So if the Scots leave this could change the whole political makeup of the rUK. Wales and the North will become part of a right-wing led country forever, despite being very much left-wing (I dunno about the political makeup of NI).
Is anyone else worried about this? Are there likely to be concessions?
Do any yes-voting Scots feel a little twinge of regret about this? Especially since the Labour vote from these places has helped Scotland get Labour governments over the years.
Tony Blair would have won without Scotland.
Without Scotland, Labour would still have won in 1997 (with a majority of 139, down from 179), in 2001 (129, down from 167) and in 2005 (43, down from 66).
But labour will lose 41 MPs while conservative will lose 1. So it will be a helping hand for the conservatives, but not an impossible advantage.
I might be being thick but what is the 'r' in rUK?
Nope. Did England not have the chance to go down the same road is devolution. But was more or less rejected was it not? 70 or 80? so the gave up trying it elsewhere.
the corollary, molly, is the West Lothian question disappears - a truly undemocratic phenomenon. Scottish MPs should be shamed that the issue even exists and that they never created a convention of abstention on English bills.
That the "North & Wales" end up being governed by a Tory government is not a new thing, nor is it to be taken as read. Have you not thought that non-Tory politics (or even Tory politics) will develop over time to reflect the new demographic of the electorate? Politics never stands still.
rUK = rest of the UK. Wikipedia says that it's a term that originated in Scotland [url= http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom ]link[/url]
A slight twinge of guilt, yes - but it's England that's changed, not Scotland.
I hope that Scottish independence gives the rUK Labour Party a kick up the arse - they get rid of that wet shite with the whiny voice, grow some backbone, and say that they're not playing the Tory-lite game any more.
Sadly, I don't think that'll happen, and if it does they'll just lose.
Are Labour actually left wing now?
It would enable a new centre right party to rise in Scotland, which would clean up - it being the Tory party that is the problem for most Scots, not conservative values and ideas. So win win for conservatives both sides.
Are Labour actually left wing now?
No, but this vote isn't about NOW, it's about the next few hundred years at least. I hope people remember this.
A slight twinge of guilt, yes - but it's England that's changed, not Scotland.
Yes. But Wales hasn't. I'm writing this from Wales.
I'd love to think that we'd get political reform in rUK but that's just a pipe dream isn't it? Why would the ruling party change anything?
ruling
I think you meant to say "democratically elected party of government" there Molly.
And as you say, why would they change anything. Should they need to if their policies get them elected?
Your chip is showing.
Wales and the North will become part of a right-wing led country forever, despite being very much left-wing (I dunno about the political makeup of NI).
I'm afraid that isn't correct. Scottish MPs have never held the balance of power in Westminster. Whenever there has been a Labour government they had a majority of seats in England.
the corollary, molly, is the West Lothian question disappears - a truly undemocratic phenomenon. Scottish MPs should be shamed that the issue even exists and that they never created a convention of abstention on English bills.
The west lothian quesiton is little more than political onanism. You are right of course that is should have been sorted out but since the balance of power is not and never has been held by Scottish MPs its influence is blown up out of all proportion to the reality of the situation.
Yes. But Wales hasn't. I'm writing this from Wales.
Yeah, sorry. You and the North of England are being overwhelmed by the Tory heartlands. I don't know what you can so about that - you'd be welcome in an independent Scotland of course.
I think you meant to say "democratically elected party of government" there Molly.
The UK hasn't had a democratically elected government in my lifetime, perhaps longer - it's a broken system where the votes of a few undecided voters in a few marginal constituencies decide the whole thing.
Scotland will not vote for independence. Bet the farm.
you'd be welcome in an independent Scotland of course.
So wait - Scots get to be defiantly independently Scottish, but the Welsh have to abandon their nationality? Ok great 🙂
The UK hasn't had a democratically elected government in my lifetime
It has. The system may not always represent the majority of the population, but that doesn't mean it's not democratic - just that it's not representative. But I think most governments are majority govts aren't they? In that the percentage of the total vote matches the outcome? Happy to be proved wrong with stats though as I CBA to google that.
ben - if it's FPTP you're griping about then I concur. But if it's just because you dont like being led by a party in government that won more of the popular vote than any other party and it's the wrong colour for you then it's tough titties. It's still democracy. It's one of many kinds of democracy. It might not be your favourite but it's anything but un-democratic.
