So Bruce what's the point of a video ref, we might as well not bother!
AA - Yes it does
So in that case, I call no try and I'm smarter than all of you added together so we better alert the authorities.
TJ - that is what I have been saying all month, England are crap. Lucky to beat Italy. I am the first to argue that a lot of match stats mean not much. EG Full backs that counter attack always look like they make a lot of meters but running from behind the 22 to the half way match 4 times a game can make you look awesome on paper, but it means naff all if you don't break the gain line (eg Steward, and Capuozzo to a degree).
So that tackle count thing may or may not be meaningful.
Eg what counts as a missed tackle. Look at VDM, he couldn't beat anything like the defenders vs Wales on Sat, he bounced off plenty but mostly did not make it past them, do they count as missed tackles? I am not sure because the way he bounces off them and goes back looking for a softer person to hit, even the best defenders can't complete those tackles.
However - both Italy's tries were due to easily pluggable holes in Englands defence. So the stats fit my confirmation bias. They suck.
Plus he puts the ball down on the touch line at the same time as over the try line. Doesn’t that count as in touch?
I agree that the toe of his boot has clearly touched blades of grass, if not the actual solid structure of the ground underneath. As I said at the time before seeing the third angle, clear and obvious would have been that his ankle rotates from pressure with the ground and it doesn't. But the third angle absolutely confirms his toe was in the nap of the grass, even if still above the soil.
So by the same token, on the grounding you have to be certain that the ball hasn't touched a single solitary blade of grass within the line before it touches one outside. Simple logic around the bulge of the ball to me means you can't say that with certainty, therefore you have to allow the grounding as being not a clear and obvious error.
Which is moot because it was a line out ages earlier, obvs.
So Bruce what’s the point of a video ref, we might as well not bother!
It's a good question.
Would you accept a video ref pointing out that a scrum put-in wasn't at exactly 90 degrees when asked to confirm a try scored directly from that put-in?
Refs are allowed a lot of leeway in rugby. If Barnes decides the grass doesn't count as ground it is definitely not the most egregious example of the letter of the law not being followed.
Like I said, I'd like to see the letter of the law followed but that particular try is not where I'd choose to start.
And by the way, there is no way the ball touched the whitewash before it was grounded. Not unless the ball was dumbbell shaped rather than rugby ball shaped.
England are crap. Lucky to beat Italy
Can we lay of this England are crap talk until after Wales have played them because Wales really are crap!
Would you accept a video ref pointing out that a scrum put-in wasn’t at exactly 90 degrees when asked to confirm a try scored directly from that put-in?
No, because squint put in are 'allowed' foot in touch tries are not.
Watching the games recently the 9's couldn't put the ball down the middle if they wanted to as the ref is stood in the way!
And by the way, there is no way the ball touched the whitewash before it was grounded.
I think that is a genuine tough call where bod should go to attacker, I wonder if looking at that took the attention away from the foot in touch element.
Can we go back and review this one using the same tmo? 🙂
No, because squint put in are ‘allowed’ foot in touch tries are not.
They're accepted, not allowed.
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/19
15. f. - Straight. The scrum-half may align their shoulder on the middle line of the scrum, thereby standing a shoulder-width closer to their side of the scrum.
Refs have collectively decided not to enforce that particular law and allow angled put-ins.
Wayne Barnes seems to have accepted toes skimming grass as being OK, even if it's not allowed.
I know the picture's another foot in touch example but look at the try line, it's not even flat.
If he touched the ball down in line with his right knee or cock there's grass sticking up like a cowfield. The ball could be well back and still brushing the whitewashed blades.
Halfway between there's a depression and he'd have to be that bit further forward to trigger the grassometer.
This variability is making the game a farce. The sooner it's transferred to pressure sensitive green baize the better.
Seriously, that doesn’t obviously show foot on ground, you need an eye test mate (at least me and you get them half price!!)
Certainly looks like it. Equally, I've seen clearly grounded "catches" in cricket, when shown front on. Take a side on view and you see the catch was clean.
5plus8 I think it hardly likely scotland will beat both France and ireland by 17 pts! would be nice tho
I think the other angle shows it clearly in touch. the front on one is not "clear and obvious" which is what is needed to change the on field decision
its a mistake tho
last season everyone was complaining about how long TMO referrals were taking so this year they have tried to speed it up - this is the result
Mistakes get made
This forum is great, a page of discussion if the grass is officially classified as the ground…..
First angle; foot in touch, second not, third unseen by Barnes at the time. Now can we move onto the suggestion the Lamb-lovers may go on strike instead of playing England?
