Is there any such thing as a road legal e scooter that can also be taken on a ScotRail train?
My wife is starting a new job which involves a train commute. 15 min walk to and from station at each end of the journey. In my mind, this would therefore be 3 min scoot. My wife is not, and will not become, a cyclist so all suggestions of Brompton or station bikes at each end have been firmly rejected. E scooter might be option but I’m not clear on legality and I think ScotRail have banned them from trains.
Does STW have knowledge to share?
Nope, the only legal ones are the hire ones, until the government changes the law they are classed as motor vehicles and need insurance. which you can't get as they are illegal.
Should have been dealt with ages ago as they are a great short distance tool
They're not road-legal unless they're one of the hire ones (Lime, Dott etc) and most train companies have banned them from stations and on board the trains.
Total pain, Government have just kicked the can down the road on this for the last 5 years. Useless.
Is it the pedalling she doesn't like?
Investigate these.... L1e category 250W Low Powered Moped.
Mrs Zip demands that the seat is really low so that she can put 2 feet down. This means the seat is too low for pedalling.
One of these bikes would be ideal to get us to the beach once we move.
Could you sell the walks as a fitness opportunity?
I used to walk the same sort of distance for years, and it was a great way to get some exercise at the same time as getting to work, rather than it just being a commute.
Walking is really good for you. It chills you out, destresses, tones your body....you can even put your headphones on.
15 min walk to and from station at each end of the journey. In my mind, this would therefore be 3 min scoot
Split the difference and suggest a 9 min run?
Just get rid of the e and get a kick scooter.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/adult-scooter-r500-blue/313020/c98m8575724
15 min walk to and from station at each end of the journey. In my mind, this would therefore be 3 min scoot
Roller blades? 🤣
could she just wear a hoody?
Roller blades
Quads are where it's at these days, grandad
She already works there a couple of days a week and has done for years, the new job is just shifting to being there full time. She’s quite happy with the walk at the moment but as she works long hours it really adds up when there every day. Destiny will end up being a short (2 min) drive from home to station then doing the other end on foot
it’s a shame the government are seeing e scooters as a problem rather than as a genuine solution to cutting down on short car journeys
it’s a shame the government are seeing e scooters as a problem
They are a problem, they are dangerous, a fire risk and the riders in london are a major pita for cyclists.
they are dangerous, a fire risk and the riders in london are a major pita for cyclists.
Because they, and the e-scooters themselves, have effectively been criminalised.
You can legitimately and legally buy e-scooters with a fairly pathetic disclaimer on the seller's website that they can only be used on private land with permission. Yeah right.
So there's an almost unlimited supply of "unlicensed" vehicles out there supplied from all manner of legit and shady sources. No checks. No real legitimate option for service or repair. Easy to hack (as in, disable the speed sensor).
Enforcement is near zero other than a few high profile "crackdowns".
And yet other countries don't really have this problem. They got ahead of the game, legalised them and created a proper regulatory framework around them. So dodgy sellers can be prosecuted, the owners are not riding them like they stole them because they are actually legal and everyone (mostly) behaves.
I was in Málaga a few weeks ago, loads of people on them. Mostly wearing helmets and hi-vis. All ridden very sensibly, almost all stopped at lights and pedestrian crossings. Quite happily sharing cycle lanes with cyclists. None of them on the pavement.
It's amazing, if you actually create decent infrastructure and have some sensible rules and regulations, people will (mostly) behave like adults. If you keep just banning things and having "crackdowns", people get pissed off and behave like dickheads.
They're absolutely ideal for first / last mile journeys, short urban hops, the school run etc. They're fun. I've got one, it's an absolute hoot to ride. But I can't ride it legally.
If you keep just banning things and having "crackdowns", people get pissed off and behave like dickheads.
Sadly I’ve found that people usually behave like dickheads because, at heart, they are a dickhead.
