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Strength in depth
I think all scotland fans were really fearful of what injuries would do for us this 6N. However over the last couple of years injuries have forced us to play alternatives and many of them have looked the part. Its one real bonus for scotland - we really are approaching a situation where subs do not reduce the quality much. The only players we really cannot replace are Russell ( but on this years display Horne is not really far behind) and Watson - cos there is not another player in the world like him and he is very important to how we play. I don't think he would be nearly as effective wider out. He needs to be in close. Remember he does not have a size advantage over most backs! I think the way the more experienced players in the scottish teams often move on in their 20s really helps our strength in depth as it creates chances for youngsters. Take Russell. Yes his moving to France will hurt Glasgow in the short term but it means Hastings will get first team starts next season at 10 - a big ask for young man but it should help him develop more quickly. If Biggar had moved on a couple of years ago how much more experiences would Sam Davies be now? Russell started getting regular Glasgow starts at 19 / 20 IIRC
I'd definitely have Barclay in over Shingler, potentially Falatau in over Stander too? Otherwise it's hard to argue with that team for me. Honourable mention to Negri from Italy as he has had a great tournament.
Paul rees in the grauniads team well worth a laugh
15 Minozzi (Italy); 14 Earls(Ireland), 13 H Jones (Scotland), 12 Farrell (England), 11 Stockdale (Ireland); 10 Sexton (Ireland), 9 Murray (Ireland); 1 Healy (Ireland), 2 Guirado (France), 3 Furlong (Ireland), 4 Henderson (Ireland), 5 AW Jones (Wales), 6 Shingler (Wales), 7 Camara (France), 8 Stander (Ireland)
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Jones the only Scot? did he watch the games? Farrell at 12? gruaniad rugby writers have a long history of disregarding scottish rugby
I'd like to find a place for McInally at hooker - I thought he had a great series.
World rankings mean less now than at any other time. This time last year they mattered, with seeding and WC groups to sort but not now. Worth nothing.
Six nations table too. It's probably the least important of the 4 year cycle , it's the perfect tournament for bit of experimenting and blooding youngsters. Get the plan together this year then build momentum and confidence next.
Grand slams a bit different mind
"Jones the only Scot? did he watch the games?"
Sounds about right. Only one Italian too and given the last round of matches Scotland and Italy were more or less on a par.
It's fun choosing 'teams of the tournament' or whatever but at the end of the day you could pick the 15 best players in the world but they wouldn't necessarily make a winning team.
That said, there's positives for most. Scotland and Wales really built some depth where they had injuries. And scored tries.
And France were just a couple of kicks away from two more wins. They look in a great place to challenge next year an really get their shit together just in time for the WC again. Really glad Ireland haven't got them in group again, they'll be brutal.
And England are a different team with Billy V. They'll be better next time.
I’d definitely have Barclay in over Shingler, potentially Falatau in over Stander too?
Faletau is a better player than Stander but injury meant he only had ine big performance. Barclay is the 3rd best flanker at Scarlets!!!
To be honest Barclay gives away too many pens. Was rubbish v Wales and Ireland.
Guirado is a good shout from Guardian, some of the others rubbish.
Team of the tournament is Ireland's 23 from yesterday. Player of the tournament James Ryan. Or maybe that outside center who sent Bundee through with that little switch pass for the Stander try.
psling - sure its hard to argue for any more scots bar Barclay but Jones at 13? He was not the best 13 on show.
If Biggar had moved on a couple of years ago how much more experiences would Sam Davies be now?
Not much more, he's not good enough anyway.
Falletau s a great player but it wasn't his Tournament this time.
Guirado and Bastero would be next in line as Irish ' finishers'.
"Team of the tournament is Ireland’s 23 from yesterday."
Ireland definitely played the best rugby of the tournament imo but...
if Sexton's glorious drop goal didn't go over in round 1 and
if the TMO had picked up Kearney's left hand knock on and England had slotted their kicks then
Ireland would be near the bottom of the table! What ifs, eh!