I read that England would win 5 points by default. That would be very boring. We should run the u21s or the women instead.
Lamb-lovers may go on strike instead of playing England?
Seems a good idea.
Gwladrugby
Everybody out
Things are bad.
Things are really bad.
The year 2023 will, in all likelihood, prove to be a watershed year for the Welsh Rugby Union.
We have so far seen accusations of rampant sexism, racism and misogyny levelled at the Union. The Chief Executive, Steve Phillips, eventually bowed to the inevitable and resigned. The new acting CEO, Nigel Walker, and Ieuan Very Much So Evans – the cosmic void currently, for want of a better term, chairing the WRU – were hauled before a Senedd committee. Yesterday, homophobia was added to the list. And more misogyny, for good measure.
These many and varied abominations are the subject of a welcome external inquiry, to be led by Dame Anne Rafferty.
So, the WRU have probably had better years than 2023.
And it’s only February 14th, for pity’s sake.
That’s enough for one decade, surely?
Well, as a matter of fact, it isn’t. Not by a long shot.
Bubbling under the appalling tales of the mistreatment of WRU staff and others was the ongoing saga of the tortuous negotiations aimed at securing a new, six-year agreement on the financing of the elite game in Wales from 1 July 2023.
Rumbling on for a year and more, they were due to reach a conclusion in December 2022 (just after the sacking of the national men’s team coach after a series of poor results). Then they would definitely be resolved within days of being finalised (just after the BBC Wales Investigates programme which exposed much of the culture which had been rotting the WRU from the head down for decades).
They haven’t reached a conclusion, although Heads of Terms were signed which would allow the professional clubs to offer conditional contracts to some players.
Conditional. Dependent on the final agreement.
Meanwhile, it is estimated that comfortably over 70 players are out of contract in Wales this summer. That’s another four months of salary, of security, of certainty. And then…who knows.
Players are now starting to break cover.
If a report carried in today’s Daily (cough) Mail (yes, sorry about that, and no, I’m not going to link to it) is to be believed (yes, in the Daily Mail), the draft agreement is so appalling, so egregious, and so typical of the WRU’s “we own you…know your place” worldview, that it confirms the suspicion that there is a consistently nasty thread running through the WRU’s treatment of anybody who isn’t an old white man in a gravy-stained WRU blazer.
Some senior players – speaking anonymously – spoke of the effect of the endless prevarication over the new framework. One was taking anti-depressants. Another had been unable to secure a mortgage. Another, now based outside Wales but a regular Test player, said that he had no desire to come back to Wales to play. Another said that he had never known it to be this bad. Yet another had put his home up for sale and had moved back in with his parents as he couldn’t risk keeping a roof over his head in the current climate.
Astonishingly, amidst the chaos, the agreement also apparently has a clause which allows the WRU to fine a professional club “…if they let someone who is in Gatland’s 36-man player of national interest group move on”.
Which is just about the most amazing thing I’ve ever read. One business feels it is entitled to fine another business if an employee of that second business moves on?
This is insane.
The draft agreement as it is surely cannot stand.
The Union will either reform and survive, or it will die. And, with it, the game of rugby union as – if not quite the national sport of Wales, since football has always held that mantle – perhaps a sport which has a sometimes unique hold on the hearts of its people.
For now, the players – through the Welsh Rugby Players Association – are scheduled to meet, where all options, including a strike ahead of the England game, are to be considered.
There can be few genuine supporters of the game in Wales who would not have the greatest sympathy with the players. They are being expected to put their bodies on the line with the real possibility of being thrown on the scrapheap in four months.
The Welsh Rugby Blazer fears little. His spot at the trough is guaranteed, through thick and thin, as those who were in Edinburgh last weekend would attest. The one thing he – and yes, it is always a he – fears is the ridicule of a fellow blazer.
Having to cancel a shindig around the England game and missing out on a night at the trough might just be enough to sharpen a few minds.
One player, described as a Six Nations squad member, said: “I can’t believe I’m five months away from the end of my contract and eight months away from the World Cup and my future isn’t certain yet.
“I can’t apply for a mortgage and I’m on antidepressants. I’m also one big injury away from not having a job in July, yet I’m starting for Wales every week and the WRU is making tens of millions from international matches.”
But apart from that everything is fine?
They do seem to love a drama in Wales 🙂
if not quite the national sport of Wales, since football has always held that mantle
Not sure I agree with that...maybe it depends what part of Wales you come from
if not quite the national sport of Wales, since football has always held that mantle
Not sure I agree with that…maybe it depends what part of Wales you come from
I think as a National sport, hence considering the whole nation, football is the number one sport in Wales. ie the one most people are most passionate about.