In london they’re not riding like a tool because they’ve been criminalised by the system but because they are selfish tools. They want a deristricted scooter or e-bike because they don’t care about other road or pavement users nd what they want is more important not because there’s insufficient infrastructure.
And this is quite interesting on the injuries to the riders of e-scooters
What you appear to be looking for is a foldable e-bike.
Lotta money to save a 15min walk though 🤣
And yet other countries don't really have this problem.
I have used these legal scooters in aus and NZ and the issues are exactly the same as in the UK.
They are a problem, they are dangerous, a fire risk and the riders in london are a major pita for cyclists.
You could say exactly the same about ebikes.
There are dicks riding ebikes.
There are cheap DIY ebikes that are a fire risk.
There are plenty of non-dicks riding legal ebikes.
Legal escooters are well overdue. I'd rather be sharing the roads with 10% more scooters and 10% less cars at the end of the day
To the OP, how about a manual scooter. Still fairly quick on the flat, I imagine the appeal would wear off if both sides are hilly though...
New legislation apparently coming this year but I've only seen vague news snippets. Anyone know any details?
They sell e scooters in high street shops like Curry’s and Halfords.
So why would you regard them as illegal if you can buy a scooter so easily?
People can be dick when walking and running so why would they be different on wheels?
I was chatting to a narrow boat resident on the canal and he said he had witnessed his first bout of jogger rage.
You could say exactly the same about ebikes.
There are dicks riding ebikes.
There are cheap DIY ebikes that are a fire risk.
There are plenty of non-dicks riding legal ebikes.
Legal escooters are well overdue. I'd rather be sharing the roads with 10% more scooters and 10% less cars at the end of the day
You could say exactly the same about elephants
There are dicks riding elephants
There are elephants that are a risk.
There are plenty of non-dicks riding legal elephants
Elephants are well overdue. I'd rather be sharing the roads with 10% more elephants and 10% less cars at the end of the day
Elephants are well overdue. I'd rather be sharing the roads with 10% more elephants and 10% less cars at the end of the day
I take it you are not aware of stampedes then.
New legislation apparently coming this year but I've only seen vague news snippets. Anyone know any details?
It's part of a new category called LZEV.
Low-speed Zero Emission Vehicle.
It's intended to cover e-scooters, delivery robots, hoverboards etc. Long overdue although the Tories were largely to blame for that, they were so busy changing PM every few months that very little parliamentary business ever got done.
So why would you regard them as illegal if you can buy a scooter so easily?
Kinda like knives (also freely available in shops) - it's how you use them.
Last July we were queueing [engine off] to get out of our campsite at Le Mans. Guy rides past on his e-scooter, slips and the scooter kicks up and slams into the nearside front wing of my mates Maserati causing scratching and a big dent. 😬
Luckily the guy was German and actually DID have insurance and the repair costs were all covered - but how many people would actually get insurance riding around town? Very very few I bet and this is an issue.
They sell e scooters in high street shops like Curry’s and Halfords.
So why would you regard them as illegal if you can buy a scooter so easily?
You can buy one but only for use on private land. But stupid to sell them really as what % of buying them for use on private land, 1 or 2% ?
And it is not about regarding them as illegal, they are illegal. That could be changed of course and I think it should be changed then I could get one of these --> https://anticbikes.com/ (although the 35mph top speed would have to be restricted)
Mostly seem to be cutting walking rather than cutting car journeys from what I've seen. So not really helping in terms of environmental benefit..
Not for me, I would quite happily use mine to do the last few miles to work (limited parking in my official site), instead ai have to try and get parking onsite. Otherwise it would be a 3 mile walk and I'm not doing that on top of driving. If it means people can park on the outskirts of towns and cities and use scooters to get into the middle it will reduce congestion and pollution.
But oh no the last bunch of idiots had to play change the pm instead of legislating when they planned to
Getting back to the original question. I'm not sure if it's been covered already, but there is still a ban on all e-scooters in stations and on trains in Scotland.
It's part of a new category called LZEV.
