[Closed] Roadie Content: TT's and having "all the gear"

Perhaps a minute. Buy yourself a skinsuit and an aero helmet and spend some time optimising your position, those are some of the biggest gains to be had.

Position is the biggest difference to TT times. Maybe a cheap second hand TT?

Some decent road shoes and pedals will make a difference. Don't need to be mega expensive. The cheapest Shimano and a pair of say Specialized Comp will make a world of difference.

There was a good article (on road.cc IIRC) comparing std bike vs one with aero bars then wheels and probs a helmet.

The main thing was the aero bars, the helmet, wheels and bike all made about the same difference - about 1/3 of the bars IIRC.

Good times for a noob BTW, well done.

Does anybody know how to quantify what effect a uber aero & light bike plus "all the gear" would make to my times?

You already sold out when you fitted clip on bars to a road bike.

Its road bike or the full blown TT rig.

why bother with all that,
you'll be faster than others
others will be faster than you
so just enjoy it and spend the money on holidays and beer and pies.

[quote=dannybgoode ]Some decent road shoes and pedals will make a difference.

Some being quite close to bugger all.

Start with the clothes - just a tight fitting top and getting rid of the gloves (tests show that bare handed is a significant improvement) will make a lot more difference than the shoes.

Though it's worth mentioning again that the most important thing is position - with a standard road bike you can move the saddle forwards and lower the bars to improve that.

Position:
I'm working on that each week.

Skin Suite:
Er I weight 14 stone! enough said.

Road Specific Shoes & Pedals:
Why ? My MTB shoes are Carbon soles and SOOO stiff, and I don't get "Hot Spots" around the cleats even after 80+ miles. Is it all about "fitting in ?"

I was in a similar situation with basic road bike, mtb shoes etc. last year.

My fastest 25 miler time was around 1:09. One of the experienced TT riders reckoned I would benefit most from getting my position on the bike right and losing some weight. He reckoned that sorting that would see me get down to around 1:05 and then if I wanted any chance of dipping under 60 minutes I would need to be a lot fitter and have a proper TT bike.

I remember overtaking a rider who had all the gear but was looking down so his streamlined helmet was like an air-brake sticking up in the air...

I've gone back to just riding around my local trails this year, much more relaxing 🙂

'Al

Good times for a noob BTW, well done.

Cheers, I was happy with being under 30 for my 1st. getting to 25 was great... This week I want to get a 24: something .... but without spending too much money the equation for the correct number of bikes being N+1 is not washing to well with Mrs Adi66 at the moment!

So it's time to dig out a old "too small" jersey, and duck a little lower in the Tri Bars ! lol

Ditch the MTB shoes, get some proper road shoes & pedals, you'll get WAY more power down through them.

Ditch the baggy top - it might look cool on an MTB but it looks wrong on a road bike.

Ignore what everybody has told you and buy Dr Hutch's book Faster 😉

I've gone back to just riding around my local trails this year, much more relaxing

I LOVE the Sadism of "Pushing myself to the Limit" it REALLY appeals to my Psyche 😛

[quote=adi66 ]Skin Suite:
Er I weight 14 stone! enough said.

Yes, and?

[img] [/img]

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/that-portly-chap-in-the-lampre-kit-might-have-kin-in-fife

Are your teeth nice and straight? If not, a smooth gumshield is a must.

Stick with the kit you've got then you'll know for sure how much any improvement is due to training and increased fitness.

Don't forget shaving the legs.. gotta be worth minus 2 mins on a 10.

OP - I've been having similar ponderings to you. Never did a TT before moving to the area and the local club is very TT orientated (it's pan flat around here), I've tried a few on the road bike and enjoyed but the kit that they all use makes BOS suspension look affordable. One of the things I like about road bikes is that urge to spend big bucks on magical kit that will make me faster isn't there, as opposed to the MTB where I still get sucked in to suspension efficiency and the tyre speed and grip claims, TT is like MTB in that way - especially with the wheels.

Some of the club members are trying to get me hooked and I've been offered some good secondhand kit but I've come to the conclusion that the only person I'm kidding is myself as I won't be anywhere near the fastest. I'm going to suggest at the AGM that the those who ride on standard road bike with no aero helmet or tri bars should get there own section in the club TTs so at least we can compare to each other.

Having said all that those aero wheels and disks sound amazing!!!

It's always an unpopular suggestion, but have you considered training?

Riding a Zipp equipped, Scott Plasma!! lol

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/that-portly-chap-in-the-lampre-kit-might-have-kin-in-fife

Point taken on the tight clothes.

