stands that they knew the parking situation when they signed on the line.
Car convienance should never take priority over pedestrian safety.
Just because we are there doesn't mean we should continue down this path.
What your telling me is that large parts of Sheffield is not suitable for modern wants.
Look up Japanese kei cars.
part park on the pavement
which is fine as long as there is a minium width for pedestrians.
Maybe car tax for these areas needs to go up to encourage people to use city sized cars ? Rent a bigger car when they need it.
not all roads can be one way and you still have the issue of too many surplus cars to park elsewhere.
do cul-de-sacs represent a large percentage of roads in sheffield ?
Problem: too many cars, not enough space on the road
Solution: give them the pavements too
^ how on earth is that the right solution?
New problem: too many more cars, not enough space on the pavement
Solution: ?
**** it just go full Nigeria.
Drive on the pavements too.
Safest. Place to walk in port Harcourt is often the middle of the road. The pavements the only moving bit at rush hour.
In all seriousness. Permit parking on the roads on the basis of genuine need -disability/first responder/ Oncall fire fighter.
Rest of you park in a(more secure than currently) park and ride on the city limits- certainly the ones round Aberdeen are empty almost all the time.....and it's a solution thats been proven to work in various European cities.
which is fine as long as there is a minium width for pedestrians.
Which is what exactly?
When my 2 daughters were younger we had a double width pushchair. There were plenty of times close to my house when drivers probably thought they had left enough room, but I would have to take the push chair onto the road.
I’m guessing the people who suggest not to park on the pavement don’t live in houses where it’s a necessity (assuming car ownership to stay at current levels).
As others have said though this thread is nothing without pictures. To follow...
So a couple of side streets near me. Yes we can take it as read that the residents knew the streets were narrow but I’m not sure what the suggestion is here? That they either go without a car or live somewhere with wider streets? Neither, given the current state of public transport and cost of housing with drives and garages etc, are a practical option.
As you can see - there’s no way they can, in any practical sense, not park on the pavement.
There are literally hundreds and hundreds of roads like this in Sheffield. Given the city’s proximity to the Peaks I’d be interested where all this out of town parking would be sited and even if there were plenty of it you then assume a decent transport link.
For those asking for pics of roads where pavement parking is the only option:
This road (and the one next to it, running parrallel) has permit parking on one side. No parking on the other side during the day, 9-5, outside these hours it's fine. Each house is the width of a car. so there's enough room for 0.5 cars per house in the permit parking spaces.
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The next road over, is identical. Ok, how about the next road in the other direction? Allocated parking, on one side, and double yellows on the other. Always full. So that's both roads either side not possible. Next, next roads? One is a main road through the one-way system, so no. The next next road on the other side? Occasional permit parking spaces, single yellow on the other side. So, again, nope.
But, hang on - there's a car park over the main road, isn't there?
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Well, there was... It's now being built into flats.
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There's 100 houses on each of the 2 roads like this, so if we say 1 car per house, and there's only parking on one side of the road, where are the other 100 cars suppose to park?
Public transport isn't a real solution for many people, especially those with small children. These houses are full of young families (my sister and borther-in-law lived there with their 2 kids for a number of years, they had 1 car), and not owning a car makes life incredibly difficult.
Well tell you what that shows. Everyone in those streets needs a car for safety. Since there's no safe way to walk out those streets.
Are you saying that makes it right and ok ? What makes thee pavement fair game over say....bobs garden over the road ? Arguable parking in his garden would be less dangerous and less inconvienant for a higher number of people.
@trail_rat. This isn’t about right or wrong but a practical, workable alternative. Car ownership has been allowed to grow without any government intervention out any thought about such issues.
Just banning parking on pavements isn’t the solution, it needs to be joined up with either other options for parking or a fully functioning viable public transport alternative to car ownership.
As things stand, and I’m sorry if it makes me selfish, but I’m simply not prepared to spend 4 hours on 6 different buses to travel a total of 10 miles each day to work and back. Nor am I prepared to risk my life cycling.
I’d love to bike it but it’s simply not safe to do so on the roads I’d have to take.