Low-speed Zero Emission Vehicle.
It’s been a long time coming. Although, as we know from experience of EPAC use the big sticking point is that once LZEV are legal derestricted vehicles will be everywhere. That’s the toughest part of the legislation and enforcement to get right.
None of this helps the OP though, as leaving a private one at a train station, or taking it on a train, is always going to be resisted due to the fire risk and lack of confidence in them being kept up to standard safety wise.
They sell e scooters in high street shops like Curry’s and Halfords.
So why would you regard them as illegal if you can buy a scooter so easily?
Because they're not legal to ride on roads (or pavements) without lights or insurance and all the rest. You can buy ride-on lawnmowers too but you can't ride them down the high street.
My wife has used the legal hire scooters to get into work occasionally. But generally she does the 45minute walk. I'm about to start a new job. 18miles so too far to ride regularly. Train (metro) might be an option but it would involve 45 minutes of walking so likely going to take too long except in emergencies. I'd consider a scooter. Might get a second hand Brompton if I think I can make it work. I've always fancied one for the collection and I'd have a space if I sold my current commuter bike.
I hope they legalise them soon, I think they would be ideal for mixed mode transport. I think the uptake would be higher than bikes as they are smaller and people wouldn't think they'd need to get changed/have a shower at work. Even making it so you need a provisional licence (like the Newcastle hire ones) would give people more options.
As a theoretical question, is there any reason a powered scooter cannot be made which complies with the requirements for being a motorbike? Is there a minimum wheel size, a requirement for a saddle etc? Obviously there would need to be brakes, lights etc. And a friendly insurance company.
The problem with electric scooters is they move fast and can be quite dangerous on pavements with pedestrians in the same way a bike is, they're also dangerous on the roads, mainly to the rider, because they have small wheels and they're not very visible even compared to a bike.
As a theoretical question, is there any reason a powered scooter cannot be made which complies with the requirements for being a motorbike? Is there a minimum wheel size, a requirement for a saddle etc? Obviously there would need to be brakes, lights etc. And a friendly insurance company.
they would need a lot of work to make them legal and then would require a motorcycle licence
ihave seen road legal mini motos so it is possible but its easier todo as a one off rather than making a full legal production run
i am in favour of escooters but it needs tobe a part of an overall rejig of urban transport including much greater restrictions on csrs as has been done in many cities worldwide
As a theoretical question, is there any reason a powered scooter cannot be made which complies with the requirements for being a motorbike? Is there a minimum wheel size, a requirement for a saddle etc? Obviously there would need to be brakes, lights etc. And a friendly insurance company.
I think it would be theoretically possible but add so much cost (and perhaps weight, portability issues etc) that the product would be harder to sell to a smaller market - people who have a moped/scooter class on their driving licence and where necessary a CBT. The owner would then have ongoing insurance and tax issues to pay plus need to wear a full motorcycle helmet. If you are doing all that there are little electric moped/scooters which might fulfil all your needs already.
it’s a shame the government are seeing e scooters as a problem
They are a problem, they are dangerous, a fire risk and the riders in london are a major pita for cyclists.
I think there’s a sample bias involved though - currently the only people using their own e-scooter are people who are willing to happily ignore the law. I’ve not cycled in London since they’ve been around but I wonder what makes the a PITA?
I’m not sure the fire risk isn’t overstated, but if it is real then when legalising them you could easily introduce standards to mitigate risk controlling charging design, battery casing, removable batteries etc. but I don’t think Lime etc have problems with theirs exploding so it’s probably a quality or user issue.
if visibility is an issue insist on flashing lights when you legalise them, and or high visibility and even helmets. Easy to define, easy to spot people ignoring it and enforce. You could even insist on some form of ID plate “reg no” although I am sure many cyclists would be concerned that it’s a slippery slope and these things would be coming their way.
I don’t think it would be unreasonable to have an e safety test on all electrically powered scooters, e bikes and mobility scooters.
