[Closed] Running/Jogging

Decathalon for uber cheap, however I would advise you spend a reasoniable amount (£50+) otherwide you will get some that don't fit/are uncomfortable and then you will hate running even more!

Even if you're only using them once a week i'd still get some proper running shoes and get them fitted properly at a running shop. Not worth the risk of injury imho.

Bear in mind as well that once you have been a few times you might actually find you like it and start doing it more often (running that is) and trust me it's worth buying a decent set of shoes to avoid injury. I'm only talking £80 here even when going to a gait analysis place.

If your planning to run off-road forget all that gait analysis stuff though. Every foot fall will be at a different angle to that of a treadmill.
Out of interest has anyone come across any non manufacturer sponsored research that demonstrates motion control/stability shoes reduce runner injury?

Before you buy running shoes read this

[url= http://www.****/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-painful-truth-trainers-Are-expensive-running-shoes-waste-money.html ]Painful Truth[/url]

[url= http://www.denverpost.com/extremes/ci_12887617 ]Barefoot Running[/url]

I run in Vibram Five Fingers, no problems, and never heel strike.

As for non manufacturer sponsored research that demonstrates motion control/stability shoes reduce runner injury?

Not likely too imo, industry is worth billions, and they are selling a product, much like the industry/magazines tell us we all 5" travel on our bikes front and rear, do we?? The running shoe evolved from a theory that if you put wedge of foam under the heel, the stride could be lengthened so we would run faster. Let's just forget the evolution of man, and the fact that no animal runs on their heel.

“The human foot is a work of art and a masterpiece of engineering.”
—Leonardo Da Vinci

[url= http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/05/07/vibram-five-fingers-shoes/ ]Human Foot & VFFs[/url]

Its just going to be pretty slow running and I'm really not going to be doing it more than once a week I just don't have the time plus we need to get a babysitter (my mother) when we want to go out so its a bit too much to ask.

Do Decathalon do mail order I don't think there is one near me.

Honestly - all this guff about gait analysis and correctly fitted shoes.

Just make sure you start slow and don't rush things. Your first runs should be no more than 1 mile and build up nice and slowly - and don't forget to warm-up and cool-down. You run so many more risks causing injury by over-training than by having shoes that didn't cost £100+.

I bought a pair of running shoes (Reebok I think) cheap off the internet and trained in them for 9 months (4 times a week, up to 12 miles) in order to do the Great North Run. Only injury was a loose patella causing discomfort.

I have since had a pair 'correctly' fitted by Up and Running (original store in Harrogate) as I over-pronate. I find them less comfortable, I get more numbness in my toes and they make my knee injury more painful than the old ones which I still have.

You are clearly not going to be running huge distances so just make sure you get a decent pair that fit well and run sensibly.

If you get addicted, you MAY want to get a pair professionally fitted, but then again, in my case it was £120 wasted.

Out of interest has anyone come across any non manufacturer sponsored research that demonstrates motion control/stability shoes reduce runner injury?

Gordon Pirie did his own research however he had some very strange ideas.
There is other (I cant find sources) "research" that indicates that modern shoes actually increase the risk of injury, Pirie concluded this also.
One thing to remember is that a lot of unsubstantiated rubbish is repeated about damage to knees, joints etc through running.
I saw Dave Bedford last year in Liverpool organising a 10k and although he was overweight he was pretty sprightly, he was with Tim Hutchins who also looked non the worse for wear after years of 100 mpw! Bedford was renowned for runnning in excess of 200 mpw and as well as winning all before him held the WR for 10000m
The majority of our older distance runners ran much higher mileage than our current crop, consistently out performed them and did so in plimsoles!

You are clearly not going to be running huge distances so just make sure you get a decent pair that fit well and run sensibly.

If you get addicted, you MAY want to get a pair professionally fitted, but then again, in my case it was £120 wasted.

Once you are running regularly you will be better qualified to know what make and model are right for you rather than having a shop assistant who has been on a manufacturers sponsored training course telling you you need to spend £120.
My advice would be as MF says, start slowly, find comfortable neutral cushioned shoes and run off road as much as you can.
Oh and enjoy it, its meant to be fun!!!

Out of interest has anyone come across any non manufacturer sponsored research that demonstrates motion control/stability shoes reduce runner injury?