 

One of the things I like about road bikes is that urge to spend big bucks on magical kit that will make me faster isn't there,

😯

Not TT but road bike, on the same hill with roughly the same effort, kit (no pointy hat though) and position. Dead scientific like.....

max speed on a round tubed, shallow wheeled, spd pedaled bike with mtb shoes and 23mm tires- 33mph

max speed on an aero framed, 50mm wheeled, proper pedaled bike with stiff road shoes and 25mm tires- 42 mph

Having said all that those aero wheels and disks sound amazing!!!

Yeah, strangely I though about those wheels when I put the wheelie bins out this morning! lol

.... I'm only jealous, cos they look BAD ASS, and I'm seriously wanting.

Turn your seatpost the other way round; puts you over the front of the bike more, which isn't as comfortable, but is more efficient.

Cost: £0.00. 8)

Shoes will make very, very little difference - if anything, seeing as you've carbon soled mtb shoes, it'll purely be in aerodynamics/weight that the improvement would come. I went for the full set up this year for the first time and it almost felt like cheating. Helmet makes massive difference and wheels make massive difference, after that TT frame made a reasonable difference but only because it allowed a much better position thanks to the relatively shorter TT allowing tri-bar tuck to be set up optimally.

Don't move your saddle forward.

What a coincidence this thread is. I was thinking exactly the same after doing a 10 mile TT this morning. Obviously it wasn't an official TT (it was 5am this morning on the way to work) but a strava segment that someone has made up after doing the official meeting on a midweek evening. My bike was a bog standard sensa romagna, mtb pedals and shoes but unlike the op dressed in Lycra. Managed a time of 24:32 so although really happy with that I was wondering like the OP how faster I could of done.

Managed a time of 24:32 so although really happy with that I was wondering like the OP how faster I could of done.

Good Man 🙂

Have you shaved your forearms....

Get one of these bargains - only available in larger sizes now Kinda like a skinsuit but can use for road biking.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/castelli-sanremo-2-0-speed-suit/rp-prod94224

This article is quite good too: [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/how-aero-is-aero-19273/ ]How aero is aero?[/url]

So aero bars - helmet - bike - wheels

In order of descending usefulness, although their "normal" wheels were more aero than most folks'.

Completely get the desire to throw money at this but I'd suggest doing some more training, and more importantly, races. - Race yourself fitter can definitely work.

Position is key and whilst TT bars and aero frames DO make a big difference, I'd focus on tweaking your current set up before spending pennies.

After TT bars, pointy hats are probably the cheapest way to knock time off

Oh and get thee over to the [url= http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php? ]TT forum[/url] for more on the subject

For mph per £ ignore what type of shoes you have but make sure you have overshoes. Those and pointy hat are best value.

On a related note, do all TT bikes creak? I got overtaken by a guy on a Shiv last night, he was flying but by gosh his bike was noisy, it sounded bloody horrible

Position is the biggest difference to TT times

Specific fitness is the the biggest difference to TT times.

so I'd put in a few weeks of specific threshold training, 3 or 4 days a week, an hour a session, see what your times are like at the end of the season, then if you're still hooked look at buying a cheap second hand TT bike over the winter. there are some real bargains to be had, as the OCD Triathletes offload their year old kit for peanuts.

after that, its position, look at getting a flat back and try to move forward on the bike a bit, aero bars will obviously let you achieve that, then think about helmet, wheels, skinsuit etc.

I'm still on a road bike with aero bars. best time this year is 22.34 for a 10, 57.13 for a 25. taking the plunge this winter for a full on TT bike. It's addictive. also, a bit of weight loss with the training increases your speed more than anything else. I started the year at 13.75Stone, now I'm 11.75, and you can fit a skinsuit 🙂

(tests show that bare handed is a significant improvement)

When you say "significant"

What sort difference are you actually talking about ?

"Significant" to an Olympian, means "insignificant" to pretty much everybody else

Have you shaved your forearms....

Cyclist Mag this month reckons a mini mohican down the back of the limb will be best for aero gains!!

The MIT cycling team did some wind tunnel testing that suggested taking your mitts off gave the same advantage as an aero front wheel. Have a Google, article should still be out there somewhere.
Other people have already pointed out the most effective ways of getting faster, and they don't have to be costly. There are lots of people on expensive bikes with dreadful positions, sitting up in the wind like a sack of tatties.
I would like to put in a word for the humble safety pin. Make sure your number is pinned around the edges, not just attached at the corners and blowing out like a parachute on your back.