This could included compliance with speed restrictions.
a fire risk
Which boils down to the fact that the people buying them use some no-name cheap-ass Chinese charger that’s likely to spontaneously combust as soon as you turn your back on it, the same with mobile phones; it’s more often than not a dubious cheap charger bought from a market stall or eBay that causes most fire issues.
Legitimising e-scooters so that owners have proper reliable chargers that pass safety standards would avoid the risk.
I always point a fan at my e-scooter charger and avoid doing a charge up on carpet.The charger does get hot Otherwise.
"ScotRail have banned them from trains. "
almost certainly.
Considered a non powered scooter? You can get "proper" ones, as aposed to just Toys R Us ones with flashing wheels. They do make a lot of sense for short trips, cause the fold down to a shoulder sling size.
Wouldnt catch me dead on one mind. I dont think i could survive that degree of loss of credebility.
Legitimising e-scooters so that owners have proper reliable chargers that pass safety standards would avoid the risk.
Cool, I look forward to seeing the evidence that legislation and safety regimes being imposed, but obviously never backed up with any actual enforcement, will persuade people from buying cheap chinese crap that does the job at a fraction of the cost.
Chinese charger that’s likely to spontaneously combust as soon as you turn your back on it, the same with mobile phones;
You do realise there’s already UK safety standards imposed on phone chargers, so by your own statement you are undermining the proposition that imposing safety standards for e scooters will make any difference.
the big sticking point is that once LZEV are legal derestricted vehicles will be everywhere.
They already are everywhere, certainly in cities maybe not smaller towns and villages so much. Like a lot of things there's insufficient capacity for the police to do much about it apart from the occasional well publicised, short term crackdown.
Legitimising e-scooters so that owners have proper reliable chargers that pass safety standards would avoid the risk.
Cool, I look forward to seeing the evidence that legislation and safety regimes being imposed, but obviously never backed up with any actual enforcement, will persuade people from buying cheap chinese crap that does the job at a fraction of the cost.
Chinese charger that’s likely to spontaneously combust as soon as you turn your back on it, the same with mobile phones;
You do realise there’s already UK safety standards imposed on phone chargers, so by your own statement you are undermining the proposition that imposing safety standards for e scooters will make any difference.
It would be easy enough to insist as part of any type approval that the charger is actually part of the scooter/battery and that any external component which might be "inadvertently" swapped out, is simply a power supply to the charger. Any such charger being able to cope with the range of abuses that a shitty power supply might provide. This sort of risk management approach is already used in many safety critical industries, probably including automotive. We don't have a plethora of grey import cars in the UK which don't conform to type approval - so its clearly possible.
Phone charging related fires are pretty low despite being a free for all. The issue with scooters is not so much that they might have a fire (any electrical appliance might have a fire, as might any other power source) but that people will be somewhat wreckless about where they charge the scooter - in the detached garage of your 4 bed house with a linked smoke detector, no issue; in the hall of your flat with only one route in/out, perhaps not a great idea. There are design approaches that could make the latter less likely - e.g. removable batteries that cannot be charged when installed on the scooter.
Escooters are way less dangerous than those e delivery bikes that go around at 30mph. That are allegedly pedal assist (yeah right)
One of them went past me like I was standing still on my bike.
Here's Scotrail's info on it - https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/our-rules-travel/e-scooters#:~:text=Like%20many%20other%20train%20operators%2C,from%20Thursday%2C%201%20June%202023. - there's a sign showing what they will and won't carry at the entrance at Falkirk High.
Only lithium-ion powered micro devices. Swap out the batter for a lead-acid one? 🙂
Phone charging related fires are pretty low despite being a free for all
Mostly I suspect due to being lower power traditionally - I do wonder about the increased risk with modern high power chargers. It's not so much the charger itself as the cable - I've seen pics of someones bed that had started to catch fire with an apple laptop charger - it was a badly frayed cable that was actually the issue. I've had a normally sensible friend who was using a phone cable that had a bare conductor showing at my house that I had to take off him and bin.