Hardly research but I suffered badly with Iliotibial Band Syndrome (ITBS) when I first started running
The only thing that cured/controlled it was motion control shoes, if I run for more than 15 mins in normal shoes, I'm in excrutiating pain

I trained with a friend some years ago who pronated terribly. He rolled very far inwards on one leg particularly. He told me it caused him no problem unless he tried to correct it with anti pronation shoes!!!

He had clearly adapted. He was fast as well.

I trained with a friend some years ago who pronated terribly. He rolled very far inwards on one leg particularly. He told me it caused him no problem unless he tried to correct it with anti pronation shoes!!!

I would have said to get professionally fitted shoes until...yesterday. I was running on neutral shoes that are now getting on for three years old and probably have 1000+ miles on them. I'm as prone to believing the hype as anyone else and while I enjoy running, I really want my knees, ankles and hips for other stuff later in life (and I need them for work too). So I thought...time to replace them. Originally, I bought a cheapish pair from I can't remember where and then had some Pumas from a proper running shop. To be fair, my running was a whole lot different afterwards.

Went to a newish shop in Bristol that everybody raves about and had a look at my gait analysis video. To be fair, both of my legs were doing different things. Left strike was textbook but right was all over the place. Tried a few different shoes and settled on a pair of Mizunos that felt really nice...on a ****ing treadmill in a shop.

Took them for a run last night and now I want my neutral ones back. I know you're supposed to "break them in" for a while but at the same time, you just "know" if something feels right or not and there was definitely something that didn't feel right about these. I'll give them another few weeks and see how they go but I feel it's been eighty odd quid wasted - and I may very well end up looking for the latest incarnation of my Pumas and just going back to those.

While I don't necessarily agree with what m_f says i.e. bugger any kind of analysis and just ****ing get out there and do it, I think we underestimate the ability of our bodies to adapt to whatever style of running we start out with...i.e. what surfer is saying.

I've got the Cardiff half in a month's time - here's hoping...

EDIT: what m_f says in his last post...yep, I think I might be with him on that...

The manufacturers will state some truly scary numbers regarding forces slammed through the foot and knee joints when running, yet seem to think 10-20mm of EVA foam will protect you, wrap a egg in a towel now smack it with a hammer, still breaks! This is the problem with running shoes. The foot needs to feel the terrain it is landing on so it can correct itself and hence the body will run correctly. I run in the mountains and pull on running shoes, for tough terrain, but for trail running 'barefooting' is the best method for technique development and strength in the foot and legs. If you start heel striking when barefoot you'll not walk home never mind run

....the only problem with the Vibrams, KSOs in my case, is they are about a million quid.

Otherwise i would get some as after reading [url= http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307266303 ]Born To Run [/url]i really want to try them out.

Anyways, currently doing 40miles a week on some Brooks GTS7s which have about 800miles on them with no ill effects so will just keep on as i am i guess 😉

Deadly - I was being anecdotal and did say [i]If you get addicted, you MAY want to get a pair professionally fitted, but then again, in my case it was £120 wasted.[/i]. I am sure expensive shoes can help some people, I just don't think they are the must have some would have us think.

Yeah, I know what you mean m_f...I think the whole expense thing might be psychological too. You know..."well, I spent this much, so damn it, I'm going to run better...".

Just like bikes really 😉

I always buy last year's [or older] models now that I know what suits
£40-£50 max

deadlydarcy - I always struggle with new shoes too - even the same make & model
After the distance you did in your old slippers, I'm not surprised new ones aren't working for you
I tend to introduce them slowly over a few weeks.

I'm not surprised new ones aren't working for you

That's what I'm hoping uplink...my feet just felt so different. Though I did find I didn't go through the whole mind **** for the first 20 minutes when I question my whole existence! And for the middle 10k of my run, they felt fine.

I suppose taking a new pair of shoes out for around 9 miles was never a good idea...I know, I know...but I'm not the most patient. My new bike felt absolutely fine when I did that... 😆

I got some shoes with mild support early on in my running career - given I do have mild over-pronation (pronation is normal, it's when you do too much it's a problem). I did find they helped a lot. However subsequently I ended up using mostly neutral shoes, since I was largely doing trail/off road running, and those only come in neutral flavour. Got chronic problems with my achilles which the physio treated but didn't really fix, so eventually ended up going to the podiatrist. Got properly assessed there (the gait analysis you get at running shops doesn't look at the fundamentals in quite the same way) and ended up with mild orthotic canted insoles. These are designed to be used with neutral shoes, and despite being far simpler with no hi-tech stuff, do a far better job than generic support shoes. So the correct answer is to use neutral shoes which have been fitted to you with insoles - unless you're so efficient that you don't need them. Despite them working OK for me years ago, I'm actually now relatively unconvinced by the idea of support shoes.