Having said the above [tongue in cheek!], Ireland are indeed worthy Grand Slam winners and still a developing team.
If you think of what other teams players woulod improve Ireland its pretty hard to swap many . Barclay? Ickle Jonny / AWJ Beyond those two ( Grey/ AWJ one of them can take one lock place) its hard for me to see a single player from any other team that would improve ireland and those are arguable
" – sure its hard to argue for any more scots bar Barclay but Jones at 13? He was not the best 13 on show."
I get the impression that quite often when these types of team lists are made they select the forwards, the half-backs and a full back then make up the numbers!
Do you select attacking flair, defensive solidity, a play maker, a dead-cert kicking machine (look at No. 10 Trinh-Duc yesterday, 100% record previously).
Thank goodness everyone's opinions are different really.
In this case I think ( given the Guardians history on scottish rugby) its was more a case of - we have to put a scot in - Jones scored some tries - he will do. Usually they put Hogg in
psling, I am with you on this.
One of the things that has pissed me off about the english press over the years is that every little win we have is hailed as agreat display by the uncommony brilliant red rose heros, and I know that really pisses off the other countries too. Oftentimes our wins are down to marginal calls by the ref or tiny mistakes, but the plaudits are massive and the losers vilified. I never enjoy it even on the winning side, it feels delusional.
I feel much the same about this destruction in the press, here and on social media. We lost due to, some bad ref calls, some bad luck, and obviously some bad play, and loss of confidence. However I do no feel that this team is dead in the water and I would caution anyone to bet against them in the next game.
Not main stream thinking but I would look to squeeze North in at 14 though he'd probably make an excellent wing-forward too!
AA - barlay was not rubbish against Ireland 28 tackles. He was immense all series. He also only gave away 4 penalties all series. For me man of the series. His captaincy and turnovers /work rate were cruicial
If you think of what other teams players woulod improve Ireland its pretty hard to swap many . Barclay? Ickle Jonny / AWJ Beyond those two ( Grey/ AWJ one of them can take one lock place) its hard for me to see a single player from any other team that would improve ireland and those are arguable
A number of fullbacks better than Kearney and a few wingers better than Earls, Bundee Aki is nothing special. Irish pack and halfbacks would be hard to improve on though.
barlay was not rubbish against Ireland 28 tackles. He was immense all series. He also only gave away 4 penalties all series. For me man of the series. His captaincy and turnovers /work rate were cruicial
Crucial to attaining 3rd place, great. I like Barclay, he plays for my favourite team after all but he's not that brilliant a player. Good international, not stand out world class, gives away too many pens.
After Jones said that some of yesterday’s team have played their last game for England, any guesses who he’s referring to? Some contenders off the top of my head:
Hartley?
Haskell?
Wigglesworth?
Joseph?
If he has any sense it would be Wigglesworth , Hask and Simmons ( as an 8) maybe Teo.
Haskell wasn’t that bad yesterday and bought some form of enthusiasm. But again he’s gettin in and his form has been shit since he hurt his toe
Hartely’s days must be numbered; George and Cowan-Dickis both offer a lot more. Wigglesworth was only ever there as a band aid fix but again wasn’t that that bad and certainly controlled the game better than Care.
Cole surely needs to be on the list; he does sweet FA.
After Jones said that some of yesterday’s team have played their last game for England, any guesses who he’s referring to? Some contenders off the top of my head:
Hartley?
Haskell?
Wigglesworth?
Joseph?
I thought Joseph looked scarily good when he played 2 or 3 years ago. Players lose form at times, but it can come back. Or is it those around him, not allowing him to play at his best?
I hear often that England has the biggest pool of players to choose from, which makes sense. Are France on a par?
Cole surely needs to be on the list; he does sweet FA.
Didnt Sinkler start yesterday and was a bit pants in the scrum?
