[Closed] rUK

As the UK isn't in a permanently right wing state now...

Oh come now ohnohesback, you have the choice of 4 different Tory parties, how much more democratic do you want it?

[i]As the UK isn't in a permanently right wing state now...[/i]

It feels like it though. Where's my left wing party that I can vote for?

Just like I have a choice of local radio stations; all playing much the same music.

Except Scotland is a country and the shires arent.

All you are arguing there is "how big does my constituency need to be to be able to have a legitimate whine about things"

That Scotland is a country is irrelevant while governed under the UK.

The People's Republic of Worcestershire on the other hand is has every right to be aggrieved!

"Every nation gets the government it deserves."
Joseph de Maistre 1811

All you are arguing there is "how big does my constituency need to be to be able to have a legitimate whine about things"

[s]That Scotland is a country is irrelevant while governed under the UK.[/s]The west lothian issue is irrelevant whilst governed under the UK

its not a great argument is it ? It is irrelevant as it is what happens

you were earlier arguing that simply being "northern" was enough to be aggrieved at being governed by the Tory party. Which are we going for then if one constituency is to be treated differently to another? Country? Region? Parish? At what point do you like it or lump it? At what point are you large enough to be allowed to kick up a fuss?

This government doesn't give a shit about the Labour-voting areas of the country. I'm not sure why Stoner seems to think this kind of thing isn't a legitimate grievance:

Britain's 10 worst-off areas will suffer the biggest council cuts – as some rich Tory authorities get budget rises, research shows.

Deprived boroughs in Liverpool, London, Manchester and Middlesbrough, will lose ten times more from the government than the ten richest.

The reason lies in funding formulas used by the Tory-led Government which hits Labour-held areas hardest.

These local authorities will have their budgets slashed by an average 16.9% during this Parliament, but Tory-controlled councils will lose just 6.6% and Lib Dem councils, 7.8%.

But Communities Secretary Eric Pickles is hitting worst-off areas harder.

Liverpool will lose 27.1% in funding from 2010-15, Hackney in London, 27%, Manchester City Council, 26%, Middlesbrough, 24% and Birmingham, 23.3%.

But Tory-run Wokingham, one of the richest areas in England, will get a 1.1% rise and Education Secretary Michael Gove’s council of Surrey Heath will receive a 0.9% increase in funding.

Of the 50 worst-hit councils, 43 are Labour. Of the least-hit 50 councils, 42 are Tory.

Breathtaking cynicism.

emsz - Member
As the UK isn't in a permanently right wing state now...
It feels like it though. Where's my left wing party that I can vote for?

Good point emsz, with all this discontent you would think that there would be demand for a LW party and that it would enjoy overwhelming support. What's stopping it?

I didnt say there wasnt legitimate grievance just that if you argue that it's legitimate for a predominantly non-tory Scotland to complain about being governed by a Tory government, then it is equally legitimate to recognise the concerns of the Labour voter in Hackney or the Tory voter in Woolhope under different coloured governments. The fact that one is a Labour voter, a Tory Parish, or a country makes it any more legitimate than the other

What's stopping it?

Where would it get it's funding from? The unions are increasingly marginalised, and people are generally cynical about politics so I doubt membership fees would cover it.

Unless political parties become publicly funded I doubt we will see a truly left-wing party ever again.

I didnt say there wasnt legitimate grievance just that if you argue that it's legitimate for a predominantly non-tory Scotland to complain about being governed by a Tory government, then it is equally legitimate to recognise the concerns of the Labour voter in Hackney or the Tory voter in Woolhope under different coloured governments. The fact that one is a Labour voter, a Tory Parish, or a country makes it any more legitimate than the other

Maybe in theory, but in practice it does make a difference being a country rather than one person.

emsz - Member
It feels like it though. Where's my left wing party that I can vote for?

Green?

@emz I've long held the view that centre wins UK elections, we had 10 years of a center-ist Labour government. Now we have a coalition. If you want true left wing government have a look at the unfolding disaster in France, massively spiralling government debt, a shrinking economy and the rise of the far right in response.