Of course at the moment I've had plantar fascitis since April, so may not actually be the best example (I do think I understand the reasons behind that though, and why it's taking so long to recover - the fact I don't get to just rest with my feet up at home certainly doesn't help!)

Let's just forget the evolution of man, and the fact that no animal runs on their heel.

I've never really gone into the science of it but how normal is running with a heel strike?
when I run, the ball of my foot strikes 1st

There is a lot of fuss when it comes to running techniques, and shoes.

To start with go gentle and dont push yourself too hard - if you are a cyclist you might find you have the engine (heart and lungs) but can easily injure yourself. Soft surfaces (like off road) are more interesting and take some of the sting out of the impact while your body adapts.

Get some well fitting running shoes, dont buy over the net - you need to try plenty of pairs on and make sure they feel right. Its not essential but worth getting them from a proper running shop, explain you dont want to spend much money you shouldnt need to spend too much (£40-£65). I'd go with something fairly neutral to start with until you know what your running style is.

Run how feels natural and right for you - dont get too tied up with all the science just yet - start slow and enjoy it.

Run how feels natural and right for you - dont get too tied up with all the science just yet - start slow and enjoy it.

+1

Take a look at your weight and build and do two things:

1) Do a Google on reviews and prices for running shoes for your "type"
2) Go to a local running shop (I mean a proper running shop, not JJB, etc) and ask for a fitting (pronation et al) - you'll be surprised at how patient and helpful they can be.

If you're 5ft and 9 stone you don't want a pair of Brooks Beast, likewise if you're 6ft and 16 stone you don't want a pair of featherlight Nikes, blah blah.

SM

Do beware of prices though. You might well feel obliged to buy whatever the running shop "recommends/feels right" and pay top dollar. Whereas if you were to look online for last year's model, you'll probably save 50%.

Not a big deal if you're after £30-£50 trainers, but if they're nearer £100 then worth bearing in mind (IMO).

6'4" around 16 stone, I run in shoes with no support, effectively barefoot. You need to establish your running on your own.

Go to a local running shop (I mean a proper running shop, not JJB, etc) and ask for a fitting (pronation et al) - you'll be surprised at how patient and helpful they can be.

Starting running just as we head into winter. Might not be the nicest experience if you force your selves to go out on a regular basis regardless of weather. Keep the running to nice weather and enjoy it.

Can recommend a Wii fit for indoor exercise which isn't too tedious.

Check out http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stw-fatclub-not-a-member-but-still-lost-weight

for example of what can be done reasonably easily between April and August

What the bloody hell do you all mean when you say the type of runner I am? Does slow fat and lazy count as a type? I know what kind of mtbr I am but don't have a clue about support and style etc.

Ive got a pair of thin flat soled pumas somewhere would they be any good? They have no cushening at all just the insole and a couple of mm of rubber on the bottom.

Ive got a pair of thin flat soled pumas somewhere would they be any good? They have no cushening at all just the insole and a couple of mm of rubber on the bottom.

They'll be fine, unless they cripple you, then they'll be crap 🙂

Ive got a pair of thin flat soled pumas somewhere would they be any good? They have no cushening at all just the insole and a couple of mm of rubber on the bottom.

[i]Ive got a pair of thin flat soled pumas somewhere would they be any good? They have no cushening at all just the insole and a couple of mm of rubber on the bottom.[/i]

I guess it's a bit like asking I'm taking up mountain biking, i've got a rigid singlespeed, is it suitable? Opinions on suitability may vary 🙂

Those three answers are what I was after really. I don't really think they are suitable but did wonder. This is a pic of the style I mean.

[img] [/img]

We want to start now to train for a short race next summer and for something to do together. We are not going to be taking it too seriously its for fun really so I dont want to be worrying about all the geeky gait and pronation stuff.

What type of grips for cold weather on the other hand...

