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A relative (female) pulled onto a 30mph road and was hit in the drivers side/corner. The other party (young lad with 2 weeks experience) skidded for 40-45' before hitting her car with enough force to render it an insurance* right-off.
Obviously she's in the wrong for pulling out when there was traffic approaching. He claims he wasn't speeding and is also now claiming whiplash. Conviently for him (the accident happened very close to his house) his family/neighbours were very quick to move both vehicles and surround her, putting the blame firmly on her shoulders, despite no-one actually witnessing the incident.
Due to the bank holiday, the insurance companies have not been involved yet, but will most likely tomorrow. Anyone have advice which I can pass on to her which might help. She's not trying to screw the system but is having trouble putting it out of her mind.
Thanks.
*she works in a car dealership and the mechs say it'll cost twice what the car is worth to put right.
Obviously she's in the wrong for pulling out when there was traffic approaching
Yep, that's it. Open and shut case to be fair. The other guy speeding or not doesn't really come into it. Sorry....
Obviously she's in the wrong for pulling out when there was traffic approaching.
Sorry - 'fraid that really does pretty much sum it up, rightly or wrongly, thats the way it is 🙁
...unless the guy was coming round a blind corner well in excess of the speed limit, in which case she had a reasonable expectation that it was safe to pull out.
Is that how Insurance co.s will see it?
It could be argued that if he had been travelling at 30mph, he could have stopped in about 30 feet give or take and the accident wouldn't have happened. I've luckily not had any incidents and this is her first in 20+ tears of driving, so have no idea what the proceedures are.
He claims he wasn't speeding
Fairly easy to ascertain from the length of the stripes. The others are right about blame but, insurance companies don't like paying out so it's worth fighting.
and is also now claiming whiplash.
I'm no medical expert but I don't believe this is possible from sudden deceleration forwards; you get whiplash when someone smashes in the back of you. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this claim might well work in your relative's favour.
They might go knock for knock if you can argue that the road was clear when she pulled out and the other driver was speeding. That's what happened to me. I was at a traffic light controlled junction, but the lights had failed. Waited 'til it was clear, pulled out, whacked in the rear corner so I was well out and had almost crossed. He didn't even slow down for the faulty traffic lights. New driver in his mum's car. Whatever they say, argue. The insurers will try to get out of it and the first offer will be rubbish.
he could have stopped in about 30 feet give or take
To be fair, the HC stopping distance (excluding thinking time) is 45ft from 30mph. You'd have to pull 1g to stop in 30ft - not something I think a standard car will manage even on a dry road.
The speed of the other driver does make a difference, but only if he was doing well in excess of the limit.
I'm no medical expert but I don't believe this is possible from sudden deceleration forwards
Should have stopped after the first 4 words.
exact same thing happened to my sister just after she passed her test. The insurance companies went 50-50 due to the excessive speed of the driver on the major road. i think he admitted this though.
Why pull out.?
What did the police say?
Why pull out.?
Probably don't want kids yet.
😆
😀
She pulled out,
they both believe insurance companies dont work at bank hloidays , they do,
she is looking for an excuse,
she pulled out, she is to to blame.
Could have been a cyckllist and he would have suffered an injury.
Also newtons law of motion, every body continues in its state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by some external force, the young lad , hitting her car, fits that law,
the thing about stopping distance doesn't really help, the driver on the major road should not have to stop or slow down because somebody pulls out just out of the safe stopping distance.
Should have stopped after the first 4 words.
I don't disagree; however, this is the Internet, so I'm damn well going to give you my opinion on things I know nothing about. Alright?
(-:
The only way that she'd be able to conclusively prove that the other driver was speeding was if the Police got involved so that they could measure the skid marks and do their own skid tests.
Although it's best practice to do this at the time of the RTC.
Whiplash claims are 'par the course' these days with RTC's unfortunately.
The way i read the situation is the young chap flashed her to pull out 😉
Speed does factor into it in theory. If you see a certain distance of empty road, then you see nothing is coming and you go. You are expecting people do be doing 30mph which means they'll take x seconds to be upon you after entering the visible stretch of road.
If they are doing say double the limit, you only have half as much time as you would expect and hence could be in trouble when you could have quite reasonably expected to be safe.
