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Bikepawl -
I am not going to argue with you.
I did not lie, I do not lie,
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TandemJeremy - Member
Bikepawl -I am not going to argue with you.
Posted 38 seconds ago # Report-Post
Why is that?
Can you not see that your first post in that thread was a lie, it may have been for humourous purposes, but it is still a lie.
As far as the Celtic Tiger thing goes I don't think an independent Scotland would have gone the same way as Ireland or Iceland. The other country mentioned in that arc of prosperity was Norway.
At the height of the slump I think Norway's unemployment went from something like 1.9% to 2.3% and bounced back within a year. Scotland's economy would be far closer to Norway's than Ireland's or Iceland's IMO.
Bruce he constantly expressed his desire for the tax regime of Ireland and the 'light touch regulation' of Iceland. Its all down in his speeches.
If Scotland had been independant in 2008, with the policies in place that Alex Salmond had publicly espoused, then Greece would look like Switzerland in comparison!
And about Norway. Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. Its Iceland that Scotland would have resembled. Both economies left with HUGE liabilities for their top-heavy banking sectors
Pawl - I did not say what you are claiming I did.
Now please stop accusing me of lying. Its really offensive
As far as the Celtic Tiger thing goes I don't think an independent Scotland would have gone the same way as Ireland or Iceland.
you're aware of the background behind the 1707 Treaty of Union aren't you? 😆
you're aware of the background behind the 1707 Treaty of Union aren't you?
If scotland breaks the union do we get the bailout back with interest?
TandemJeremy - Member
Pawl - I did not say what you are claiming I did.Now please stop accusing me of lying. Its really offensive
Posted 1 minute ago # Report-Post
So you remember the thread?
Was your opening post about how you could ride the obstacle mentioned by the OP?
What is offensive about these questions?
He can dish it out.....wheres my apology TJ?
If Scotland had been independant in 2008, with the policies in place that Alex Salmond had publicly espoused, then Greece would look like Switzerland in comparison!And about Norway. Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. Its Iceland that Scotland would have resembled. Both economies left with HUGE liabilities for their top-heavy banking sectors
Very true, Salmond did say a lot of questionable things in the lead up to the financial collapse. But then so were a lot of people. Can you tell me if any of the leaders of the main parties were screaming for greater regulation in the lead up to 2008?
An independent Scotland would be far closer to Norway than Iceland. Similar population, similar natural resources, and a similar political culture. I think in Scotland a much greater percentage of the population are in favour of keeping a nationalised health service, making higher education free, and having a far higher minimum wage than we currently have.
Bikepawl/mcboo
We get it, you disagree with TJ. So do lots of people for lots of different reasons. Why not get a life and move on?
I have never done what is now called the edinburgh defense
Utter rubbish. I remember you doing it on loads of occasions, and my memory's fine. I can't be bothered to look it up, you'll be wrong anyway. And after all, I'm only using your logic.
MF - and to me my recollection is perfectly clear and accurate. *shrugs*
Tell me, was the above the first sighting of the West Lothian Shrug?
Oh hark at her. No thanks very much.
TeeeeeJaaaaaay.
Bruce - if presently Alex Salmond stood for election in Great Britain as a whole - He's probably get in.
He didn't pick up disillusioned labour voters for no good reason. He got them because the SNP represents a lot of the values that labour was meant to stand for pre-Blair. I'd vote for him. If you're north of the border, its a no brainer!! But what I'm saying is that he's sharp enough to realise that a lot of people who voted for him do not support full independance. And never will!! Hence the Devo Max stance
Sure, there's a lot who don't. However, I can only see the number who do increasing while we're under a Call me Dave government. So it makes sense to delay the referendum for a couple of years to hopefully consolidate support.