[i]Does slow fat and lazy count as a type[/i]

At last! I know what kind of MTBer I am!

I always knew that describing myself as a hucking, phat, all-mountain race whippet semed wrong.

FWIW I've been running in my 5:10 freeriders for the last few months, 3 or 4 times a week and don't find them too bad. Am planning on getting some shoes from the local running shop, or at least getting my gait looked at.

Andy are you planning to run on grass/dirt/mud or pavement/tarmac? If it's the former then you can't go far wrong with something like this -
[url] http://www.inov-8.com/Products-Detail.asp?PG=PG1&L=26&P=5050973101 [/url]
If it's the latter - haven't a clue 🙂

It will probably be pavement as it will be dark and I don't fancy tripping over tree stumps when trying to show off to my wife.

Keep the running to nice weather and enjoy it.

Its just that attitude that has taken us from a world force in distance running to a bunch of poofs! (a large dose of :wink:)

surfer - The africans seem pretty good at distance running and I think it is purely down to the fact they have more sunny days so they enjoy it more!

In fact I might even write a sports psychology thesis to prove this!

😉

I always get my trainers from here http://www.sportsshoes.com/

I've been getting the same pair of Saucony's from them every year or so for about 10 years. Last year they were discontinued so I bought a newer replacement, which look more wizzy but are not actually as good!

I never pay more than £35 for trainers. IMO its better to replace them regularly than spend a fortune and feel that you can justify doing that. Also its like ski boots, try as many pairs as you can until you find a brand that fits you.

Oh and are not all fell shoes and track shoes pretty flat and very little padding? I think alot of it is marketing trollocks.

Oh that forefoot strike thing is whacky guys!
I can see it happening in a sprint but seems AAF for a run.
I've just had a go and you do have to be running very very fast, Then I tried walking by putting the ball of my foot down first, tis very odd

The bit I can't work out how you cope with is this. Looking at your leading leg you have to point the foot downwards as it strikes which seems to bend the knee. I can't get my head round this. Got a vid?

Here's something about the differences between forefoot & heel striking

I midfoot strike

Oh that forefoot strike thing is whacky guys!
I can see it happening in a sprint but seems AAF for a run.
I've just had a go and you do have to be running very very fast, Then I tried walking by putting the ball of my foot down first, tis very odd

The bit I can't work out how you cope with is this. Looking at your leading leg you have to point the foot downwards as it strikes which seems to bend the knee. I can't get my head round this. Got a vid?

Oldgit, tis true. I find it unnatural to run on my heel whatever speed. Although I do move forward more the faster I go. The bulk of my training means I land around mid to forefoot. The majority actually land on the outer edge then roll inwards to varying degrees.

Video showing the difference between barefoot and shoe running

The moment you take your shoes off and run, the body instantly corrects, heel striking whilst barefoot you won't do! it is too painful.

The africans seem pretty good at distance running and I think it is purely down to the fact they have more sunny days so they enjoy it more!

There could be something in that. Spain has had a resurgence in distance running the last few years and I can testify to the fact that they get more sunny days than us!
Is their a sunny day/mileage training coefficient?

Just watched the Newton video. I was reading too much into it thinking you were almost running tiptoe.
I actually run pretty well near on midfoot with a tendanct to hit with the outside of my foot first. Looking at the guys running in sand that's pretty well how I run.
All 100% of my running is off road though, and I probably use all of the foot depending on wether I'm going up or downhill.
I'll look at that tonight.

I remember the trend for barefoot running in the early eighties, bloomin Zola Budd.
I'm pretty lucky that I've never suffered from any running problems apart from carrying weight. And so by accident I might be a 'natural' runner. When I did a lot of 1/2s and a few marathons I just did them in sub twenty quid JJB things.

Bit of research looking at how effective different priced shoes are:

Do you get value for money when you buy an expensive pair of running shoes?

Author(s): Clinghan R., Arnold G.P., Drew T.S., Cochrane L.A., Abboud R.J.

