[Closed] Sam Allardyce

he won't be treating it as a million pound a year paid holiday, like Hodgson did.

£3m pa I think it was

BTW anyone want to start a wendy ball thread - Pogba £100m and £11m pa 😯 Quite a bit more than the entire Leicester Squad no ? I thought Rooney was more effective at Euro 2016

Quite ironic, the one thing England, even for all the riches of the EPL, can't produce is a successful manager - Howard Wilkinson being the last.

Of course you have to coach a team, you have 22 players most of whom don't play together regularly. Its the coaches job to get them playing in the style he wants with the required tactics. All this takes work.

I guess it depends on your definition of "coaching": In my view, that's not coaching, that's organisation and man management.

They shouldn't need it at the national level as well.

Without wanting to be rude that's bollocks.

Quite ironic, the one thing England, even for all the riches of the EPL, can't produce is a successful manager - Howard Wilkinson being the last.

Not really ironic. More an inevitable result of market forces. No time to train, blood and give young managers a chance when there are such huge sums at risk. Having the richest league in the world is the biggest thing holding back English football.

Or maybe it is ironic....let me go check with Alanis Morissette.

I guess it depends on your definition of "coaching": In my view, that's not coaching, that's organisation and man management

I remember reading an article on Pirlo, and his views on coaching, and it was quite different to some of the nonsense expressed above.

What would he know though....

Or maybe it is ironic....let me go check with Alanis Morissette.

Without wanting to be rude that's bollocks.

The rudest thing about that is not stating why you think it's "bollocks".

I remember reading an article on Pirlo, and his views on coaching, and it was quite different to some of the nonsense expressed above.

Care to enlighten us?

Not really, no. You've already made up your mind, clearly.

Not really, no. You've already made up your mind, clearly.

🙄

saw big sam in his Blackburn days and my neck is still sore from the long balls

he will stop you getting relegated, it will be shite to watch, he likes a big man up front

I don't see him as the answer to the England problems personally

he has also almost never worked with top top class players

he likes a big man up front

That in its self isn't an issue, a big man up front with skillful attacking midfielders running off them is quite a successful tactic. In fact long balls aren't necessarily an issue either, it only becomes and issue when you forget the midfield exists, play 9 across the back and hit everything long.

For those asking what he has won, did that same rule apply to the Portugal manager who just lead his team to the European title?

I think it's a really good appointment considering the options. A well drilled, organised side can do very well in the Euros / World Cup and that is the least I expect to get from an Allardyce England side.

I don't understand people suggesting Hoddle again? All this talk about him being a 'good coach' but what has he done of note since he last managed the side?
And Shearer? Seriously?

I don't understand people suggesting Hoddle again? All this talk about him being a 'good coach' but what has he done of note since he last managed the side?
And Shearer? Seriously?

Spot on. Hoddle is yesterdays man and Shearer shows a bit of patriotism, which does not make him a manager.

I think it's a good choice... He was hindered at Newcastle and at West ham by the fans hounding him out, saying it's not the clubs way. West ham have gone onto better things, Newcastle not so much...

People asking for shearer? Please, he failed miserably at Newcastle and as for passionate players becoming managers, how's Stuart Pearce currently getting on?

Doesn't really matter who the manager is.
The reality is that most of the current first 11 wouldn't have even made it into the 22 man squad 10yrs ago - they are mediocre at best.
However whilst some fans have grasped it, there is still an unrealistic expectation out there that England should be going to tournaments and doing well with the current crop of players.

FA should hire the cheapest manager they can find and invest the remainder of the cash in youth development programs. When the squad actually has some potential to do well, then look at getting a top class manager in.

That in its self isn't an issue, a big man up front with skillful attacking midfielders running off them is quite a successful tactic.

Its a tactic that keeps you in the league it does not win you world cups

If it beats Iceland that would represent progress

he has also almost never worked with top top class players

Maybe England need to take a bit more of the "Leicester route" our Euro 2016 squad didn't look very top class. Man for man Iceland where better.

I think it's a really good appointment considering the options. A well drilled, organised side can do very well in the Euros / World Cup and that is the least I expect to get from an Allardyce England side.

Be nice to think that he won't stand for any of the usual shithousery that lets serial under-performers accumulate 100 caps. I kind of doubt it though - the England media circus always seems to subvert the best of intentions.

fifeandy - Member

Doesn't really matter who the manager is.
The reality is that most of the current first 11 wouldn't have even made it into the 22 man squad 10yrs ago - they are mediocre at best.
However whilst some fans have grasped it, there is still an unrealistic expectation out there that England should be going to tournaments and doing well with the current crop of players.

FA should hire the cheapest manager they can find and invest the remainder of the cash in youth development programs. When the squad actually has some potential to do well, then look at getting a top class manager in.

fifeandy has pretty much summed it up there

Paying Hodgeson and now Big Sam (managers who've never actually won owt) over £3 million a year is madness.