Was in a similar position a year ago. Did a few TTs on the road bike. Then got a TT bike and didn't go much faster initially. You'll probably find you can either have an aero position or powerful position but not both (I was down close to 20% on power.) You need to do a lot of specific work to adapt to be both powerful and aero (e.g. do all turbo work on the TT bike, which at first is very hard and demoralising.) You'll probably find your road bike position benefits along the way too. +1 for the Hutchinson book.

As far as times go, I think I did my first 3 TTs on the road bike, long 24s. Did about 4 on the TT bike and got down to short 22 (rubbish position and not much TT specific work - improvements I reckon were more about getting use to doing TTs and pacing than the bike, given how little power I was able to generate I think I'd have not been much slower on the road bike.) Not raced this year due to new baby coinciding with start of the season but reckon having done a lot more TT specific work and a much better position over the winter that when I race again I should be able to creep into the 20s on a good 10 course. As warton says, it really is specific fitness that counts.

For bike, I just picked up a cheap Planet X Stealth frame. An areojacket cover for my rear wheel. Some TT bars and saddle. Most of the rest came from my parts bin. Probably cost me about 500 quid. Though double that for helmet, skin suit, shoe covers, etc.

bjj.andy.w - Member
What a coincidence this thread is. I was thinking exactly the same after doing a 10 mile TT this morning. Obviously it wasn't an official TT (it was 5am this morning on the way to work) but a strava segment that someone has made up after doing the official meeting on a midweek evening. My bike was a bog standard sensa romagna, mtb pedals and shoes but unlike the op dressed in Lycra. Managed a time of 24:32 so although really happy with that I was wondering like the OP how faster I could of done.

Njee's article is quite an eye opener. Just shows how close to "competitive" you can get with just tri-bars!

I plan to TT next year - I've lost the hunger for racing, I feel like every race is just one closer to the inevitable BIG CRASH!

I've been pricing up the latest Dengfu carbon frame with 86mm carbon rims. Looks like I'll be able to build one up and cancel out the cost by selling some racing bikes/kit...

[img] [/img]

The other things with TTs is that although drafting isn't allowed if your lucky you can have a constant stream of lorries overtaking you on a dual carriageway which significantly ups your speed.

I do wonder about this sort of thing when people start quoting their times for 10s and 25s. It seems meaningless unless taken in the context of the course and conditions. There are some very fast courses out there that almost seem like cheating (e.g. a big downhill at the start and then finish just short of the climb back up.)

cheap stuff -

training (free)
aero bars + back-to-front seatpost
lycra top & shorts (or a skinsuit I guess)
teardrop hat
smooth shoes and/or shoe covers

badass wheels and s****y bike are a bit further down the cost/speed list IIRC

I was pretty happy to score a 27min with just aero bars, turning the seatpost round & wearing some lycra. Bit fitter then, natch.

I do wonder about this sort of thing when people start quoting their times for 10s and 25s.

The most reliable figures tend to come from "out-and-back" courses where the wind advantage is cancelled out. Alex Dowsett recently averaged 34.6153mph (!!!!) on an "out-and-back" course to smash the 10 mile record.

I mean seriously, lets stop to think about that for minute... 34.6mph for 10 frickin miles??? ON THE FLAT????? Unbe-frickin-lievable!

I mean seriously, lets stop to think about that for minute... 34.6mph for 10 frickin miles??? ON THE FLAT????? Unbe-frickin-lievable!

Yup, pedal hard downhill, glance down and see 35mph, then imagine being able to do that for 10 miles on the flat. Is bloody impressive.

- Train (intervals and more specific work than just riding)
- Tribars set low - eg reduce drag from your body - though for this to work, you'll need to work on flexibility/core strength and just getting used to the position. Some stems will allow for a much lower front end than you probably have right now.
- shoes will make sweet fa difference by the sounds of your current ones. Shoe covers are cheap so probably worthwhile (and you'll look pro 🙂 )
- tight kit - creases, etc cause a lot of drag. Long sleeved is a good way to avoid shaving arms 🙂
- Aero helmet - maybe but you'll note that a lot of them now are less aero looking as they've found that most people can't hold the right position permanently and drop their head lots which means a big pointy air brake sticking up in the air. You can get some benefit just by taping over the vents on your normal helmet (but it'll be hot!)
- Read up on aero - lots of good links already provided. Lots of people blindly spend money on things that look aero but either aren't or offer very little real benefit.
- to that point, you can sometimes get cheap, old disc wheels on ebay that'll only take a screw on cassette or other similarly outdated kit but most TTs don't need lots of gear range so that may well be fine.