Citation: British Journal of Sports Medicine, March 2008, vol./is. 42/3(189-193), 0306-3674

Publication Date: March 2008

Abstract: Objective: This investigation aims to determine if more expensive running shoes provide better cushioning of plantar pressure and are more comfortable than low-cost alternatives from the same brand. Methods: Three pairs of running shoes were purchased from three different manufacturers at three different price ranges: low ([pounds]40-45), medium ([pounds]60-65) and high ([pounds]70-75). Plantar pressure was recorded with the Pedar in-shoe pressure measurement system. Comfort was assessed with a 100 mm visual analogue scale. A follow-on study was conducted to ascertain if shoe cushioning and comfort were comparable to walking while running on a treadmill. Forty-three and 9 male subjects participated in the main and follow-on studies, respectively. The main outcome measure was the evaluation of plantar pressure and comfort. Results: Plantar pressure measurements were recorded from under the heel, across the forefoot and under the great toe. Differences in plantar pressure were recorded between models and between brands in relation to cost. Shoe performance was comparable between walking and running trials on a treadmill. No significant difference was observed between shoes and test occasions in terms of comfort.

Conclusions: Low- and medium-cost running shoes in each of the three brands tested provided the same (if not better) cushioning of plantar pressure as high-cost running shoes. Cushioning was comparable when walking and running on a treadmill. Comfort is a subjective sensation based on individual preferences and was not related to either the distribution of plantar pressure or cost.

6'4" around 16 stone, I run in shoes with no support, effectively barefoot. You need to establish your running on your own.

In which case you're either 1) fortunate, or 2) carrying an injury or steadily going about contributing to one that you're perhaps not yet aware of.

IMO I don't agree entirely with establishing your running on your own - this can easily lead to any combination of bad training habits, injuries and people being put off the "running is good for you" vibe. Not such as an issue if you generally look after yourself and/or only run 10-20 mins here and there, but not so good if you start running distances and/or competing.

Just my tuppence - if it works for X people then cool.

Thing is barefoot running won't make Nike, etc. millions of pounds of profit, and a pair of Vibram Five Fingers will last for years. I mean what are all those children going to make, if we don't buy a new pair of runners every 500 miles?

All 100% of my running is off road though, and I probably use all of the foot depending on wether I'm going up or downhill.

Me too. I sometimes throw in a bit of Elbow, Knee, Backside for good measure!

In which case you're either 1) fortunate, or 2) carrying an injury or steadily going about contributing to one that you're perhaps not yet aware of.

Present me with evidence that padded shoes will prevent injury?

The running shoe industry has been made in the last 40 years, before that man ran without support shoes, for millions of years. Our bodies are built for running

-Running on two legs is slower in a sprint, but more efficient over long distances
-Humans have toes that are far shorter than all other primates. This has been shown to be a big advantage – but only when running over distance
-Hairless bodies and our all over sweating allows running in the heat. Antelope aren’t nearly as efficient at getting rid of heat – they must stop to pant

From birth our feet are bound in shoes, they suffer muscle atrophy, break your leg and wear a cast for a few months and you will suffer muscle atrophy.

By running without support your feet and legs work in the way nature intended, several million years of evolution versus about 40 years of "product" development.

Let's just forget the evolution of man, and the fact that no animal runs on their heel.

That's all well and good but it's a bit simplistic to say there's no room for improvement on what evolution has provided. Sure we evolved to run around chasing/dodging stuff on the plains, but these days most of us aren't running on the plains and expect to be active well into our fifties and beyond, instead of wrecked by our thirties and dead by forty.

That's not a defence of running shoes necessarily, just a reminder that "as we evolved" does not automatically equal "can't be bettered".

By running without support your feet and legs work in the way nature intended, several million years of evolution versus about 40 years of "product" development.

I ran in a XC race some years ago in the Northeast. I forgot my spikes and only had bulky heavy trainers. The ground was firm underfoot so I ran in barefeet (Oldgit, Bruce Tulloh was also famous for running barefoot) I finished 4th (not a high key event) however when we went clubbing that night my feet were sore!! No doubt due to the fact that they werent used to the abrasion and the skin was soft etc.
Suffered no other ill effects.

just a reminder that "as we evolved" does not automatically equal "can't be bettered".

1/2" of padding under our heels, large numbers of runners suffering injuries that have only really existed for 40 years, a multi billion pound industry selling shoes, orthotics, etc. etc.

Does this equal 'being bettered'??

Versus letting our legs and feet become stronger and work in a natural method, fewer injuries due to careful and unconcious foot placement, and no multi billion pound industry??