But then again the FA is not fit for purpose. Its totally dysfunctional. How on earth do you have an organisation absolutely awash with cash, so giving you virtually limitless resources, yet not only manage to be utterly shite, but continue to get worse and worse and worse with each tournament.

They need to sack every single last one of the lazy, complacent old guard at the FA and start again from scratch

If showing a bit of patriotism is the criteria - Ian Wright is a shoe-in.

Paying Hodgeson and now Big Sam (managers who've never actually won owt) over £3 million a year is madness.

My understanding, from listening to 5Live briefly this morning, is that the England manager pay is going to be heavily shifted towards being performance related.

As for the FA....

[img] [/img]

Football family my arse.

1, Hoddle, has not coached or managed for yonks.
2, an utter bellend imo.
1, Sam, managed to get results in a pragmatic manner.
2, Impossible to be worse than the last two fraudsters.

FA should hire the cheapest manager they can find and invest the remainder of the cash in

youth development programs

. When the squad actually has some potential to do well, then look at getting a top class manager in.

The trouble is that these are pointless when premier league teams are free to choose the best players from around the world. Young, English players just don't get a look-in these days.

Quite ironic, the one thing England, even for all the riches of the EPL, can't produce is a successful manager -

But Big Sam has been successful, he's been successful at all the clubs he's managed, including West Ham and Sunderland, his most recent teams. Okay he's not won anything, but he's never had the players. Chances are he won't win anything with England either, looking at the players available....but he at least deserves the chance.

Hoddle had his chance and Shearer had one go at it, failed and gave up!

Okay he's not won anything, [u]but he's never had the players[/u][b]

Pretty sure before last season the same could've been said regarding Ranieri.....

I couldn't get my head around people even suggesting Glen Hoddle. Seriously... WTF?!!!! 😯

He was hardly impressive back then, and not having managed for over ten years is hardly likely to have improved matters

The trouble is that these are pointless when premier league teams are free to choose the best players from around the world. Young, English players just don't get a look-in these days.

Correct, they don't get a look-in cos they aren't as good. If a sufficiently talented player comes up through the ranks, impresses in B squad games or lower leagues you can be fairly sure the talent scouts will find him.
Extra cash into talent identification and development is how the situation is rectified, not paying a lot of money for a manager.

The trouble is that these are pointless when premier league teams are free to choose the best players from around the world. Young, English players just don't get a look-in these days.

In other nations, the top teams have feeder teams in lower divisions, allowing them to develop not just young players, but also coaches and managers. Blaming the success of the premier league is a red herring IMO, there are fundamental changes that could be made while still continuing the PL's financial success.

When Guardiola took over Barcelona's first team, he had been managing the academy squad, in a competitive league while preparing them with the tactics and skills to step up to the first team.

The FA made that proposal a few years back, but it was the lower league teams which blocked it, that should be pushed through IMO.

you can be fairly sure the talent scouts will find him.

They'll find him, alright; then he'll move to a big club, rot in the reserves for a while (with the occasional cup game appearance), get bored, and eventually sign for a lower league team, whilst the big club buys in a ready-made, world class player to replace him.

It would be nice to have a national academy system that actually worked, but you've got to get around the win-at-all-cost attitude of the top clubs first.

[i]Okay he's not won anything, but he's never had the players[/i]

Pretty sure before last season the same could've been said regarding Ranieri.....

Ah, but Ranieri couldn't win anything when he did have the players!

Work that out? 🙂

Finished second a lot though. Mrs Binners is a bolton fan and absolutely loves Big Sam. They punched well above their weight when he was manager. I used to enjoy the look on Arsense Wengers face on his annual trip to the Reebok to watch his expensive foreign artistes get hoofed off the park by the two Kevs. I believe Arsene is a big fan! 😆

Gutted he's left Sunderland. He'll do well, he's pretty good at polishing turds.

I used to enjoy the look on Arsense Wengers face on his annual trip to the Reebok to watch his expensive foreign artistes get hoofed off the park by the two Kevs.

I miss those days 🙁

I miss those days

I still have nightmares! 😥

 

Me too zokes, me too.

The FA made that proposal a few years back, but it was the lower league teams which blocked it, that should be pushed through IMO.

The tester will be the cup that has u21. (teams) invited. I believe Newcastle will be involved.