As per my earlier post-I assume you haven’t ever lived on such roads where parking is a real issue?
So Danny in your world the convenience of car drivers trumps the safety of children. Old folk, this disabled and the blind
The solution on those roads is parking on one side only
You said there's enough room for one person to walk. How about a wheelchair user? A blind person with a dog? Stay in their homes or risk the road?
It's not right that folk have to park on the pavements - the photos above tell you why it happens. Just now, there is a car parked opposite our house that's been there over 24 hours, and it's completely blocked the pavement, then on my side, a visitor to the neighbour over the road, has parked very badly outside our house, again completely blocking the pavement. Fortunately, we are in a very quiet cul-de-sac.
I'm sure our knob neighbour won't be out trying to break their wing mirrors - he doesn't like me after trying to talk to him about burning building timber on his wood burner after stinking my house out all day (we are 100 yards away), in a clean air zone. Said wood burner had no building regs (he's shoved it in himself).
We are planning on extending our drive as we have space, others don't.
You shoudnt assume. I have had the experiance that's why I no longer live in the city - at the expense of having to live in a smaller ex council house than otherwise where I could have bought a new built in an estate much cheaper , had more bedrooms and covet my single parkjng space.
I would walk quite some way after I found a safe parking space when I lived in town
Which was a pain in the arse so had the added bonus of meaning we used the car considerably less.
@tjagain - no that’s not what I’m saying. Read my last post; it’s about practical solutions not just banning cars in favour of pedestrians or vice versa.
And again I have to ask - I’m assuming you’ve never had such issues with parking? I’m not saying my convenience counts over others however by the same token if you’ve not ever lived anywhere that has such issues and haven’t tried to manage a young family and work jobs where a car is pretty much a requisite then you’re very lucky.
I’d be more than happy to ditch my car if there was a workable alternative. As I say I’m lucky now that I live in a house with off-street parking so I could easily kick back and support the ban as it wouldn’t affect me.
But I just don’t see it as something that can be implemented properly *as things stand*.
Problem is that this is the logical start of the solution.
If you start by putting on the public transport.....it costs heaps of money and no one uses it because it's still Convienant to use the car.
You shoudnt assume. I have had the experiance that’s why I no longer live in the city – at the expense of having to live in a smaller house than otherwise.
Of course not everyone has the luxury of being able to move. And did you move just so you didn’t have to park on the pavement anymore? Fair play if you did.
As I say I can park off-street now so maybe I’ll support such a ban and stuff all of those people a) can’t move and b) are reliant on their cars.
I completely agree this law in Scotland will cause hassle. It will put some folk to inconvenience.
But.
We don't solve parking and traffic issues by building more road space or saying "let's continue as we are, with roads clogged and pavements blocked".
It's called induced demand I think. More roads, more parking = more cars.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/amp
Long term we might now see an appetite for more public transport.
More people making the decision to live elsewhere, nearer school, work and public transport.
More car clubs and shared ownership.
More use of bikes, ebikes, scooters and feet.
Perhaps we will see neighbourhoods that are not low-carbon and sustainable as, erm, unsustainable. Not just Victorian terraces either. The house values will fall. Folk will move out. We will build new more modern buildings and streets.
Local shops will return.
But we have to start somewhere and start coercing and forcing folk for change.
And I disagree. Suddenly making it so that tens of thousands of cars suddenly can’t park anywhere isn’t the start of a solution to anything.
You need to heavily subsidise the public transport, get that up and running first even if it runs at horrific losses, then ban parking so people can still get to work and back etc.
An interesting stat for you. London spend’s £68 per head of population of public money on public transport and it shows. Public transport is a far preferable option in the capital. I wouldn’t own a car if I lived and worked in the city.
In Sheffield they spend £4.68 per head of public money and it shows. The bus services are shrinking, even in a major city, the timetables are often irregular even on major routes and there are very few cross city services meaning to get from one point in the city to another means changing buses several times and using different operators. Some of whom don’t accept passes and tickets from other operators making it really quite expensive.
People need an alternative to the car before they’ll give theirs up.