Is this years full suspension bike really better than last years?? Why does one guy ride 27 gears and FS, whilst the other guy powers up the same trail on a single speed rigid bike. It's product and industry. Runners World and Singletrack have no business if we run barefoot and keep riding the same old bike.

I wasn't knocking it, I did it myself for a while, doing about four miles a night every now and then like that. I also did a lot of running in my army issue boots. In fact I ran the SDW in those, going barefoot over the seven sisters.
(not the whole distance, just 80 miles to Birling Gap?)

large numbers of runners suffering injuries that have only really existed for 40 years, a multi billion pound industry selling shoes, orthotics, etc. etc

I agreed to some extent until this. We dont know that these injuries didnt exist 40 years ago. We do know for certain that Gordon Pirie broke distance world records training in Plimsoles and that Zatopek broek even more in Plimsoles after training in boots however what can we conclude?
Would they be better runners with todays technology? Was it the training that made then world-beaters?
I suspect it was the latter and I also suspect that todays crop of athletes, (and I include all runners who train to improve) have a very low threshold for pain both in terms of the "good" pain that comes with hard exertion and the bad pain from injuries.

I went from legs that hurt like hell running in Saucony Triumphs, recommended for their great padding because I needed it being 6'4" to ditching the shoes, my running style adapting and suffer no pain! In addition my back ache that I have suffered for years from injuries has diminished since I started barefooting. All the time being lectured that it was madness, books like 'Born To Run' and plenty of great websites are all saying the same thing, unfortunately the barefooters don't have the marketing budget of Nike.

Anton Krupicka in his film Indulgence talks about running barefoot, and is shown trimming his new La Sportiva's saying the wedge of rubber under the heel prevents a natural running style. But no manufacturer is going to say, we got it wrong! Personal Trainers are the worst, had far too many lectures on how stupid barefooting is, never had an answer to the retort "show me evidence", again all part of the industry 😕

didnothingfatal

I am not disputing your own experience. Are you saying you run regularly barefoot?
Over what terrain/distance/terrain?

I went from legs that hurt like hell running in Saucony Triumphs

Bizarrely - that's what I had when I was struck down with IBTS mentioned above

andy-m, those pumas you put up a pic of - cheers, been looking for a replacement for ages (I was certain they were called something else & couldn't find on google)

they're supposedly race-driving shoes (used to come as flameproof boots too 8) ) & were always being given away at the puma "outlet" shop near me -til it shut

very comfy but I've never run more than 100yds in em

I am not disputing your own experience. Are you saying you run regularly barefoot?
Over what terrain/distance/terrain?

Yeah I run in Five Fingers, pretty much exclusively now on a mix of road and trail (both single track and bridalways) so mud, hardpack, leaves.

Runs are 5 to 10 miles a session, and doing this most days.

I run in shoes when terrain demands it, normally in the mountains, where I use Salomon, Millet and La Sportiva. My running style in shoes is no longer a regular shoe style, shorter step with higher cadence.

I'll be going to VFF KSO's, this winter, and will be probably completely shoeless within the coming year.

It may not be for everyone! I know! But, too many people dismiss it and say "get your gait analysed and buy expensive shoes", I'm positive this is not the answer.

I think part of the problem with all outdoor sports, etc. is the industry people trying to make money off something, the latest shoe, the latest bike, latest GoreTex. Everything is better this year than last year, REALLY? Runners World, Singletrack are all supporting the industry, everyone trying to make a buck!

The running shoe industry has been made in the last 40 years, before that man ran without support shoes, for millions of years. Our bodies are built for running

After reading the first few posts I was tempted to post my own experiences, but isnt that the problem with forums in that the responses are almost always anecdotal. Unless huge numbers of people respond to posts then those anecdotes could be the exception rather than the rule. It may be the case that you run in shoes with no support and have had no injuries, but if you've only been running like this for 20 years then a problem may result which leads to the next 20 years plagued by injury. I'm sure this is what scientific studies are designed to address.
BTW not a criticism of anyone or anyone's views as I'm not strongly convinced about the whole over-pronation school but again that's because I've found it hasn't worked for me.

I started with cheapish shoes from JJB (30/40 quid), they have a good range OF beginners stuff. Middle of the road shoes are great for road running but get something decent if you go off road.

I run off road marathons and choose Salomon XA PRO Ultra GTX, just because i want them to last a little longer than 6 months. In the long term i believe they are worth the 90 quid, which i must add is a lot of money to me.