However that's all in theory (according to me and my experience) not law or insurance company practice, of course.
Like they say-she pulled out. As for the whiplash, perfectly possible from the sounds of the impact damage.
Its sad but thats what insurance is there for and we all run the risks as drivers of having a lapse of concentration or mis-judgement.
Hope that she gets over the shock of it and it all gets sorted quickly as thats one of the worst aspects-the delays etc.
When she pulled out the road was empty (or she didn't see him). My initial thoughts were he had been 'hidden' by the front window pillar, but if this was the case it would have been front end impact.
I'm not familiar with the road, so not sure if there are corners near the junction.
I also had concerns about the whiplash. She had no idea what was going on and the crash was a total surprise. She did clonk her head but is more worried that she doesn't have a car to get her kids to and from school. He knew it was coming, was slowing dramatically and most likely braced himself and [i]still[/i] hurt his neck?
I realise i'm not impartial in this, and she did unwittingly pull out, but I think this lad and family are trying to pull a fast one at her expense.
I sustained whiplash from a side impact so regardless of fault she should get herself checked out for injury as well, y'know, just incase.
[i]I'm not familiar with the road, so not sure if there are corners near the junction.[/i]
Do you know the location so that we can look at google maps and judge from our arm chairs.
Molgrips - while your argument has some merit it bothers me somewhat that you can't tell the difference between a car coming towards you at 30mph and one coming towards you at 60mph. Should you really be driving on public roads ??
Actually sorry that sounds more harsh than I meant, but generally people can tell, I certainly can, and it keeps me alive on the motorbike.
The other guy speeding or not doesn't really come into it. Sorry....
Of course the speed comes into it. Affects everything!
His speed has no bearing on the fault of the accident. She pulled out on him. Sorry, but that's the way the insurance company will look at it
Did the other vehicle leave skid marks and are they still at the scene?
If so, it might be worth taking a few pics of the road, the available view from the junction from her own and the other drivers perspective.
I'd also measure the skid marks if you can and also the distance of road that can be seen from the junction.
I think she'll end up taking full responsibilty at the end of the day as she has pulled into a carriageway, but it might be worth making the effort with the pics and measureents.
His speed has no bearing on the fault of the accident. She pulled out on him. Sorry, but that's the way the insurance company will look at it
See druid's post
...unless the guy was coming round a blind corner well in excess of the speed limit, in which case she had a reasonable expectation that it was safe to pull out.
These things aren't necessarily all black or white.
if he had been travelling at 30mph, he could have stopped in about 30 feet give or take
Well the official highway code stopping distance is 14m of braking (after 9m of thinking) at 30 mph - so you would expect about 45ft of skid marks. Modern brakes might stop you quicker - but I think you'd find it hard to convince the other insurer! Try this and it will support the logic that he wasn't speeding (or not significantly) - it doesn't take much damage to write off a modern car so the fact it is written off isn't really proof of residual speed.
[i]the thing about stopping distance doesn't really help, the driver on the major road should not have to stop or slow down because somebody pulls out just out of the safe stopping distance. [/i]
Eh, so would you just plough straight into something because you are in the 'right'?
Please tell me that you don't drive.
Used to work for a major insurance brokers dealing with rta insurance claims for clients such as Eddie Stobarts etc.
It was always a cheap shot for anyone to ever mention speed unless they were the police. If anyone mentioned it they were always rebuffed with a simple question.
Please send calibrated proof of speeding.
Unless it can be quantified by someone qualified to make such a judgement speed has absolutely no place in an insurance claim.
I have been sarcastic in the past and asked for the calibration certificate for the clients eye sight in the past due to solicitors arguing the point
i clearly saw it all the young lady only pulled out after the young male had stopped and passed her a note telling her clearly that he was going to stop all oncoming traffic so that she could safely enter the main road and then as she did that he deliberately rammed her.. i can even get a copy of the note if you think that would help or any of my 56 mates on the double decker that was passing would happily say thats what they saw as well
Ok, thanks to the detective powers of Mr Munro and google maps I got to look at the junction.
Don't know if this works but [url= http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=antrim+town&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=15.268214,46.538086&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Antrim,+United+Kingdom&ll=54.710838,-6.207039&spn=0.007277,0.022724&z=16&layer=c&cbll=54.710929,-6.207114&panoid=dKdLQ96CWgV4ReOI4Yrjxw&cbp=12,333.01,,0,21.31 ]here [/url]is a link.
