[Closed] same sex marridge cake

So, question for the folks who think "just go elsewhere, there's other cake shops" is the answer. At what point are there enough cake shops that it's OK for some to turn away the pink pound? Is it OK as long as 90% will serve you? 50%? 1%?

If there's only 1 cake shop in town, does that mean they don't have the right to choose who they serve, because people [i]can't[/i] just go elsewhere?? What if there's 2 cake shops and they're both run by homophobes? Do they have to take turns?

Might sound like hypotheticals but as soon as you get into "fine as long as" you get into this too. And where we are now isn't some perfect post-equal-rights world, the same sliding scales apply- if you say "there's no need for such an aggressive approach any more", where is that cutoff?

They refused to supply a specific cake with a specific message on it - they did not refuse to do business with a particular person or type of persons - just supply a particular bespoke product.

From looking at the case it seems the folk ordering the cake have gone out of their way to deliberately provoke this row in order to get a business whose views they don't agree with to be taken to court. Loads of other places they could have had their cake made.

The right to be treated equally or the right to discriminate against people

it is not a dilemma for me tbh

This ^

Very difficult.

Petty minded bigots who selectively pick from the many nasty bits of the OT to decide who they hate...

But arguments about cake may seem petty until one decides where people can draw the line about what is acceptable "choice" for a business or person.

Could I, as a GP, refuse to treat certain sexual problems, people with certain sexualities or religions?

At the very least, I'd like all businesses with this kind of ethic to display a Fish sign so I can choose to take my money elsewhere... But we know that after centuries of judging and discriminating against people on grounds of religious belief, some Christians aren't so happy to see the same happen to them. Even in the squeals of "militancy" and unfairness we see here when some have their views challenged...

Pragmatically, I think that if you open a business, you don't get to discriminate in this way, unless you are asked to do something illegal or which is a lie.

Kenny I just spoke to a christian friend and they said the christians should be more christian and said its only a bloody cake and that the christians were an embarrassment to christians and not a good example of gods love or christinaity.

We are both very lucky to have a "friend" who can speak agree with us arent we 🙄

Even if your comments are true all it shows is that homosexuals, like heterosexuals, dont all agree on this issue.

Its not news and they no more speak for all homosexuals than you or I speak for all heterosexuals.

Bloody Hell DD those views are shocking...worse than child abuse 😯

display a Fish sign so I can choose to take my money elsewhere... But we know that after centuries of judging and discriminating against people on grounds of religious belief, some Christians aren't so happy to see the same happen to them

[img] [/img]

Millenium Falcon cake available for Jedi Warrior Marrideggdes

christians. They don't like it uppem.

[img] [/img]

Could I, as a GP, refuse to treat certain sexual problems, people with certain sexualities or religions?

To be fair, doctors can refuse to offer or provide certain services to patients on the basis that it conflicts with their own personal belief or conscience...

But theres a clear element of [s]homophobia[/s] heterophobia in that argument – The whole “[s]gays[/s] straights can’t help being that way” approach is reminiscent of the old view of [s]homosexuality[/s] heterosexuality as a form of psychiatric illness. The implication that [s]gay[/s] straight people would be [s]straight[/s] gay, if only they could!

I just spoke to a Gay Christian friend and he said 'It's only a bloody cake, kill them all!!!!!'.

Ninfan- moving the goal posts they cannot do what they said
they can deny doing certain treatments to EVERYONE - big difference and my bold

From the BMA
http://bma.org.uk/practical-support-at-work/ethics/expressions-of-doctors-beliefs

*doctors should have a right to conscientiously object to participation in abortion, fertility treatment and the withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment, where there is another doctor willing to take over the patient's care;
*doctors should be able to request that arrangements are made to accommodate their conscientious objection to participating in other medical procedures, provided that patients are not disadvantaged. All requests should be considered on their merits;
[b]*doctors should not claim a conscientious objection to treating particular patients or groups of patients;[/b]
*doctors should not share their private moral views with patients unless explicitly invited to do so;
*doctors should ensure that any manifestation of their religious or cultural beliefs (such as clothing or other religious icons) do not impact negatively upon the therapeutic relationship

They do have to safeguard the patient so they cannot refuse to treat someone who is gay or a Muslim or whatever as you appeared to suggest.

PS Just noticed the time Kenny P posted - quote lucky your "gay friend" was up at midnight for a quick chat about the cake issue.

There's a video somewhere of a street voxpop asking people who think that being gay is a "lifestyle choice" (incredibly, mostly christians): "So, how old were you when you decided to be straight?"