However, imho international rugby brings Wales together as a nation, more than football . This is due to Wales’ success and the regularity of the 6Nations and its accessibility on terrestrial TV. With the shitshow the WRU is in, this may not go on for much longer.
They do seem to love a drama in Wales
I think the fact that the region's have not been told budgets, if a region is to be disbanded or which region it would be and they cannot sign players or renew contracts which expire in a few months is reason to be alarmed. Meanwhile players who sign for teams outside Wales cannot play for Wales unless they have 60 caps. If this isn't resolved and resolved fast the regions will be decimated and they are already shit. Kalamifoni has left Scarlets to go to Div 2 in France FFS, he's pretty much Scarlets best player. Rowlands is leaving Dragons, he's there best player. Cardiff are losing the very promising Max Llewellyn with Jarod Evans and Liam Williams looking like going. Meanwhile Ospreys are the region looking most likely to be folded and so who would even sign a contract with them even if they could, it looks like Nicky Smith is off
Is one of the issues not that the stumbling block is the salary cap? I think Wales online reported it as £270k? For all the clubs going bust you can top that easily in the Prem if you are an international. Add in the fact that you are at the peak of your earning potential when reaching your mid to late 20's while probably not quite at 60 caps. Wyn Jones; 31, Lion and established international; 46 caps. You then have a decision to make if a player in a short career. That seemed very one-eyed to me when it was introduced as it suggested a significant detachment from any understanding of market forces. One thing the SRU got right was recognising that we were wee paying fish in a big pool and being happy to pay the odd release fee. Plus, what improves you as a player? Premiership or playing Munster 2xv?
Is one of the issues not that the stumbling block is the salary cap? I think Wales online reported it as £270k
In the short term I think being completely unable to sign a contract at all is the bigger issue. The cap is tiered as far as I recall depending on international caps or whatever..not sure if details. The bottom.line is, if we can't retain our best players with competitive salaries we should then compound the issue by not being able to select them for Wales.
Just do what RFU have done. You only play for England if you play in England, but we reserve the right to change that steadfast rule if we want.
Just do what RFU have done
Which is fine if you have a club structure that can pay competitive salaries.
we reserve the right to change that steadfast rule if we want.
Who have they broke that for?
Willis, basically any wasp or warrior who's gone abroad and might be good enough.
I think that's a fair enough exception
I think the whole concept of you can only play for a country if you play in that country is stupid. Players develop and improve if they are exposed to wider experiences, it stops your teams getting clogged up with aging internationals and allows space for youth to come thru.
I think its a large part of the issues in Wales. they pay too much to keep the stars in wales and leaves not enough money for a wider squad.
There is a long list of Scots players who became better in the mid part of their careers for moving outside of Scotland. Russell, Both Gray brothers, Redpath, Hogg, etc etc and these guys moving on allowed yoth to come thru - S Cummings, Horne jn, etc etc
Willis, basically any wasp or warrior who’s gone abroad and might be good enough.
Thats only for this season I think.
You've then got LRZ and Tommy Reffel being allowed to stay at Gloucs and Tigers as they've signed open ended rolling contracts (apparently). Even Gatland doesn't like his own rule!
You’ve then got LRZ and Tommy Reffel being allowed to stay at Gloucs and Tigers as they’ve signed open ended rolling contracts (apparently
Francis it was who did that, got rumbled eventually.
LRZ, Reffell, Jenkins, Tshiunza etc have not been offered contracts in Wales. I expect as no Welsh regions are offering anyone a contract at the moment they will be pretty safe and see it as time to renew
it stops your teams getting clogged up with aging internationals and allows space for youth to come thru.
I think its a large part of the issues in Wales.
You have said this before but I don't agree. Losing all the top Welsh talent from Wales wouldn't mean we could pick up similar foreigners as the WRU pays part of the Welsh players wages. The Scottish system with just two club sides means it's a very different system. The Scottish club sides are pretty decent and still no one goes to see them play. The only Welsh games that are well attended in the URC are the derbies, lose them and the game dies a bit more.
The Scottish club sides are pretty decent and still no one goes to see them play.
Errmmm - both are sellouts or near sellouts every game. Glasgow have outgrown Scotstoon attendences are up
Gallagher prem is a good sized league but if all the England players "have" to play in it then the style of play becomes limited. Some good English club sides look pedestrian against what should be lesser teams because the style of play they are used to is prem play. It may be the national sides problem too.