Her brother took pics of the skidmarks, but as I said earlier the cars had been moved and debris/oil cleared by the family. No doubt the CSI could tell if the other car caused them, what speed he was doing and when he last had sex.
I just called her and explained the best she could hope for was a 50/50 and suggested she get herself looked at by a GP.
Thanks for the help/advice chaps.
Involved in a similar accident a couple of years ago, was worried that the truck driver that pulled across the road might claim that we had been speeding (we hadn't been) - police involved said if the truck driver didn't see us & pulled across infront of us how could he then say we were speeding?
allthepies, I read druids post. Fact is as a damage only accident the police will not be interested and like steve says the speed factor won't be accepted by the insurance
Molgrips - while your argument has some merit it bothers me somewhat that you can't tell the difference between a car coming towards you at 30mph and one coming towards you at 60mph. Should you really be driving on public roads ??
Of course you can tell if you stand there and watch an approaching car. However if you are not concentrating fully, and glance a car a long way off you might not immediately clock that it's speeding as by definition, you have to look at it for a period of time to gauge it's speed.
Over the years I've got good at this of course as I've gained experience, and it's also why you are supposed to check mirrors twice. I learned my less on on the A30 driving a minibus. A fairly curvy bit of DC, I overtook a lorry with just me and the lorry in the visible bit of road. Looked in my mirror to pull back IN (something that I suspect many people don't do) and started to move when a car that was NOT there first time I checked the mirror undertook me doing about 120mph.
It's a good reason to keep your own speed down - the faster you go the more OTHER people have to be on the ball, and relying on that is a fool's game I reckon.
Was she coming out of a driveway or out of the road with the large white house on the corner?
If it's the road junction, it [u]appears[/u] to be quite open with a good view.
She pulled out on an oncoming car...her fault. Next topic.
When she pulled out the road was empty
Did the other car look like this?
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You're a funny guy, Drac. I like you. That's why I'm going to kill you last.
[img] 
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The way i read the situation is the young chap flashed her
Sexual harassment then.
lol Euro.
<sigh>
Slightly ish off topic but always wondered how skid marks are measured if a car has abs? Do they still leave blatant black lines or is it just measured from the first big dab on the brakes when the wheels try to stop and the abs kicks in. There must be a good 50% of cars with abs on the roads nowadays.
They leave broken black lines afaik.
"if you are not concentrating fully" then you shouldn't be in charge of a two ton metal death machine.
Thats up there with moaning that you keep getting speeding tickets cos you can't read the speedo without your glasses on !!
The lassie pulled out without looking properly she needs to learn her lesson, be thankful she didn't kill somebody and go back to driving school.
wrightyson - Member
Slightly ish off topic but always wondered how skid marks are measured if a car has abs? Do they still leave blatant black lines or is it just measured from the first big dab on the brakes when the wheels try to stop and the abs kicks in. There must be a good 50% of cars with abs on the roads nowadays.
Even with ABS, vehicles will leave a skid mark.
They measure the skid mark and after a few sums, the vehicles speed is calculated.
A skid test is performed on the tarmac at the RTC location. The skid test is purely to determine how 'grippy' the tarmac is.
They don't compare the length of skid marks between the Police car and the other vehicle to calculate the speed.
aracer - MemberTo be fair, the HC stopping distance (excluding thinking time) is 45ft from 30mph. [b]You'd have to pull 1g to stop in 30ft - not something I think a standard car will manage even on a dry road.[/b]
The speed of the other driver does make a difference, but only if he was doing well in excess of the limit
Epic physics fail and no one has picked up on it. I experience an acceleration of 1G when I'm just sitting on the toilet...thank god!
It's not upto either driver to apportion blame or admit that it was their fault. That's the job of the insurance companies and the police. It is incredibly difficult to say who was to blame in this crash, but seeing as both were breaking the law then I'd be going for 50:50.
It is not the job of the police to apportion blame in normal rtc
I experience an acceleration of 1G when I'm just sitting on the toilet
Not in a horizontal direction you don't. Epic <whoosh>
seeing as both were breaking the law
How do you know that?
hels - Member
"if you are not concentrating fully" then you shouldn't be in charge of a two ton metal death machine.Thats up there with moaning that you keep getting speeding tickets cos you can't read the speedo without your glasses on !!