Hilarious watching the respondents almost chewing off their own tongues, trying to think of an answer.

Laugh? I nearly crossed the aisle...

It is American though, and they are not representative of general intelligence levels.

Well, I just spoke spoke to my friend who's a gay Catholic baker who's a member of the Orange Order, and he says "nye surrender". Unfortunately, he wouldn't elaborate further so I'm not sure to whom he refuses to surrender.

Too stereotypes ?

From looking at the case it seems the folk ordering the cake have gone out of their way to deliberately provoke this row in order to get a business whose views they don't agree with to be taken to court. Loads of other places they could have had their cake made.

Actually it seems the bakers have gone out of their way to 'make a stand'. They could just have said they were too busy.

konabunny - Member

Well, I just spoke spoke to my friend who's a gay Catholic baker

This reminded me of the David Cameron "Last week, I met" generator website, and no joke, I just ran it a couple of times and it came up with:

"Last week, I met a Muslim baker, who told me that homosexual activists killed Diana."

Random word generator gains sentience, impersonates singletrack

Junkyard, firstly, using terms like “giant sky fairy” is just childish trolling so why not give it a rest.

Secondly, the cake shop owners weren’t refusing to serve the chap because he is gay. For all we know he may be in there every other day buying cakes left, right and centre. The shop owner said they weren’t comfortable making a cake with a particular slogan on it. They didn’t castigate the chap for being gay, they didn’t try and stop him from going to another cake shop, they didn’t stop him buying a cake and then putting his own slogan on it.

They simply turned down a piece of business they didn’t feel comfortable with taking on. They are the ones being discriminated against by being forced to carry out actions they aren’t comfortable with.

It’s sad to see an organisation who claim to stand up for people being victimised and discriminated against then indulging in exactly the same victimisation and discrimination. Pity they can't just live and let live.

Actually it seems the bakers have gone out of their way to 'make a stand'. They could just have said they were too busy.

Or made a cake which tasted disgusting. I could give them advice there.

using terms like “giant sky fairy” is just childish trolling so why not give it a rest.

Secondly - what a massive collection of straw mans that have been addressed already. They discriminated against him due to their views on same sex marriage.

The directors and myself looked at it and considered it and thought that this order was at odds with our beliefs.

"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."

They are the ones being discriminated against by being forced to carry out actions they aren’t comfortable with

Pity they can't just live and let live.

yes N irleand is indeed a fantastic shining beacon of how christians manage to live side by side and just get on ...its everyone else isn't it?

Unfortunately [ for the religious]religious belief does not mean you get exemption from the law of the land in terms of non discrimination. Basically you need to treat everyone the same if you run a business.

So it turns out that Cameron isn't a frequent visitor to this site as he told the Commons he wasn't aware of the case.

Pity they can't just live and let live.

The bakers? I agree.

Basically you need to treat everyone the same if you run a business.

But the interesting twist there Junkyard, is that is seems pretty likely they [i]would[/i] have refused to make that cake if the customer was heterosexual too - so they are treating everyone the same.

And on that point I think the case will fail.

[quote=fr0sty125 said]So it turns out that Cameron isn't a frequent visitor to this site as he told the Commons he wasn't aware of the case.
we would all say that at work though wouldn't we 😉

Basically you need to treat everyone the same if you run a business.

As has been stated time and time again, as far as I can see (and lots of others), they are treating everyone the same as they most likely would of refused to make that cake for anyone of any religious or sexual orientation.

It's surely no different than an ethical web design company refusing to make pro fox hunting website or a design company with strong female rights policy refusing to do work they think might promote misogyny.

But the interesting twist there Junkyard, is that is seems pretty likely they would have refused to make that cake if the customer was heterosexual too - so they are treating everyone the same.

And on that point I think the case will fail.

Maybe - but there is a balance of judgement about that and it is a hypothetical, where as the actuality is they refused to produce a cake with a pro-equal marriage message for a gay person.

And importantly the law does also extend to a policy that when applied equally would disproportionately effect a protected category. So if you think that refusing to produce pro-gay marriage cakes is more likely to affect gay people then it is likely to be discrimination. [but I'm not a lawyer...]

Looks like the courts will get to decide.

Junkyard, firstly, using terms like “giant sky fairy” is just childish trolling so why not give it a rest

Burn the witch.

[img] [/img]

It's surely no different than an ethical web design company refusing to make pro fox hunting website or a design company with strong female rights policy refusing to do work they think might promote misogyny.

Not really. In fact it's the complete opposite of your second example.