On the subject of telling the players what to do, we were working at an ex-players house, the day after Rooney had been sent off, a few years ago.
Amongst the many questions - why do they do such stupid things, when they know they'll be sent off?
The reply was that a large minority of players are totally thick. They have done nothing but football since the age of 10/11. Clubs are not meant to pay any youngsters, yet envelopes of cash are passed, with the promise of a contract with the club when they are old enough to sign up. Of course, mum and dad then go on to make sure their son carries on his football, as he'll be a millionaire by the time he's 20.
Schoolwork is forgotten about.
Then, they get signed, they are absolutely loaded, and carry on being a child, as they know they can afford to pay for any damage/mess/trouble they cause.
Then a big game comes along, and the manager says 'you stay on the left, once you get a chance, you pass it straight into the box'.
Then they get a mist come over them when they have the ball, and all previous instructions are forgottoen, and they think they can score, so, lose the ball.
But hey, what's going to happen? They cant sack him as he's worth £10m+. and the Manager will be saying the Lad had a bad day.

I think Sam is perfect for where England are at the moment, not where we think we are.

Hopefully he'll surround himself with good, young up and coming coaches and they work together to great a more successful national team. I'm sure they cant be less successful than what they have been in recent history.

Let's not forget it could have been worse. Alan Irvine isn't in a job at the moment

Feeder teams in the lower leagues are a terrible idea.

They work in countries dominated by a few major teams & where the lower leagues have none of the history or support base that the English teams have but why would you want to destroy what makes it unique just to try something that will probably make no difference to the quality of the national team?

It's another rubbish, lazy idea from the FA because they don't want to annoy the Premier League with proposals that might actually work.

On coaching - that takes many aspects. There is pure technical coaching like how to kick and trap a ball which even the most ardent anti-football fan can see isn't what's needed - they all have those skills and deficiencies are coached at club level (yes, I know it goes awry sometimes but that's mental pressure causing technique to breakdown and the same in any sport - golfers shank the ball, bowlers can't hit the cut strip, etc.)

There's coaching of the mental side - giving players the capability to perform under pressure. No matter what people say the intensity at National level is higher - most players play very few 'win or go home' games at club level, maybe at the sharp end of the season but in most of the year a poor result can often be fixed with a game a week later; no-one's interested in cup knock out games any more, and aside from the latter stages of the CL there aren't the same pressures. Sam will be good at this (or rather he'll have the right people to help with this)

Then there's team coaching - choosing tactics and fitting players into the tactic and executing it. That definitely needs coaching, defenders may need to read and react differently to how their club side operates; forwards may need to make different runs to the ones they make at club level. That needs a strategist, and a man manager to get players to buy into it and then understand how to do it.

I get most pissed off by people who don't know the game who think you can just pick the 'best' 11, and send them out and assume they'll work it out themselves. 'How come a team from the PL can't beat Iceland?'. If that was the case then Iceland can't happen. Leicester can't happen. You may as well hand the cups out based on squad value and FIFA rankings; and that's what makes it great and a decent coach worth the money, because a side that executes a system best usually comes out on top, not the one with the best players.

And it works; otherwise how can Ranieri or Iceland or Wales achieve like they do.

Then there's team coaching - choosing tactics and fitting players into the tactic and executing it. That definitely needs coaching, defenders may need to read and react differently to how their club side operates; forwards may need to make different runs to the ones they make at club level. That needs a strategist, and a man manager to get players to buy into it and then understand how to do it.

That's the thing: If players are played in the positions at which they are best, they will know how to act, which runs to make, where to be at any given situation. The problems arise when you start playing players out of position, which is one of the problems England face.

IMO England managers have picked the players first, based on reputation, and then chosen the formation; this leads to the manager forcing square blocks into round holes and the players don't know how to react. This is especially the case when playing in high pressure games, when players just either revert to type, meaning the system breaks down, or they just freeze, and nothing happens.

Junkyard - lazarus

he will stop you getting relegated

To where would England be relegated? Mars?

(if you do badly enough in the euros and world cup maybe you should be relegated to the scottish premiership)

they wont but the point was that he does not really set teams out to win his forte is making shit teams survive rather than transforming shit teams into winners/world beaters.

a side that executes a system best usually comes out on top, not the one with the best players.

IMHO the team with the best players almost always win
Why are spain poorer now? is it because their system is shit or their players are worse than they used to be?
What about Brazil - shit players or shit system?

Clearly a great coach will make a shit team better but so will better players
I guess you want both

The issue with sam is he is largely untested with great players as he has rarely managed them and his tactics are largely based on survival in a league rather than winning anything

Can he adapt to actually trying to win? I dont know tbh

Its not really the case. When was the last time we had a Leicester ? Even then they got the player if the year and most nominations so they still had the best players.

It's a mixture of the two, though. The Spanish team were great because they had the players AND played a system that made the best use of their skills. Likewise with Brazil, Germany etc.

A team of well organised, lower level players often come out on top against a disorganised team, made up of better quality players i.e. Iceland v England.

The moral of the story is to chose a style of play that gets the best out of your existing skillset, not try and teach new tricks to players in the heat of tournament football. Hence why I say that the England manager roll is more of a man management/tactician one, than of a football coach

yes it takes both as shown when iceland faced a well organised team with good players