In response to TJ above it would be interesting subject to injury, to note how many internationals turned out for their Province this weekend compared to their England counterparts across the board.
Jones officially retired. To be honest I saw the size of him dishing out the water and thought he WAS gone already. He was a player and a half.
I bet you the english papers and pundits are whinging endlessly about how unfair it is that Sarries had to play their internationals while Leinster rested theirs. Completely bogus – sarries are not in a relegation dogfight and all teams rotate players as no player can play every game.
Thats because the 'celtic' sides have centralised contracts with their respective unions, IRFU etc so player welfare is more of a priority for the union than at club level with the 'prem' sides with non union contracts. 'Prem' players have to answer to their clubs who are paying there fairly sizable wage packets so are less likley to get rested after say a six nations campaign than a celtic based player would. Look at the George North issue recently with Northampton, Alan 'dean' Gaffney wanted him to play against Sale, but he wanted to rest to give best conditioning for the Italy game the weekend after, being on a tidy slice at Northampton that didn't go down too well. Probably one of the main reasons for wanting to move back to the WRU on a dual centralised contract with the union.
Scamper - I would be fairly sure that the english clubs played more of their internationals.
Some points tho one is that the most successful pro 14 teams like leinster do not have a first 15 plus subs - they have a complete squad with at least 2 players in every position that can seamlessly rotate in and out - I call this the leinster lesson and no team can compete at the top end in europe without this. teams like Sarries spend their money on a first 15 crammed with stars, Leinster on a wider squad. also with a smaller number of teams - 4 Irish compared to 14( ap) then the internationals are more concentrated per team in the pro 14
No player can play every game no matter the team - - 11 internationals a season, 8 games in the euro cup if you have a half decent run does not leave many league games you can play - 25 or so games a season is enough
Saracens have injuries to cover as well which leinster have not to the same extent
Both Leinster and Saracens are at the top end of their respective tables so the excuse of sarries having to avoid relegation is bogus - thats the excuse being used this season - a couple of years ago it was "euro qualification was too easy" for the pro 14 teams
Leinster lost their game ( putting them closer to an away playoff game), sarries won theirs
The pro 14 teams being union controlled to a greater or lessor extent means the national team is prioritised.
this issue is a product of the RFU giving too much control to the PRL. Its not that the pro 14 teams have any unfair advantage its that the RFU have hamstrung their international team by giving too much power to the PRL
I will bet however that this is trotted out as a reason for the PRL to want to try to disadvantage the pro 14 teams in the euro cup further. I am so fed up of the cries of "its not fair" from the PRL
It's not just avoiding relegation, at this point in the season, it's all to play for. A home semi final in the AP playoffs is worth playing for. As such, all the English internationals have played this weekend (and 2 were crocked in the Leicester / Wasps game although I'm not sure that knocking yourself out or dislocating a finger are directly fatigue related)
The avoiding relegation is the excuse for not playing expansive high risk rugby. The penalty for failure is too high - generally the complete decimation of the club.
I also think the AP players are limited to 32 gales a season, as you state, 25 are enough. Effectively the AP players play for 2 more months of the year! I wonder how then, with all that practice, that they seem incapable of the basic skills clearly on show in the rest of the world!
Look at the George North issue recently with Northampton, Alan ‘dean’ Gaffney wanted him to play against Sale, but he wanted to rest to give best conditioning for the Italy game the weekend after
Not a great example as all the England players do get rested by their clubs but any Irish, Welsh, Scots or Italians dont.
A home semi final in the AP playoffs is worth playing for. As such, all the English internationals have played this weekend (and 2 were crocked in the Leicester / Wasps game although I’m not sure that knocking yourself out or dislocating a finger are directly fatigue related)
Again it all depends, Tips, AWJ and all the other Ospreylian Welsh internationals played this weekend.
tinybits - but Leinster were in the same position - that loss this weekend puts them in danger of not getting a home playoff
Some points tho one is that the most successful pro 14 teams like leinster do not have a first 15 plus subs – they have a complete squad with at least 2 players in every position that can seamlessly rotate in and out – I call this the leinster lesson and no team can compete at the top end in europe without this. teams like Sarries spend their money on a first 15 crammed with stars, Leinster on a wider squad. also with a smaller number of teams – 4 Irish compared to 14( ap) then the internationals are more concentrated per team in the pro 14
That's not really true TJ - Sarries over the last two years have been very good at rotating their players and were one of the few AP teams who did so. Low and behold, they were pretty successful during this time. The key was not their superstars getting international call ups but the solid club players like Wray who were there week in week out. These guys were rotated heavily was well.
Trouble for Sarries this season is that they've had a mare with injurues in the pack and have had a few players retire which has meant that the likes of Itoje and Mako have been flogged. It's the loss of the solid club guys (retirement / injury) that's hurt them badly this year because they were the guys that they banked on every week.
Central contracts have proven to be a very good way of managing player welfare and the RFU ballsed up by not adopting this when they had the chance. The number of games modern players are expected to play is not sustainable without rest. The PRL can whine all they want - the only way to even up the rest / freshness issue is to hand back control of international players to the RFU which will never happen now.