- Have fun. Don't turn into a miserable tester!

Other cheap stuff... get someone to take some photos of you riding your bike. Seeing some photos of me on the first few club TTs, well there were some pretty obvious gains to be made 😳 For example, just hunching shoulders, dropping chest and getting my head inline with my shoulders. Makes quite a difference on the road or TT bike and costs nothing.

- Have fun. Don't turn into a miserable tester!

This is inevitable once all the easy early gains are achieved 🙂

- Have fun. Don't turn into a miserable tester!

is there any other sort?

I have met one or two that weren't. They mtb as well though 😉

New course for our club 10TT last night,there was not a miserable tester in sight.
Beautiful evening and they were buzzing about riding a new course .
Most were flying and got some really good results.

OP
You are doing great for a beginner ,just enjoy it .
The tough time comes when you reach a plateau and it's seconds rather than minutes that you are chipping away. 🙂

The tough time comes when you reach a plateau and it's seconds rather than minutes that you are chipping away.

Reallly tough time comes when you see your times regressing. That does make for a miserable tester.

footflaps

- Have fun. Don't turn into a miserable tester!

is there any other sort?

How very dare you 😛

Mind you, I'm helping out on the National 24 hour TT this weekend and there WILL be some tired, miserable and emotional peeps on that.

Whilst on the subject, whilst Dowsett's bonker's 10 time is [i]seriously[/i] impressive, Wilko's 24 hour record is just mental: - 541.214 miles 😯

Reallly tough time comes when you see your times regressing. That does make for a miserable tester.

That's just getting older 😉

Wot nemesis said ^

Also, if you get a race number, tape the edges so it doesn't act like a sail.
An odd one, but if you take a bottle, put the cage on the seat tube, not the down tube - it deflects air round the rear wheel apparently. Saying that, you shouldn't have time for a drink on a 10.

After a few goes, you will probably get a better idea of pacing. Again, I'm not sure there's time for that on a 10, just empty the tanks and hope the clock is kind to you.

I really like the combination of thinking about being faster and going out and doing it. As others have said there's some impressive times there, and they are moving in the right direction. Just enjoy yourself!

Whilst on the subject, whilst Dowsett's bonker's 10 time is seriously impressive, Wilko's 24 hour record is just mental: - 541.214 miles

Yep. A friend of mine won the 24 a few years ago and did over 500 miles. When I saw that in his email, I thought it was a typo - in my head without actually doing any maths, I was thinking 300 or so miles sounded like a good number of miles to do in a day. On realising that 500+ was actually what he did, I think I had to sit down for a while, tired just thinking about it...

Again, I'm not sure there's time for that on a 10

There's tonnes of time for that - coming from a sport where an 8 minute race was long, a 10 has plenty of scope for pacing. I'd suggest aiming fractionally below what you think you can average for the overall distance for the first half and then up the pace at half way - that way you're carrying a bit less lactic for longer and it's much more positive mentally if you get to half way and can take the pace up rather than struggling to turn the gear and slowing down. Or if you've paced it wrong, at least you shouldn't completely blow up. Of course, that will depend a bit on the course, conditions, etc.

My MTB shoes are Carbon soles and SOOO stiff

Nothing like as stiff as road shoes though.

I'm doing a TT next weekend, on a shoestring. So:

- clip-on bars, check
- low front end, check
- not too low so I can't get power down - check
- standard chainset - check
- no gloves - check
- no bottle - check
- arm warmers - check
- presumably thin tights too - check
- socks over my road shoes...? Or shoud I buy some real covers?

Thinking it's not worth spending a penny on it tbh.

I mean seriously, lets stop to think about that for minute... 34.6mph for 10 frickin miles??? ON THE FLAT????? Unbe-frickin-lievable!

I average 25 on "my" 10 course (out and back with hills & 3 traffic islands), so can't imagine going a full 10 mph faster for the distance ! Bonkers and seriously impressive.

OCD Triathletes offload their year old kit for peanuts.

I'm still on a road bike with aero bars. best time this year is 22.34 for a 10, 57.13 for a 25.

Aero Helmet is on its way in the post.

I think tomorrow night 10 will be in tighter fitting clothing, revised "more aero / tidy cable routings" and a lower stem height by 10mm.

@nemesis

Quite a few of the fast boys can do 300 miles in 12 hours!

Back in 2011 we reckoned that it was going to take some doing to get over 480+ miles on the roller coaster tour of Sussex that was the course.

The fact that Andy smashed his previous record was unbelievable. - John Warnock was second with an fantastic 517 but no one remembers that.