The [s]lassie pulled out without looking properly[/s] [u]boy was speeding[/u] [s]s[/s]he needs to learn h[u]is[/u][s]er[/s] lesson, be thankful [s]s[/s]he didn't kill somebody and go back to driving school
Just as valid?
aracer - Member
I experience an acceleration of 1G when I'm just sitting on the toiletNot in a horizontal direction you don't. Epic <whoosh>
Not even in a vertical one *double-whoosh*
Do you honestly think the cops are gonna be interested in coming to measure skid marks on a road where there has been a minor bump ?
I won't speak as to who's to blame, but I would suggest you remind your relative that in an RTA where someone has been injured (the lad's whiplash claim) the Police must be involved.
So get them involved, and get the insurance companies involved, and I'll bet the other party's bullying tactics stop and it gets sorted fairly.
It's a fairly poor visibility spot, so if the guy was doing >30 it might have been hard for the driver to spot, to be fair - the bends at either end of the straight would prevent speed assessment earlier. That said, if he was driving round there he'd struggle to get much more than about 50 without fairly good car control and some hefty risks (or driving on the absolute limit without a clue) and I'd expect her to still be looking as she pulled out and see him coming.
However
worries me more. If it was a complete surprise she's not exactly observant. For them to hit her rear after skidding for 40ft (wet or damp road, or dry?) and her not know anything about it suggests she was distracted in the car and not taking enough notice of the road. So who's to say which is the truth.She had no idea what was going on and the crash was a total surprise.
Skidding 40ft isn't hard on damp roads from 30(ish), I've done it and ended up in a ditch because of it. Remember [i]40ft is only about 2.5ish car lengths.[/i].
I suspect it'll go in his favour. Bear in mind that from his point of view this could be "I was driving along the road at 30 and some silly sod pulled out of their drive without looking, I slammed on but there was just no chance of me stopping in time, now she's blaming me and telling me I was speeding!".
Just because he's young and inexperienced doesn't mean he's automatically at fault, an idiot or deserving of this - be fair.
She'll be found at fault and will be liable. If you can prove he was speeding you might get a reduced settlement but you can't conclusively do this. Leave the insurance companies to sort it out.
The way i read the situation is the young chap flashed her to pull out
And that still wouldn't help her. Flashing doesn't actually mean 'come on' it means 'I'm here' so she'd still be at fault.
110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.
[url] http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070289 [/url]
Margin Walker - Member
<sigh>
Not the first motoring thread where you've done this. Can you expand on <sigh> at all?
Unmarked junction! Long shot but nothing to loose.
I experience an acceleration of 1G when I'm just sitting on the toiletNot in a horizontal direction you don't. Epic <whoosh>
Unless it's a toilet on a train.....or possibly in a plane on a conveyer belt.
Insurance companies are most interested in saving cash. Fighting claims can cost too much to entertain, particularly in odds such as these. Regardless of any allegation of speeding, if it costs less to take the simple view that she emerged into his path and is to blame, they will pay for his damage and bump up her premium.
The police won't measure skid marks and undertake calculations unless someone dies or is seriously injured. Too many bumps, too few crash investigators for that.
the allegations of speeding are largely worthless. Trying to argue that they were braking the law and so they should expect to be pulled out on is just nonsense.
Its like arguing that an illegally parked car shouldn't have been there when you crashed into it.
You drive according to the actual conditions, not what should be expected. ]
Sorry for what happened regardless, as its not a nice situation to be in.
bigyinn - Member
Trying to argue that they were braking the law and so they should expect to be pulled out on is just nonsense.
No one is arguing that though are they? It's being argued that the speeding driver might have avoided crashing if he'd not been speeding, i.e.
drive according to the actual conditions
It's being argued that the speeding driver might have avoided crashing if he'd not been speeding, i.e.
What speeding driver?
As for righting a car off, the only accident I've had happened at about 5 mph and the car I hit was written off because I hit the wheels. The fact that the car was written off in this case in no way supports the case of the other driver speeding.
The "speeding" driver the OP's sister didn't see?!