It's more like a design company full of sexists refusing to do work that promotes equality, then publicly stating that they are 'taking a stand' against equality.

and then claiming,because some want to curtail their freedom to do this, that it is really them being discriminated against.

they are treating everyone the same as they most likely would of refused to make that cake for anyone of any religious or sexual orientation.

It's surely no different than an ethical web design company refusing to make pro fox hunting website or a design company with strong female rights policy refusing to do work they think might promote misogyny.

As above, your examples don't work. The equality act is protect those who may suffer discrimination and covers 9 categories. It is where society has determined it is unacceptable to discriminate. I am surprised that it seems to be news to a lot of people on here - anyone who is any sort of manager, runs a business or for that matter deals with other people at work in any way should be aware of this. When I worked in the NHS it was part of our mandatory training (along with child protection, data protection, infection control etc)

For ref the categories are:

age
being or becoming a transsexual person
being married or in a civil partnership
being pregnant or having a child
disability
race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
religion, belief or lack of religion/belief
sex
sexual orientation

Okay so flipping it around, how would you feel about a gay baker refusing to make a cake with a "pro-hetero" marriage message on it for a Christian "Hetero Rights" group? 😀

I am fine with positive discrimination....you 😉

If the bakers are found to be at fault in this case then surely the same would apply to my case though. They'd be illegally discriminating based on religion and beliefs.

It's all very tricky. I think they are all good questions to ask, but I've no idea what the right answers are.

olddog - Member

...Maybe - but there is a balance of judgement about that and it is a hypothetical, where as the actuality is they refused to produce a cake with a pro-equal marriage message [u][b]for a gay person[/b][/u]....

Not sure that's ever actually stated in the article, which describes the customer as a "gay rights activist".
As far as I am aware, the sexuality of the customer is never mentioned, and it would be pure conjecture to assume they were actually a "gay" "rights activist". You don't have to be gay to actively support gay rights.
And to be fair, same sex marriage is a popular policy, most polls showing more than half the population supporting it. Even if this is only 51%, without knowing for certain one way or the other, that leaves the statistical likelihood of the customer being straight more than four times the chance of them being gay.

{0.51 x 0.9 > 1.00 x 0.1 ; Kinsey report estimating 10% population gay}

Okay so flipping it around, how would you feel about a gay baker refusing to make a cake with a "pro-hetero" marriage message on it for a Christian "Hetero Rights" group?

It would be discrimination assuming pro-hetero rights group isn't code for anti-gay

(and assuming the courts determine it is discrimination in the real case)

Not sure that's ever actually stated in the article, which describes the customer as a "gay rights activist".
As far as I am aware, the sexuality of the customer is never mentioned, and it would be pure conjecture to assume they were actually a "gay" "rights activist". You don't have to be gay to actively support gay rights

True, but I was answering a specific point and it was my second point that was more relevant:

And importantly the law does also extend to a policy that when applied equally would disproportionately effect a protected category. So if you think that refusing to produce pro-gay marriage cakes is more likely to affect gay people then it is likely to be discrimination. [but I'm not a lawyer...]

So the point I was making is that the sexual orientation of the activist [b]doesn't matter[/b]

any cake left

I [b]only[/b] make cakes for gay people.

Sue me 😉

Goes to another cake shop,

EASY.

I only make cakes for gay people.

Fairy cakes? 😉

PS Just noticed the time Kenny P posted - quote lucky your "gay friend" was up at midnight for a quick chat about the cake issue.

Not that lucky Junkyard. He'd just finished a late shift. Doesn't tend to turn in till one or two in the morning. Was also the reason I couldn't talk to him earlier.

FWIW i am not overly impressed with their/your message that I will burn in hell for ever being judged as a sinner by your god but I will get over it.

Go on then Junkyard, show me where I, or anyone else, has ever told you that? Surely not you trolling again? 🙄

😀

Go on then Junkyard, show me where I, or anyone else, has ever told you that?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_savn.htm
http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Hell
https://www.facebook.com/atheistswillgotohell

Its pretty clear that the christian message is follow me let jesus into you heart and be saved. Dont and be damned
I dont think this is even remotely close to a controversial view never mind be a troll. Perhaps you could explain what part I have got wrong?
you may not like the bluntness of my language but the point is correct hence you need to cry troll rather than refute it with an argument of any description [ Hence why THM likes it though he may claim copyright on this tactic]

Not that lucky Junkyard. He'd just finished a late shift. Doesn't tend to turn in till one or two in the morning. Was also the reason I couldn't talk to him earlier.