From behind the Times paywall
Players feel shafted – I support a strike and would not have signed this deal
I stand with every player in Wales, not only the top Test stars – this is not far off blackmail by the WRU
Sam Warburton
Wednesday February 15 2023, 5.00pm, The Times
Wales’s poor performances in the first two Six Nations matches against Ireland and Scotland make more sense now. The players have clearly been distracted by the row about contracts, with the Welsh Rugby Union and the four regions unable to agree on a financial model, as the proposed standardised contracts on offer are significantly reduced from those given before.
The players clearly do not feel valued by the WRU and that has affected their performances on the field, and I can see why. I would be the same. They will be thinking: “Why are we busting our guts and putting our bodies on the line just to line other people’s pockets when we are expected to take paycuts?”
I know from speaking to some of them this week that this issue has been really bugging the Wales players, and the feeling is so strong that the threat to strike is very real. They feel like they are, for want of a better expression, being shafted. So, I totally support the players and their threat to strike should some sensible agreement not be reached. If I was still playing, I would not sign these new contracts.
There will obviously be people who say that they would play for Wales for free, and they will scoff at players suddenly earning £280,000 rather than £400,000, and I understand what they are saying, but there is a principle at stake here.
This is not just about the top players. It is actually more about the second or third-choice regional players on £50,000 who have families and mortgages and do not know whether they will have a contract at the end of the season or not. The international players will probably be fine, even if they are not on wages that are necessarily their market value, but they are only about 10 to 20 per cent of the total players in Wales; it is the others that are in danger here.
It needs to be stressed that Wales’s players are not overpaid. The contracts they have are in line with the other countries. They know that, under the new proposals, on average they will probably be on 30 per cent less than their English, Irish and Scottish counterparts.
A big gripe is that only 80 per cent of the contract will be guaranteed, with the rest being based on bonuses for winning. The players feel that, because the overall budget is being reduced significantly, the chances of winning are naturally going to be much slimmer.
They feel like they are being asked to put pen to paper on contracts that are bound to be 30 or 40 per cent down on those they have now. And they are pretty miffed that none of the coaches or staff (at the regions or the WRU) are going to be on this type of contract.
“Why is it just us?” they are quite rightly asking. They have already taken a hit after Covid and you can understand their frustration when they hear that apparently a lot of the money the WRU received from CVC has been used for capital projects and not invested immediately in the professional game.
My feeling is that the WRU almost want to drive the regions into administration, so they can take them over (they already own Dragons). I know for certain that last month, if it hadn’t been for the generosity of the long-term benefactor Peter Thomas, in helping pay players and staff, Cardiff would have followed Wasps and Worcester Warriors into administration. I’m also pretty sure that at least one of the other regions has been in the same boat and has been similarly saved in the short term.
The regions are trying to live off money from an old agreement with the WRU because the money from the new agreement hasn’t come through, even though they are supposed to be in year one of it. They simply can’t cope. The hope is that the new chairman and interim chief executive, Ieuan Evans and Nigel Walker, change the WRU’s stance quickly and try to help the regions, but if they don’t, then I fear that we could see all the regions fold and have to be taken over by the WRU.
That is where the threat of a strike for the England match causes a bit of a dilemma. The England game is the biggest money-maker of all the games played in Cardiff and not having it would cripple the WRU, and that would almost certainly send the regions into immediate administration. So will the players actually be achieving anything by striking?
When I was a player in 2011, we threatened to strike. But that was for World Cup warm-up games, and therefore nowhere near the profile and value of this Six Nations clash against England.
It was just before I was made captain and we had meetings with the chief executive and financial officer of the WRU during a training camp in Poland. I was on the leadership group as the young player and I found it all really awkward. But that was about what we were getting paid to play for Wales, not general contracts across the board, as it is now.
This is also where the debate about the 60-cap rule is interesting. I actually think Warren Gatland would like it to go, but, if it does, I think there will be an exodus of players, probably the biggest number we have ever seen go at one time. My view is that it is a good rule as long as the players are paid fairly in Wales. To have it in place and then offer these contracts is plain wrong. It is almost as if the players are being blackmailed to stay.
If the new salary cap is going to be £4.5 million per region, which is some £3 million less than some regions are receiving now (they all receive different amounts according to a number of performance criteria), then surely the 60-cap rule should be abolished. How can the regions keep all their players when, for example, I know that at the moment Cardiff only have £400,000 left in their budget for next season for 15 players? Either your squad is going to be very small or it is going to be full of very cheap, under-par players!
Players are soon going to ask the question: “What is more important? Looking after my family or staying in Wales to play for my country?”