Can we stop using rUK, it's not hard to see it's a Scottish fabrication, "rest" of the UK what a joke. The fact is England is the largest member of the UK, without Scotland the UK still has it's heart.

I just wonder what the Scots will do if they vote for independence and the UK votes to exit the EU ?

The unions are increasingly marginalised

It's also wrong to conflate Union membership with left wing/labour affiliation.

[img] [/img]

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/09/09/labours-limited-appeal-trade-union-members/

So Grum, that seems to be suggesting that there is not sufficient support to make them viable. Surely not? If all the current parties are as bad as everyone is making out, there must be huge support for something new and better.

jambalaya - Member
@emz I've long held the view that centre wins UK elections

...and arguably the results have been better for that very reason.

I voted for them last time 😆

Can we stop using rUK

It's just a shorthand for "the hypothetical remainder of the UK should Scotland leave". Easier to type.

I might start voting Plaid if the Scots leave.

you were earlier arguing that simply being "northern" was enough to be aggrieved at being governed by the Tory party.

I thought you were discussing Scottish independence, the west lothian issue and why a country was different from a constituency

To clarify

The west lothian question is a legitimate one - though those making it never cared when they ruled scotland without a mandate- neither scenario is fair or just and i dont want to defend either though they both may be "tough titties".
The not wanting to be ruled by tories you did not vote for in a COUNTRY is a legitimate issue
Countries are different from constituencies
Either the country of Scotland can be legitimately annoyed at Tory rule [ non resident MPs deciding] AND the country of england can be annoyed by MP's from others regions deciding its policies {west Lothian] - its the same thing basically its either unfair or tough titties in both cases

you seem to only object to one ...just like all the Tory shires 😉

In much the same way they object to the union they dont dominate and love the one they do.

EDIT:

or a country makes it any more legitimate than the other

Then you are probably alone in not seeing a difference between a constituency and a country.

Countries are different from constituencies

Honest serious question - why?

So Grum, that seems to be suggesting that there is not sufficient support to make them viable. Surely not? If all the current parties are as bad as everyone is making out, there must be huge support for something new and better.

Strangely enough the tax-dodging press barons and corporate financiers who donate vast amounts of money to political parties aren't in favour of a truly left-wing party. I can't imagine why.

Why do you have to deliberately and irritatingly miss the point in such a trolly way - all the bloody time?

None of the political parties would survive/run a campaign on membership fees alone - and a party that isn't seen as 'pro business' won't get the big donations. You are perfectly well aware of this - pretending that you're not to try and score points is a bit pathetic.

What would be popular "left wing" policies in the UK?

Do we re-nationalise the transport system?

Get rid of the contractors supporting the MoD and NHS?

Start building council houses again?

Bring back the closed shop?

Or will this just cause the old problems of demarcation, inflexibility, militant unions, over manning, spiraling costs and a flat economy?

Or were those problems myths created by the tories to justify their privatisation of everything?

Are we too far down the line of the open market to turn back the clock?

How is a constituency different from a country ?

LOL like anyone needs that explaining

What next why is chalk not cheese?
which is my arse and which is my elbow?

I value your contributions but not when you do this

i wont engage when you do this

Doing nothing of the sort Grum. There is a pretty obvious fact out there. Demand for more extreme political parties and views is the minority, IMO that is a good thing. Demand for slightly LW parties is also not that strong it seems hence the shift in party positioning, I expect that this will shit back to an extent in the future.

People can't just whinge because their views are not held by the majority. If there was genuine demand and need for a clearly LW party it would be there. Ditto on the RW. But there isn't, so live with it. Otherwise set it up and we can suck it and see.

It's seems pretty obvious to me that this is exactly what the unions should be doing right now.

re West Lothian question - I always assumed that was "Who the f*** are you lookin at?"

If all the current parties are as bad as everyone is making out, there must be huge support for something new and better.