Fair enough mindmap. ta
The Irish set up is clearly leading the way in the NH - it's winning at international and domestic level. This mixed with a good crop of players, excellent coaches etc.
I'm not sure that Jones's hard, flogging training methods will be helping the English players, especially those playing an awful lot.
It's never going to be an easy one for the AP teams to solve now - they and the RFU need to work further together.
Leinster had 12 full Ireland internationals in their starting team this weekend. The others were two Ireland U20 caps and one ozzie - Scott Fardy.
Another 4 full Ireland Internationals on the bench, three U20 internationals and a kiwi.
A lot written about the Irish central contracts but the biggest point of difference is the Leinster Academy bringing through crops of players every year that are good enough to play their share of matches.
That , and having a coaching set up thats prioritising the younger players getting gametime at a high level. They're good enough and need to play.
Leinster had 12 full Ireland internationals in their starting team this weekend. The others were two Ireland U20 caps and one ozzie – Scott Fardy.
Another 4 full Ireland Internationals on the bench, three U20 internationals and a kiwi.
32-18
🙂
Indeed, Leinster’s record can in no way compare to the list of trophies in the Ospreys’ cabinet.
Oh hang on, you just went a bit #WelshRugbyTwitter there didn’t you? 😀
those ruddy welshies and their selective use of stats. 😉 Not something I would ever do 😉
That , and having a coaching set up thats prioritising the younger players getting gametime at a high level. They’re good enough and need to play.
There is still an awful lot of conservative picks in the AP - very few of the guys who did will in the U20 WC are getting picked regularly, it's normally only when the other options are broken. Guys like Smith have looked good this season despite being very young. I'd bet that he wouldn't have had a shot if the established players weren't injured.
The game time is more managed though via the central contract system - compared the minutes plated between Farrell and Sexton. It is a much better environment for players especially given the numbers of games that modern players are expected to play.
Regarding Leinster's record vs Ospreys. 4 Pro 14 league championships each. That's a decent achievement for the Ospreys when you consider how many years of the Pro 14 they've been dire! (I'm ignoring the worthless Euro cup wins that Leinster have. Who's interested in beating a bunch of garlic munchers?)
The Ospreys looked good this weekend, like they'd got a decent coach or something.
The Ospreys looked good this weekend, like they’d got a decent coach or something.
Just got rid of the shit coach
Regarding Leinster’s record vs Ospreys. 4 Pro 14 league championships each.
Thats fantastic. I didn’t think Leinster were that good.
As for England, what’s changed in systems since their GS in 2016 and 6N championship win in 2017?
32-18
Important match next week.
You can compare the sexton Farrell minutes and talk about resting but that's not the whole story with Leinster.
It's as much about player development for the likes of Joey carberry and Ross Byrne, getting first team game time so they're good enough 10s that Leinster can still be competing without sexton playing every week.
Likewise players like leavy, Van Der flier, and Conan coming through to take gametime off the likes of heaslip, sob, ruddock
Admittedly, Leinster ( and Munster) did used to take the Mick in the pro 12 when Heineken cup seeding came from Heineken cup previous results. Could send the under 18s over for the Friday night in Wales one man and a dog games. Only needed to be top six to get in. Come to think of it, that might help explain some of those 4 ospreys titles after all.
But is changed a bit now. Pro12 more competitive since seedings started to come from league position. It's made for a better competition
Not sold on this two conference set up yet.
Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding have been cleared of rape today.
The RFU have undertaken a report / study which has found that 36% of injuries are a result of / happen at England training camps and have increased from last year. I'm sure the clubs will be very happy hearing that. It's starting to seem that the shine of Jones is starting to wane a bit.
RE Jackson and Olding - where dies that leave them with Ulster? Will Ulster automatically have to take them back?
Strongly suspect that that's linked to Jones saying the England team weren't fit enough - now they are lean mean broken machines!
Also, tackling should aim for the waist to chest. How do you tackle someone who's ducked / driving forward I wonder?
Legally yes, there's no way that Ulster can't take Jackson and Olding back as I'm lead to believe.... actually though, I'd imagine that they'll be playing in France next year. Certainly what the rumour mill is suggesting.
West is finally leaving Northampton - surprised he lasted after Mallinder went. They seem to be loosing a fair few players too.
Still can't believe that Exeter have signed Cuthbert.
Just seen on my FaceBook newsfeed that Sam Jones who was injured at one of the Engladn training camps has been forced to retire at 26.
Sounds like the injury was pretty bad - ankle dislocation including a fracture of the fibular, damage to the ligaments joing the main ankle bones and a rupture of the medial ligmanet and lots of cartilafe damage. He's had a series of ops and had to abort his comeback attempts.
That's a pretty short sports career.
I believe it was during a Judo bout with Itoje. Sounds nice and safe!
Solomona continues to make himself really hard to like.
Solomona continues to make himself really hard to like.
He comes across as a bit of a dick doesn't he? Good player but undoes a lot of that by being a tit.
Did he not get sent home from the training camp as well?