I reckon a lot of the issues with e-scooters and Chinese e bikes are unsuitable power connectors (simple barrel connections) and no cable anchoring. All fine when new, no so much when it's been tripped over and trodden on in a hallway
It would be easy enough to insist as part of any type approval that the charger is actually part of the scooter/battery and that any external component which might be "inadvertently" swapped out, is simply a power supply to the charger
The issue with this being that people who want a cheap e-scooter, or indeed most electric devices, don’t really give a toss about type approval, they’re still going to buy whatever is cheap. The comparison between the importation of container loads of basically disposable crap and the odd importation of a grey market vehicle is pretty tenuous at best. Scooters don’t go through registration requiring individual type approval nor are they ever likely too.
The issue with scooters is not so much that they might have a fire (any electrical appliance might have a fire, as might any other power source) but that people will be somewhat wreckless about where they charge the scooter
I was under the impression that the problem is when the batteries ignite they burn spectacularly and are very hard to put out.
It would be easy enough to insist as part of any type approval that the charger is actually part of the scooter/battery and that any external component which might be "inadvertently" swapped out, is simply a power supply to the charger
The issue with this being that people who want a cheap e-scooter, or indeed most electric devices, don’t really give a toss about type approval, they’re still going to buy whatever is cheap. The comparison between the importation of container loads of basically disposable crap and the odd importation of a grey market vehicle is pretty tenuous at best. Scooters don’t go through registration requiring individual type approval nor are they ever likely too.
theres absolutely no reason if you legalise them that you wouldn't require type approval and actively enforce importation/sale against non approved units. Some would slip though but in less time than these have already been on the market you'd have 98+% complaince if the govrnment, trading standards and road police wanted it.
The issue with scooters is not so much that they might have a fire (any electrical appliance might have a fire, as might any other power source) but that people will be somewhat wreckless about where they charge the scooter
I was under the impression that the problem is when the batteries ignite they burn spectacularly and are very hard to put out.
Yes - but if that's in an outbuilding (preferably with a way to alert the owners to call the fire brigade) its a lot safer than blocking your only exit route. I'm pretty sure that good charging circuits (which e.g. monitor the cell temp) can significantly reduce the risk, and that casing designs can help get the excess heat away without it igniting anything else first. By their nature its very tempting/convenient to stick these just inside the door. If the battery had to be removed to charge it perhaps "we" would change them somewhere more sensible. But the problem is not unique to escooters - ebikes have the same risks, probably half the users of this forum have an ebike and its actually quite rare for them to burst into flames. IMO its not a good reason to prevent people using them on the roads.
ebikes have the same risks, probably half the users of this forum have an ebike and its actually quite rare for them to burst into flames.
I’d go further than that. There was an industry/journalist who looked into this and (as I remember it) couldn’t find any evidence that there had ever been a fire involving a traditional bike company/big motor supplier bike. They were all either DIY conversions or similarly sketchy Chinese bikes.
well made chargers. Batteries with protective circuits. Fit-for-purpose connectors (though the lack of cable anchoring in the mk1 Orbea rise cable was not great).
edit. Not quite as clear cut as I made out but here
Some would slip though but in less time than these have already been on the market you'd have 98+% complaince if the govrnment, trading standards and road police wanted it.
Sorry is there some evidence for that? Given, say, the amount of cars running around without MOTs or insurance, the weak state of trading standards and roads policing after years of austerity, the amount of already patently illegal e bikes on the road and the inability to restrict / prohibit the import of these dodgy scooter I find the idea of rigorous compliance to be in the just made up school of statements.
Some would slip though but in less time than these have already been on the market you'd have 98+% complaince if the govrnment, trading standards and road police wanted it.
Sorry is there some evidence for that? Given, say, the amount of cars running around without MOTs or insurance, the weak state of trading standards and roads policing after years of austerity, the amount of already patently illegal e bikes on the road and the inability to restrict / prohibit the import of these dodgy scooter I find the idea of rigorous compliance to be in the just made up school of statements.