Funnily enough, I did a 10 mile TT this morning. Dropped 3 minutes compared to my time last week 8) I'm not significantly fitter, so it must be down to a change of position.

Last week was on standard roadie drops, this week on a proper aerobar setup. Frame, wheels, helmet, etc all unchanged!

socks over my road shoes...? Or should I buy some real covers?

I was wondering that too...

Thing is, unless your course is hilly or technical, your bike probably isn't fundamentally any slower in a TT than a more expensive road bike unless it's one of those semi-aero ones.

John Warnock was second with an fantastic 517 but no one remembers that.

I do. That's my mate 🙂 He's a machine.

I used to row with him...

Well a LOT of the guys where on Cervelo's or Giant Trinitys, and the guy that posted the fastest time was on a Boardman TT bike with HED wheels.

I was comparing your bike to other road bikes, not TT bikes.

nemesis

John Warnock was second with an fantastic 517 but no one remembers that.

I do. That's my mate He's a machine.

I used to row with him...

8) 8)

Here he is on the 2011 night circuit around 2.30AM IIRC - don't have access to my photos atm

[img] [/img]

He does have an advantage on 24s - terminators don't need sleep...

bjj.andy.w - Member
What a coincidence this thread is. I was thinking exactly the same after doing a 10 mile TT this morning. Obviously it wasn't an official TT (it was 5am this morning on the way to work) but a strava segment that someone has made up after doing the official meeting on a midweek evening. My bike was a bog standard sensa romagna, mtb pedals and shoes but unlike the op dressed in Lycra. Managed a time of 24:32 so although really happy with that I was wondering like the OP how faster I could of done.

How does that work on a commute? Or was it a one way TT?
The other things with TTs is that although drafting isn't allowed if your lucky you can have a constant stream of lorries overtaking you on a dual carriageway which significantly ups your speed.

SamB - Member

Funnily enough, I did a 10 mile TT this morning. Dropped 3 minutes compared to my time last week I'm not significantly fitter, so it must be down to a change of position.

No way is 3m down to position alone. There are loads of other factors.

Ok, it was more like 2m50. And I might have spent a little less time waiting at red lights. But I'm pretty sure my HRM was down, and the bike was identically set up except for bars (lower) and *more* bottle cage crap hanging off than last time.
I suppose it's possible I was having a "good day", but that aero article linked earlier reckoned 2m for drops --> aero bars, and another minute for a decent tuck on top of that...

And I might have spent a little less time waiting at red lights.

😆

/the older you are the better you were back then mode:

I went faster on a seventies tourer with the mudguards removed, a woolen jersey and unshaved legs (though there wasn't much hair on my legs at that age).

I shaved about 1m30 off over 2 years on a standard road bike.

Mostly fitness, some positional changes, some pacing, some luck with the weather.

Matters what course as well. My PB is 23:01 on my road bike with no mods but the course is relatively fast with the record being a short 19min. I'll never be the fastest so I just use it as a way to judge fitness improvements.

It is more about the rider than anything else. Get used to putting yourself through the TT effort a few more times and you'll get quicker.

[quote=kudos ]Alex Dowsett recently averaged 34.6153mph (!!!!) on an "out-and-back" course to smash the 10 mile record.
I mean seriously, lets stop to think about that for minute... 34.6mph for 10 frickin miles??? ON THE FLAT????? Unbe-frickin-lievable!

CB did a tad over 35mph for, um, a tad over 35 miles ON THE FLAT

Cheers all.

I've just re-jiggled the set up on the bike.

* lowered the bars - as low as it'd go
* saddle 5mm higher, moved forward on the rails, & tilted down slightly
* cables re-routed to be a bit more "aero" - a cleaner cockpit you may say.
* removed one bottle cage
* cleaned and polished it all.
* taped over all of the vents - bar one, to be a bit more aero 😕
* tighter clothing sorted & roadie gloves.

Lets see how tomorrow night goes, I'll report back should anyone be interested. Lol

CB did a tad over 35mph for, um, a tad over 35 miles ON THE FLAT

Anyone can do 35 on a track 😉

You may find [url= http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?act=idx ]this[/url] useful..

You may find this useful..

Could spend days mining that forum. Also the [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Time-Trialling-Fly-Through-Pain-Barrier-ebook/dp/B009YL5JVG/ ]Andy Topham [/url]book is a good place to start. [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faster-Obsession-Science-Fastest-Cyclists-ebook/dp/B00IUMCCUG ]Faster[/url] is good too, much less prescriptive but loads of stuff to think about.