I really think that the Devo Max thing is just hedging your bets which is not a stupid idea since no one can tell which way the referendum will go yet.
binners - Member
Bruce - if presently Alex Salmond stood for election in Great Britain as a whole - He's probably get in.He didn't pick up disillusioned labour voters for no good reason. He got them because the SNP represents a lot of the values that labour was meant to stand for pre-Blair. I'd vote for him. If you're north of the border, its a no brainer!! But what I'm saying is that he's sharp enough to realise that a lot of people who voted for him do not support full independance. And never will!! Hence the Devo Max stance
FWIW, I don't think you should doubt Alex Salmonds commitment to Scottish Independence. If he thought UDI was a goer, he'd have played that card already. However, there are two obstacles he needs to overcome;
a) Within the SNP, both the "Gradualists" and the "Fundies" need to be accommodated.
b) Despite movement in the "right" direction a Yes/No vote solely on Independence would likely fail - at the moment.
AS knows that Devo Max (let's just call it Federalism) would only be a stepping-stone and is prepared to play the long game. Call him shrewd, call him clever, call him sneaky, but never doubt his commitment.
Its certainly intersting. Its academic in a certain respect. FWIW I don't think for a second any Westminster government (of either colour) would wear the Devo Max proposal. Not a chance. He's living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks otherwise
It'll be full union, or get your coat and close the door on the way out
Federalism is LibDem policy, but I can't see they're ever going to be in a position where that makes a difference. For me, it has a lot of advantages and it seems to work in other countries. However, I think negotiating it would take even longer than full independence and that period of uncertainty would cause damage to the UK economy as a whole. It's worth reflecting that the Czechs and Slovaks actually voted for Federalism in their referendum but it was simply undeliverable. Maybe that is one of Alex Salmonds preferred outcomes?binners - Member
FWIW I don't think for a second any Westminster government (of either colour) would wear the Devo Max proposal.
Oh - and please don't get me going on the BBC/Guardian etc.....
If Scotland did go for the Devo Max option, would that mean we'd have to stop saying "I think you'll find that that is legal tender" every time we go to England?
Started reading this thread but haven't got time to go through it all. I will raise two points though in relation to this.
TJ, take off your rose tinted glasses. Scottish nationalism begins and ends with resentment against England and some perception of arrogance from the English. I got fed that garbage from birth, it is no different from any other Balkan style prejudice.....always definine yourself against "the other".Oh and another thing you wont like to admit. Scots are racist. Sorry to burst your little bubble.
1)Pro independence for scotland doesn't have to mean anti englishness, it can be about pro scotland and independence.
2)Independence would also be from Wales and Northern Ireland not just England, a fact many people fail to register.
As you were....
Cupra,
2 points well made. I am all in favour of independence. Does that make me anti-English? Ask my English wife. She might have a view. Sure there are some morons who equate Scottish nationalism with anti-Englishness, but not all of them are Scottish. See this thread.
1)Pro independence for scotland doesn't have to mean anti englishness, it can be pro scotland and independence
It could be, but in my extensive experience it isn't.
2)Independence would also be from Wales and Northern Ireland not just England, a fact many people fail to register.
Exactly, aren't you proving my point?
We are such a bunch of whining chippies. I know, I used to be one.
How recently McBoo?
In the 70s I would have agreed with you - anti englishness ran large in Scotland. Now its different IME
Where do your experiences come from. Almost all my experiences of people talking about Scottish independence haven't even mentioned the English, mostly it's how it will or won't be good for Scotland.
You haven't been talking to Scottish Americans have you? 😉
I worked for a Scottish company 10 years ago. There was a notable anti-English sentiment there... May not be the norm but it was pretty pervasive there - deliberately treating the Scottish staff better than the staff elsewhere...
McBoo - It might not be, but in my extensive experience it is. 🙂
Proving your point, maybe, but I was always sold independence as pro- scotland. Those who do get hung up on anti english sentiment tend to miss the other 2 UK members but some might argue that this is because their 'influence' on scotland is less, or perceived as less.
Lunch calls.