The solution is obvious. Getting there? not possible unless there's some huge changes.
My commute is 11 miles. I start work at 7am 6 weeks out of 8. It takes me 25 minutes to drive, so I leave the house at 6:30am.
If I used public transport, I'd have to leave the house ta 5:30am to get there at 7am, and catch 2 trains and a bus. Coming home, finishing at 3:30pm ish, I wouldn't get home until nearly 5:30pm. And this is between 2 rather large towns, barely 10 miles apart, in a well polulated area of Kent. It's quicker to get to central London.
As above, unless you live in a city with excellent public transport, or work locally - ditching the car isn't a feaable option. And that's for me, a single man with no kids, no other half.
Danny
That is exactly what you are saying by saying pavement parking is essential
Those pictures show pavements that the blind., wheelchair users and the elderly who need support cannot use
So you are putting car drivers convenience over the safety of vulnerable people
No I moved because it was a horrible environment with grown adults shouting at each other if you dared to park out side their house.
An unsafe environment for children to walk anywhere
An unsafe environment for me to walk anywhere
Cars getting smashed into by cars trying to get into spaces that were too small or just people who couldn't drive.
Coupled with leaving the house at 6.30-9 am and 3.30pm-7 meant joining nose to tail traffic for 45 minutes just to get to the round about
All those who are stating you need your car to work. No one on this thread is saying you can't have a car. Just that you cannot Park it on the pavement
People need an alternative to the car before they’ll give theirs up.
I agree.
But we can also create the market that will drive (!) these things into existence.
Btw, I'm an ex Sheffield resident, Hawthorn Road is just like you pics. I used to park 150m away on Rivelin Road where there was space.
What you guys don't seem to get is.... the pavement isn't there for you to park on. The fact that there is space for you to do it doesn't mean that it is therefore available. It's like saying I went to the match last Saturday. Parking was awful, fortunately there was a big grassy space right in the middle of the stadium so I stuck the car there.
Perhaps we will see neighbourhoods that are not low-carbon and sustainable as, erm, unsustainable. Not just Victorian terraces either. The house values will fall. Folk will move out. We will build new more modern buildings and streets.
Where are these magical new houses going to be built? There's already a major shortage of housing in the UK. And the houses that are unsustainable, which are now worth pennies, well no-one with a job or family will want to buy a house like that, so those areas (which make up huge areas in most towns in the UK) would just turn into essentially slums, full of social housing, unemployed, etc.
And of course the people living in these houses (which are now worth nothing) will need to buy a new house with parking. But they can't becuase their current house is worth pennies...
All those who are stating you need your car to work. No one on this thread is saying you can’t have a car. Just that you cannot Park it on the pavement
So what is the solution then ?
Narrower cars.
I bought my house because it had off road space for 2 cars and a garage, that was 25 years ago when we got married. Move on a bit, and we have two kids, one who is driving and now has a car which he needs for work. I'm lucky we have grass to the side of our drive that I will be flagging for my lads car. Most of our neighbours don't have this space (we're in a modernish semi, so not a great deal of land).
So what is the solution then ?
You park it where it is legal to park it, or you don't own a car.
People need an alternative to the car before they’ll give theirs up.
The other issue with this is the bus can't get through the narrow streets, clogged with cars being driven and parked.... 🤪
My commute is 11 miles.
Ride.
Not that how you get to work has anything to do with blocking the pavement so that other drivers have to share the road with kids, prams, wheelchairs, etc.
ditching the car isn’t a feaable option. And that’s for me, a single man with no kids, no other half
So who sits on the other 3/4 seats of your car if your a single man with no kids ?
Where are these magical new houses going to be built?
For every Uber narrow street there are more where the houses have front gardens that can be converted to car storage.
We can do parking one side, pavement the other.
And other creative solutions.
The super-narrow streets you are speaking of are not that many relatively. We will end up bulldozing some streets. See some of the work my architect brother is doing in NZ, partly helped by the earthquake....
If we can change car culture, narrow streets are not an issue. See Holland.
There is a revolution coming. And it's not going to be easy.