[url= http://wso.williams.edu/~rcarson/lizards.html ]If you don't vote for a lizard, the wrong lizard might get in.[/url]

This government doesn't give a shit about the Labour-voting areas of the country

Better to re-phrase that as governments only really care about swing voters. Core voters of all parties will always get screwed, as unless the party really messes up core voters vote for you regardless.

^^^ fair point it is the floaters they all want

It's seems pretty obvious to me that this is exactly what the unions should be doing right now.

They did this about 100 years ago and called it the labour party

I can see why they may want to do this but the problem ( as UKIP possibly shows for the right) is that sometimes voting for what you really want lets in what you really dont want

Fracturing the vote on the left will do nothing but help the right

"Every nation gets the government it deserves."
Joseph de Maistre 1811

Emsz party policies

1. Nuclear disarmament
2. More social housing built
3. 50% of women as MPs
4. Re-nationalise water electricity and gas
5. Ban House of Lords
6. Vat free tampons

Other stuff that I haven't thought of yet 😆

If there was genuine demand and need for a clearly LW party it would be there.

Your faith in the system is truly touching.

jambalaya - Member

Can we stop using rUK, it's not hard to see it's a Scottish fabrication

Is it? I first saw it in a Westminster briefing paper, long before I noticed it in the public domain...

Leaving that aside, what better idea do you have? You obviously can't just say "UK"- the UK post independence will still be the UK, but when discussing it now you need to be able to clearly make the distinction between current-UK and post-independence-UK. It was originally used with issues where powers are devolved to Scotland or where a different policy applies here, because it's much easier to say than "England, Wales and Northern Ireland"

@Northwind - I take your point (I saw on here it was first coined in Scotland but appreciate STW isn't the Oracle) but I prefer to call it the UK which is what it will be known as ex Scotland. I think the context of the conversation means it will be clear we are talking about ex Scotland.

As for the original question, the devolution of Scotland will give the right an advantage in elections but not a material one. I don't see it leading to a permanent right wing government. I'll say again Blair won by ceasing the centre ground, a move further left by Labour as "anti-Tory" will see them slip further behind.

Is it? I first saw it in a Westminster briefing paper, long before I noticed it in the public domain...

Pretty sure something similar appeared in a mid to late 80s edition of Judge Dredd

prefer to call it the UK which is what it will be known as ex Scotland

It simply can't be - there are only two Kingdoms in the UK (apologies to Fifers) - Scotland and England, you can't have a united Kingdom with only one.

It simply can't be - there are only two Kingdoms in the UK (apologies to Fifers)

Don't worry, none of them can read.

piemonster - Member

Pretty sure something similar appeared in a mid to late 80s edition of Judge Dredd

That's it, from now on I'm calling the rUK Brit Cit.

@mefty, depends how far back you go. There were multiple Kingdoms within what is now England.

And Scotland. And they weren't even the same ethnic group either. So Scotland is fairly arbitrary after all 🙂

But they don't exist any more they are ex Kingdoms, England and Scotland, which are still in existence, are the two Kingdoms that united and means the country can be called a United Kingdom - without one of those constituents the name has to die. Wales became part of the Kingdom of England in 1542.

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the same point has already been made but re :

So if the Scots leave this could change the whole political makeup of the rUK. Wales and the North will become part of a right-wing led country forever

Whilst this claim is often made there is no historical based evidence to back up the likelihood of this possible scenario, on the contrary all evidence points to politics being self-leveling and even if the political equilibrium [i]is disturbed[/i] it is eventually reestablished.

For the right, in the guise of one single political party, to hold onto power in a western style parliamentary system indefinitely would require an unprecedented level of voter satisfaction. And therefore presumably also sustained economic stability. Neither of which is even remotely likely.

So even if a UK comprising only of England and Wales gave the Conservative Party an advantage in Westminster, they would not hold onto power indefinitely.

Just like any other comparable country in the world voters in England and Wales would eventually kick out the governing party.

The perceived 'left verses right' political show is universal throughout Europe and there is no evidence to suggest that England and Wales would somehow be the only exception. The same is also true of Scotland.

The problem is the system not the politicians who are charged with overseeing it, until the problem is tackled people will never be satisfied with their politicians.