2010 Conservative government (in coalition), Conservative party highest popular share of vote
2005 Labour government, Labour party highest share of popular vote
etc etc as you go back.
Are Labour actually left wing now?
I think they're trying Tory-lite right now, only with de-emphasis on the 'lite' bit.....
But I think most governments are majority govts aren't they? In that the percentage of the total vote matches the outcome?
In the UK so called "landslide" election victories are won with around 40% of the popular vote. 1997 was 43% labour, 1979 was 43.9 Conservative with 1983 42.4 (crucially the conservative majority went up in 1983).
http://www.ukpolitical.info/Historical.htm
gonefishin - actually the scottish labour MPs held the balance of power in at least two key votes of recent years: the formation of NHS foundation hospitals and more newsworthy, University fees for English students. There may be only few cases of it having an effect, but it shouldnt happen at all. Especially in the hypocritical case of tuition fees.
Stoner - Member
ben - if it's FPTP you're griping about then I concur. But if it's just because you dont like being led by a party in government that won more of the popular vote than any other party and it's the wrong colour for you then it's tough titties. It's still democracy. It's one of many kinds of democracy. It might not be your favourite but it's anything but un-democratic.
and to which I will add, you don't like it? Do something about it. Get involved in politics.
all I want to know is once this vote business is all over
will we have no more freakin threads about independence on here and can get back to more mature debates about wheelsize and hopevshimano brakes etc
YEAH!! AND THESE!!!
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kimbers - Memberhopevshimano brakes
Clearly Hope for hubs, Shimano for everything else.
Mr Woppit - MemberYEAH!! AND THESE!!!
forking hell not again 😆
I don't like rUK.
We will still be a UK of England,northern Ireland,Wales,Cornwall
All this voting seems a bit soft. Should Scotland have to fight for their FREEEEEEEDDDDOOOOOM?
So long as we move the Scottish border to somewhere around Wolverhampton, they get my full support.
and to which I will add, you don't like it? Do something about it. Get involved in politics
It's not particularly easy is it? The system is set up to make it hard to change I think.
But the West Lothian question is a serious issue. In much the same way as my friends north of the border complain (justifiably) that they were used as the guinea pig for the "poll tax", they're elected representatives were equally responsible for forcing the tripling of tuition fees on English students. They were able to do this safe in the knowledge that this unfair tax on the young (who unfortunately for them don't vote so are an easy target unlike pensioners) would not affect their own constituents.
They should hang their heads in shame...
but they're politicians so they probably celebrated with another bottle of Dom Perignon on expenses!
INDEPENDENCE FOR YORKSHIRE
It would enable a new centre right party to rise in Scotland, which would clean up
I agree with this.
There seems to be an assumption that the Scots will elect a left wing government and create their workers utopia.
My bet is the political landscape will change completely on independence and once free of the UK Tories, the centre right will benefit.
the corollary, molly, is the West Lothian question disappears - a truly undemocratic phenomenon. Scottish MPs should be shamed that the issue even exists and that they never created a convention of abstention on English bills.
In much the same way the Tories were shamed into not doing anything in Scotland because they had no mandate that sort of thing?[ i dont disagree tbh but its party politics at work there]
PS
😉it's tough titties. It's still democracy. It's one of many kinds of democracy. It might not be your favourite but it's anything but un-democratic.
Its either tough titties or we can moan and try to change /adapt it to make it fairer. I lean towards the later
There may be only few cases of it having an effect, but it shouldnt happen at all.
Yet every single non Labour govt [ since is it 1925?] is an example of this happening in Scotland- English MPs ruling them..... i think that easily outweighs your two examples, I dont recall the English MPs who hate the west lothian issue feeling shame about them doing it.