This has been a long-running battle in many different guises. I once nearly went to Toulon before I became the first player to sign a dual contract (with the WRU and the then Cardiff Blues).
I had made an agreement with Gatland. He had sat me down and said: “What do you think your market value is?” I was a bit taken aback by the directness of the question, but I told him, and, almost to my surprise, he agreed with it.
But that figure also had to be agreed by the WRU and my agent eventually had to put a deadline to them, saying that if we didn’t get agreement by that time I would have to leave because my other offers would be taken off the table. It wasn’t until the very last moment that the WRU agreed, so for about 12 hours I thought I was going to Toulon. I actually remember ringing my wife and saying that we were going to France.
This is different. This is a collective angle, and it is about the players who earn much less. That is why I support the strike.
Antonio given three match ban for high tackle that should have been a red
The player admitted that he had committed an act of foul play worthy of a red card," a Six Nations statement read.
"Having reviewed all the evidence, the committee accepted the player's admission that the tackle on Ireland number two was foul play.
"His shoulder made contact with Ireland number two's neck/face as described in the citing commissioner's report, and therefore reached the red-card threshold."
What a strange place I find myself in as a Scotland fan 
We are playing well, we have a settled side, we have no obvious weak points, we have strength in depth, we are playing attractive rugby, 5th in the world rankings
It can only mean one thing - We are doomed!
I'm just enjoying this while it lasts.
My Scotland predictions for the rest of the year:
- Beat either France or Ireland, go into Italy game needing to beat them by 5 points to win 6Ns. Beat them by 2.
- Go out in group stages of WC having almost beaten both Ireland and South Africa
- Franco Smith appointed as Scotland head coach. Work experience kid from local school appointed Glasgow head coach
- Finish 5th in 2024 6Ns (Wales still on strike)
Work experience kid from local school appointed Glasgow head coach
Still beat the posh lads.
Long read, but the home nations different approaches and pay scales.
England players are contracted by their clubs, with the best paid receiving in excess of £750,000 a year, while also receiving international payments. The England players, however, are under the most duress because of the competing demands of club and country, which means safeguarding rules such as enforced rest periods are routinely broken.
Senior Wales players such as Alun Wyn Jones are on dual contracts, with the WRU paying up to 80 per cent of their salaries, which can be about £400,000 per year. Most regional players are on substantially less and could earn a higher basic wage by leaving Wales — although aspiring international players would have to forego a Test career to do so.
Ireland benefit from the most joined-up approach in the Six Nations, with the provinces and national team working in synergy. Johnny Sexton came into the championship having played around half the minutes of Romain Ntamack, his opposite number for France. However, the contracts can be a reflection of the financial strength of the province. Munster are not flush and so Conor Murray and Peter O’Mahony are on national deals. Leinster’s budget would compare with the biggest in Europe and so Caelan Doris and Josh van der Flier, the world player of the year, have just been promoted to central deals.
Scotland
Every professional player for Glasgow and Edinburgh is contracted to the SRU, which operates different pay bands based on experience. There was a cap of around £350,000 for the best players but that is thought to have gone up to around £400,000, which would match what some England players earn in the Premiership.
England players are contracted by their clubs, with the best paid receiving in excess of £750,000 a year, while also receiving international payments
This is a bit misleading as probably only Itoji and Farrell are on that kind of money (maybe one or two other Saracens players, Vunipola's). Certainly none of the Tigers lads get paid that much. Last season Ford and Genge were our (Tigers) top earners at around 500k each I think. Both apparently took wage cuts to move to Sale and Bristol.
Most of the England lads would be on club salaries of 2-400k I reckon. If Tigers are anything to go by. From what I've read on the Tigers forum.
International payments were reduced to 17.5k from 25k a year or so ago as well I think.
Reckon the Wales players will go on strike? Got a ticket to the match but feels a bit grubby supporting the WRU rather than the team, so not sure I’d be gutted if they went ahead and walked out TBH.
Strike for this game would be catastrophic for Welsh rugby, loss of revenue is supposedly £9 million. I can't see how that helps the players in the long run. Solution is to lose a region or just join forces with the Premiership. You then have a chance of decent away attendances at home games. Hugely detrimental for URC but probably slightly less so than it was before SA teams joined.
or just join forces with the Premiershi
That ship sailed decades ago. The prem clubs would never allow it
I can’t see how that helps the players in the long run.
It makes the WRU realise who holds the cards.
The WRU want performance related pay scales whilst slashing the budgets of the regions that are already unable to compete...you would have to be crazy to sign up to that
You realise when they get this sorted out, Wales will hammer England now?
Its just a forgone conclusion at this stage.