Montrail Highlander are great for shorter off road/fell, plenty of grip, a decent amount of padding and are available on the web for 40 quid.

Inov8 are worth staying well clear of. IMHO

started running on a cheap pair off Asics which didn't really provide alot of cushioning. A i started piling on the miles went over to Adidas A3's which were quite heavy and didn't get on well with the outsides of my feet, so changed to climacool's which although light and very airy didn't offer support and durability. Changed back to a pair of more expensive Asics which lasted ages until the sponge became solid. Moved over to Nike baumermans which played havoc with my feet causing constant blisters, callouses and pain after anything over 5 miles. Finally bought some Asics Kayano 14's this year for 65 pounds and are turning out to be ace trainers

My only problem with running is i suffer from feet that feel like there overheating to a point where at the end of my run i run cold water on them to cool them down

Anyone know anything to help towards this??

Oh, remember to also stretch alot after every run, especially if you cycle alot

I've been fine with a middling pair of Asics for the last 18 months during which I've gone from struggling to do more than a mile or so to 10k in 50 minutes type of pace. Had a period of shin splints at one point but worked through it.

As to all the gait analysis and different types of trainers - my question is how come there's none of this choice with, say, AstroTurf football boots? I reckon I get through a few km in each game... I can only assume there are other ways to differentiate footy boots for marketing purposes, like 'control surfaces' and other nonsense.

Raddogair - thinner socks maybe?

anyone using 5 fingers for running off road , whats the sole like or do you use your toes?

how come there's none of this choice with, say, AstroTurf football boots? I reckon I get through a few km in each game...

Because when playing football you're not repeatedly bashing the feet and legs in the same way as you do when running, more turning, twisting, stopping and starting. In the same way running off-road (and I mean what you might call 'proper' fell running as opposed to running round a park) each footfall is at a different angle so you're not stressing the joints in the same position.

FWIW I had some TFL probs with my knees and have worn orthotics for 15 yrs with no TFL probs. Anti-pronation shoes are standardised whereas my orthotics are for me.

I'd be interested in those 5 finger things but they're not cheap are they!

Raddogair - thinner socks maybe?

tried that, and proper running socks but still cant seem to reduce the hot feeling

I'd be interested in those 5 finger things but they're not cheap are they!

Seems ironic that the minimalist approach they are advocating comes at such a high price. Funny that isnt it!

"The africans seem pretty good at distance running and I think it is purely down to the fact they have more sunny days so they enjoy it more!"[i]

No I reckon is more due being a 3rd world country and abject poverty and having to walk or run for mile after mile in bear feet whilst us fat westerners get in our cars and drive every where.

This whole conversation about running shoes makes me laugh, its people with too much disposable income, taken in by marketing trollocks. Just buy some shoes, run in them.

[url= http://antonkrupicka.blogspot.com/2007/10/minimalist-footwear.html ]Anton Krupicka[/url]'s thoughts shoes, with two Leadville wins and running a few hundred miles most weeks, he may know a thing about footwear.

I agree the minimalist footwear being so expensive is ironic, but on the flip I wear VFF's most days, for just wandering around, etc. Only negative is the strange looks and questions about what have I got on my feet. My running shoes are specific much like my bike shoes. The sole is also showing zero signs of wear.

just a reminder that "as we evolved" does not automatically equal "can't be bettered".

1/2" of padding under our heels, large numbers of runners suffering injuries that have only really existed for 40 years, a multi billion pound industry selling shoes, orthotics, etc. etc.

Does this equal 'being bettered'??

I didn't say it does- the bit you quoted in full:

That's not a defence of running shoes necessarily, just a reminder that "as we evolved" does not automatically equal "can't be bettered".

My point was just that assuming that what we already have is perfect is a shakey basis for arguing that things (for instance running shoes) are crap. There's a difference between that and arguing that running shoes [i]aren't [/i]crap.

It looks like there's plenty of evidence to suggest that they are indeed a bit crap, but the fact that it's not as nature provided isn't part of it.

Newtons anyone?! well i am liking mine and i swap between these and racing flats for all my running. when i am not offroad that is.

So I should be wearing no shoes at all. Great money saving tip guys thanks.

Coming tomorrow: [b]What pliers for removing glass and gravel from bare feet?[/b]