Eddie needs to balance his squad. An injury to the only proper 7 and he's playing second rows on the flank. An injury to a 9 and he's reaching for a 34 year old who's not played for England (for good reason) for a long time. Poor depth at centre too.
The whole squad is overdue a comprehensive overhaul.
England have 2 million registered players ( I find that hard to believe) and 130 000 senior men players France 350 000 and 125000 Ireland 150000 and 140000. Scotloand 38000 and 36000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries
Seems a bit odd to me those numbers tho.
Seems a bit odd to me those numbers tho.
Yes, thanks Tj - I guess those numbers aren’t overly useful to get an idea of how big a pool of players each coach has to draw upon.
I think Scotland has around 60 pro players England 2 or 3 hundred
Makes precisely zero difference. There is no reason that the best 15 english players would be any better than 15 from any there nation regardless of a size of the pool, there are far more important factors as demonstrated by NZ. The VAST majority of those registered players are very far removed from those we watch on TV, it only demonstrates the health of the amateur game in England.
Look at NZ, a small population but their culture around the game, their coaching and to some extent the physical predisposition of the indigenous population ( and those surrounding...ahem) means that they are one of the most dominant sports teams ever. If the PI's had a pot to piss in, they'd probably be scary good too.
In B & I, and Australia there are far more popular sports meaning that the nations don't attach the importance or significance to the game that NZ do.
I think Scotland has around 60 pro players England 2 or 3 hundred
<div>Likely more in both cases I reckon. I'd be suprised if Glasgow and Edinburgh only had playing squads of 30. I think Bristol had 55 odd on the books fairly recently.</div>
Didnt Sinkler start yesterday and was a bit pants in the scrum?
Yes. Our props are either slow fat lumps who are good in the scrum or mobile guys who can’t scrum for shit. Cole has been playing a lot for Tigers (regularly plays 80mins) but seems to be a spent force more and more these days. Aside from scrum and give away penalties he does sweet FA these days.
The squad does need a few new faces and an attack coach wouldn’t go amiss.
Edinburgh squad is 34 scotland qualified players 42 in total I just counted them. Glasgow around 40 scots qualified out of 58 - a few of the players I am not sure of their nationality . That Glasgow squad includes some academy players I think Scottish teams have less than half the budget of the smallest of the english teams I believe. It is more than I thought tho give another dozen or so scots playing pro rugby outside of Scotland. well under a hundred tho scots pro players and that includes both some kids and some ready to retire
the more players you have the more chance you have of unearthing stars but yes - the size of the pool does not dictate its depth
We've done this before TJ.....Sale (arguably THE smallest English team) have no where near double the budget of Embra and Glasgow. Aren't they both around the 5m mark? Sale are "significantly under the salary cap" according to an interview by Steve Diamond at the start of the year....
Worcester and Irish will be well under the cap too.
the players budget total is around 4 million for each of the teams or a little more English salary cap is 7 million IIRC and yo get various other categories of players that are not included in the cap and many / most english teams break the cap anyway. The 4 million or so that Glasgow have for players is every single player. so maybe not half the budget of the smaller teams but well less than half the average
That's what I'm lead to believe mindmap3
Looking at it again those edinburgh and Glasgow squads include academy players who I believe do not count for salery cap in England
I am amazed that a thread about rugby has gone to 87 pages on an mtb forum.
Thanks for your insightful input.
I am amazed that a thread about rugby has gone to 87 pages on an mtb forum.
Are we we not allowed to chat about rugby if we like bikes?
Corofin won the ball game I watched yesterday and the small ball game went to a replay.
Oh, a Gaaaaa man. The Corofin - Nemo Rangers game was a masterclass and the Na Piarsiagh (my club as a teenager) - Cuala game sounded like an epic. However, this is a rugby thread sweetheart, and you won’t find a great deal of interest in Gaelic Games here, as much as they’re awesome. Have you anything else useful to add?
Of course you can "I'm only sayin is all".
I'm not a gaaaa man I'm a 24 hour solo mtb man .