When I worked on the rigs you'd sometimes hear stories about English people getting a hard time but it was all 'a friend of a friend' type stories.
TBH I think I got more of a hard time from the tcheuchters for being from Glasgow.
In the 70s I would have agreed with you - anti englishness ran large in Scotland. Now its different IME
well there's never any shortage of it on here. there's one or two regular contributors. maybe they're just stuck in the 70s.
always goes unchecked too. but bigotry against the english or americans or germans is the last acceptable face of racism i guess.
5thElefant - Member
If scotland breaks the union do we get the bailout back with interest?
Do you a deal- "you" can have the bailout back if we can have all historic tax revenues from the scottish banks back 😉
Antienglishness on here? Any examples?
There is no doubt it still exists in Scotland and that for some it may be a large part of their nationalism.
However I have seen the debate move on to a much more positive one that is about Scotland not England
Fairy-muff.....maybe everyone at home has chilled out and grown up a bit. I love Scotland.
Anyway
TJ
WHERE'S MY APOLOGY!
Antienglishness on here? Any examples?
😆
go look at the wrc thread
none so blind..............
I am not anti English - have you heard my accent?. 🙂
so lets see an example of anti englishness predjudice from me then.
I'm struggling to recall any anti-English comments on here. It's one of the things that makes my blood boil - and one of the reasons I'd prefer independence. Jim Sillars once used the phrase "90 minute nationalists" referring to those who would whinge and complain about English "rule" but were unwilling to vote to change the situation.trailmonkey - Member
> In the 70s I would have agreed with you - anti englishness ran
> large in Scotland. Now its different IME
well there's never any shortage of it on here. there's one or two regular contributors. maybe they're just stuck in the 70s.
TandemJeremy - Member
I am not anti English - have you heard my accent?.
Ah but you're a Silicone Scot - none so rabid as the converted... 😉
Hmmm. Maybe sport is a special case 🙂trailmonkey - Member
> Antienglishness on here? Any examples?go look at the wrc thread
None that I saw on the Rugby world cup thread. Any examples?
so lets see an example of anti englishness predjudice from me then.
like i said go back and look at the rwc thread. littered with stereotypical [i]arrogant english[/i] style comments. plenty from you.
be happy to replace [i]'arrogant english '[/i] with [i]'thieving travellers'[/i] would you ?
thought not.
Lets see one then trailmonkey.
I am not anti english, I did not see any anti englishness on that thread although there was lots of accusations of such from one or two people.
TandemJeremy - Member
I did not see any anti englishness on that thread although there was lots of accusations of such from one or two people.
Plenty of national stereotyping on the WRC thread TJ, and very little of it complementary to the English nation.
examples? From Scots?
well here's one of yours from the wrc thread
Maxraqy - its the arrogance that leads them to believe they can behave like this
tbh i was spoilt for choice. stereotypical crap all over the place.
like i said above would you replace 'arrogant english ' with 'thieving travellers' ? nope. same stereotyping different target.
that thread was quite an unpleasant place to be for english people
So how is that anti English prejudice than?
IIRC the context it was about the bad behaviour of the England players and IMO its because they are arrogant that they behaved as they did.
What we need to see is negative sterotyping on grounds that they are English. Thats not an example of such as its about a specific small group of people in a specific situation. Its not taking an asssumption and generalising from it.
Edit
Its the difference between saying "all travellers are thieves" and saying - "these thieves are all travellers".
The first is negative sterotyping, the second is factual
I think we can separate sport from real life. I 'hate' the English (and the Welsh for that matter) when it comes to internationals but then I also 'hate' Edinburgh when the 1872 cup comes around.
The thing I love about sport is that it gives you an opportunity to embrace you tribal instincts without it impacting on the real world.
So yes, I'm sure there was a lot of anti-English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French, etc sentiment on that thread but I also don't think it had anything to do with how you actually view an entire nation.