Its like the way Boris moans about union vote turnouts when he was elected with a similar piss poor turnout but he says nothing about that in terms of his mandate. The current Union does indeed have anomalies and it may be worth , if the union stays, trying to remove these for both the west lothian issue and the Toryshire issue
I would imagine there will some moves for greater independence in the North tbh and a risk of North /South split as it is clear that South is more Tory than the North and they outnumber us if there is independence
molgrips - Member
and to which I will add, you don't like it? Do something about it. Get involved in politics
It's not particularly easy is it? The system is set up to make it hard to change I think.
not so much the system more apathy.
Yet every single non [s]Labour[/s] [b]Conservative[/b] govt [ since is it 1925?] is an example of this happening in [s]Scotland[/s] [b]Rural Constituencies[/b] - [b]Towny Labour[/b] MPs ruling them
Until Scotland secede/fully devolve etc, they are part of the UK electorate. Like any other constituency they are bound by the government of their constituency whether they like it or not. Much as any Shire in England (and even some in Wales Molly 😉 ) has to take it on the chin when a Labour government is running the show.
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Bitching about your constituency being governed by the wrong colour can be taken down to individual parishes if you like. It's a straw man argument.
The West Lothian question is an issue of constituency representation having law making influence over other constituencies that did not apply to their own.
EDIT: and Junky, it's not so much a North/South thing as a Towny/Rural thing. As our dear departed King of Tower Hamlets would attest to.
EDIT 2: At least the Tories can take some comfort that any inroads the LibDems have made into the shires over recent years will come undone next year. I wonder just how much yellow we'll see on that map in 2015 😉
INDEPENDENCE FOR YORKSHIRE
Speaking on behalf of Lancashire, I'd wholeheartedly back this proposal too.
no chance Cougar.
The two counties can be tied together by the wrist and given a knife each. Now that's government! 🙂
not so much the system more apathy.
Not entirely. Because it's so hard to get involved, people can't find the time to devote to it. I'm certainly pretty busy currently.
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Stoner - MemberThe West Lothian question is an issue of constituency representation having law making influence over other constituencies that did not apply to their own.
Nope, it's an issue of making local law and policy in the national government. Which has an obvious solution which doesn't involve blaming the Scots for a problem other regions have.
I don't like "whatabout" but it's hard to feel Scotland has undue influence against a background of a Tory government elected only in England.
(yes yes, it's a coalition allegedly, but a difference that makes no difference is no difference)
Bitching about your constituency being governed by the wrong colour can be taken down to individual parishes if you like. It's a straw man argument.
Straw man is harsh tbh. Yes they are not identical but they are not that different as neither has a mandate and both are "foreigners" legislating to their country
The West Lothian question is an issue of constituency representation having law making influence over other constituencies that did not apply to their own.
Yes they are different and that may be more unfair but neither is fair nor can either be considered to be great example of representative govt
EDIT: and Junky, it's not so much a North/South thing as a Towny/Rural thing. As our dear departed King of Tower Hamlets would attest to.
AH in that case **** em 😉
Fair point that one tbh
Yes they are not identical but they are not that different as neither has a mandate and both are "foreigners" legislating to their country
They aren't foreigners, they are British.....
Which has an obvious [b]and expensive[/b] solution
i.e. English parliament
or a cheap one: Voluntary moratorium on English bill votes by Scottish MPs. It's hardly onerous. And as above, the fact that there's currently a Tory-ish UK government is as relevant as there being a Labour government to the Shires.
They aren't foreigners, they are British
Thanks Sherlock no one would have known that without your input.
Voluntary moratorium on English bill votes by Scottish MPs. It's hardly onerous.
Its not unreasonable tbh
And as above, the fact that there's currently a Tory-ish UK government is as relevant as there being a Labour government to the Shires.
Except Scotland is a country and the shires arent....what was that about straw mans 😉
Stoner - Memberor a cheap one: Voluntary moratorium on English bill votes by Scottish MPs.
Which will last until some unscrupulous party (ie, all of them) wants to win a crux vote. Gentleman's rules don't even work for gentlemen never mind scoundrels.
The national scene is absolutely relevant; it's inevitable that the largest region has the political clout, it's just churlish for them to complain about the rare occasions they don't get it completely their way.
As our dear departed King of Tower Hamlets would attest to.
He's not that far away, you know. Visiting hours are unrestricted...
INDEPENDENCE FROM YORKSHIRE