Did he not get sent home from the training camp as well?
Yup; him and Manu went out on the piss and came back late. Jones said whilst there was no official curfew, it's pretty obvious that going out and getting smashed until the early hours of the morning on a training camp is not vert sensible or grown up.
Back to ERC action this weekend.
Scarlets v La Rochelle, Friday, 1730.
Munster v Toulon, Saturday 1515.
Clermont Auvergne v Racing 92, Sunday, 1300.
Leinster v Saracens, Sunday, 1530.
Odds generally going with home victories - Leinster will have most of their internationals back after having a week off and I think they’ll have too much for Saracens. Munster are beset by injuries but Thomond Park advantage should be enough - although it’s the QF most likely to be won by the away team. The Scarlets La Rochelle game should be a cracker and will probably be the most entertaining. La Rochelle did well in their pool but lost two of their away games and Scarlets should come out of the predicted try-fest. Clermont v Tacing 92 - I haven’t a clue really.
Now for the rules on semi-finals. Frustratingly, despite Munster going into the QFs as the third best team from pool performances, there is no scenario in which they would have home advantage for the SFs. Eg as Racing are ranked 7, their away win would be given more weight than Munster’s home win. Can’t quite figure it all out.
EDIT: Or as Paul O’Connell wrote, always an away semi-final in France. 🙄
The format for the semi-final matches in the Champions Cup recognises performances by clubs during the pool stages as well as the achievement of clubs winning quarter-final matches away from home.
The winner of QF1 will play the winner of QF2 in one semi-final, and the winner of QF3 will play the winner of QF4 in the other semi-final as follows:
Semi-final 1: Leinster Rugby or Saracens v Scarlets or La Rochelle
Semi-final 2: Munster Rugby or RC Toulon v ASM Clermont Auvergne or Racing 92The semi-final matches will be played at venues designated by EPCR, but the following clubs will have home country advantage in their respective semi-final matches:
(a) For Semi-final 1
If Leinster Rugby (ranked 1) and Scarlets (ranked 4) win their QFs, Leinster will have home country advantage
If Leinster Rugby (ranked 1) and La Rochelle (ranked 5) win their QFs, La Rochelle will have home country advantage
If Saracens (ranked 8) and Scarlets (ranked 4) win their QFs, Saracens will have home country advantage
If Saracens (ranked 8) and La Rochelle (ranked 5) win their QFs, La Rochelle will have home country advantage
(b) For Semi-final 2
If Munster Rugby (ranked 3) and ASM Clermont Auvergne (ranked 2) win their QFs, Clermont will have home country advantage
If Munster Rugby (ranked 3) and Racing 92 (ranked 7) win their QFs, Racing 92 will have home country advantage
If RC Toulon (ranked 6) and ASM Clermont Auvergne (ranked 2) win their QFs, RC Toulon will have home country advantage
If RC Toulon (ranked 6) and Racing 92 (ranked 7) win their QFs, RC Toulon will have home country advantage
Interesting article on the beeb about reffing and high tackles in the ap the gist is that ap refs are not strict enough on high tackles
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43590257
Looking forward to the Scarlets game - could be a cracker
Re cuthbert and chiefs. It follows their current ball carrying backs who never pass ethos.
Dolman must have thw stickiest hand in Rugby he's so unable to pass.
Re cuthbert and chiefs. It follows their current ball carrying backs who never pass ethos.
Cuthberts problem is not passing, its catching it first..
Actually he's been pretty solid for Blues this season. Picks good lines in the 22. If Brew can make a living playing for Bath Cuthbert can do well for Exeter. He has essentially given up on Wales so could be a decent buy. Wingers are not picked for their passing so who cares about that.
Lets us not forget when given the ball in space he is very good. Just dont expect him to be great in defence.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TwVmkSlrLHQ
Try scoring test Lion. Many would love to be as shit as him!
Too youmg to remember all this
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12023491
That a good story, I remember googling it and somebody managed to get a couple of minutes with him on film. Lives quietly with only the odd dead burglar breaking him desire for obscurity.
Sad news about the Ozzie 7s captain -suckerpunched by some English scumbag. Apparently, he’s recovering but will be out of the Commonwealth Games
Scarlets / La roichelle all a bit frantic. Plenty of excitement but not a lot of quality. all to play for in the second half
Tidy
good win but hardly a game of free flowing skill. As a neutral a bit disappointed in the spectacle.
As a neutral a bit disappointed in the spectacle
I can live with that 😁
Sad news about the Ozzie 7s captain -suckerpunched by some English scumbag. Apparently, he’s recovering but will be out of the Commonwealth Games
Doesnt specify he was English in the article. The dick who did it was described as British. Last time I checked Great Britain included Wales, Scotland and Nothern Ireland. Just saying...
Exeter won the pointless cup. Good win for Newcastle yesterday too.
Jaysus. Crazy game of rugby in Limerick. Munster win it 20-19 after Conway’s counter attacking try on 75 minutes. Another semi-final in France awaits. And breathe.
Munster’s home advantage wins them another game. Best ref in the world or biggest bottler in Ireland?