IF... Compliance is about enforcement as well as brands doing the right thing.
There is a demand for urban transport that does not cost £1000s a year or need huge amounts of storage space and it's being fulfilled. E-scooters are a great product that can be made to low quality levels like anything, but enforcement is needed to support the regulations available. The compliance levels in main brand name shop-bought e-bikes is high, no reason to think e-scooters couldn't be the same. The problem is how e-bikes and scooters are easily bought off the shelf and imported by D2C brands who pop up and are gone again soon after.
Buyer beware, and imo the lowest level product available should not be the limiting factor for the whole category.
She should keep the short walks as the brief exercise will help counter the long hours.
And with walks that short the time folding up/parking/whatever with anything like a scooter/bike and then working out where to put it on the train is a significant portion of the commute, so how worth it is is debateable.
Plus working out where to put it where it is not going to hack off other commuters, or dealing with dissapproving looks from inconvenienced commuters are all downsides.
I used a folding bike for years, downsizing it over the years as the trains got more crowded, and then I gave up and just bougt a fixie with solid tyres to get to the station from the house.
but virtually all cars were compliant at the point of original sale/import. MIB data suggest that at any one time <1% of UK vehicles are uninsured (300K / 33M), and there are >75K prosecutions/fixed penalties issued each year. MOT data is harder to interpret as its often misleadingly reported on number of vehicles MOT'd late, but no regard for if it was actually used. Gut feel is it will be less than the insurance because new and very old vehicles are exempt. That is consistent with <20K penalties a year issued. There are too many of both - but the vast majority of vehicles actually being driven on the roads do actually have valid paperwork.Some would slip though but in less time than these have already been on the market you'd have 98+% complaince if the govrnment, trading standards and road police wanted it.
Sorry is there some evidence for that? Given, say, the amount of cars running around without MOTs or insurance,
the weak state of trading standards and roads policing after years of austerity, the amount of already patently illegal e bikes on the road and the inability to restrict / prohibit the import of these dodgy scooter I find the idea of rigorous compliance to be in the just made up school of statements.
But thats the loophole goverment could close if it wished. Its currenly illegal to import/sell a boat which doesn't comply with the relevant regulations but not illegal to import/sell an e-scooter. Instead of pursuing users* one at a time you can pursue suppliers and have a much bigger impact. So I stand by what I said, its not a lost cause, if Gov, Police, and TS want to deal with it they can, this is not a lost cause.
*many of those users who are going to be children and thus somewhat limited in how you penalise them.
But thats the loophole goverment could close if it wished. Its currenly illegal to import/sell a boat which doesn't comply with the relevant regulations but not illegal to import/sell an e-scooter.
Interesting loophole. I hadn't realised there were product classes where there was a responsibility on the individual importer as well as on commercial importer-sellers.
but virtually all cars were compliant at the point of original sale/import. MIB data suggest that at any one time <1% of UK vehicles are uninsured (300K / 33M), and there are >75K prosecutions/fixed penalties issued each year. MOT data is harder to interpret as its often misleadingly reported on number of vehicles MOT'd late, but no regard for if it was actually used. Gut feel is it will be less than the insurance because new and very old vehicles are exempt. That is consistent with <20K penalties a year issued. There are too many of both - but the vast majority of vehicles actually being driven on the roads do actually have valid paperwork.Some would slip though but in less time than these have already been on the market you'd have 98+% complaince if the govrnment, trading standards and road police wanted it.
Sorry is there some evidence for that? Given, say, the amount of cars running around without MOTs or insurance,
the weak state of trading standards and roads policing after years of austerity, the amount of already patently illegal e bikes on the road and the inability to restrict / prohibit the import of these dodgy scooter I find the idea of rigorous compliance to be in the just made up school of statements.But thats the loophole goverment could close if it wished. Its currenly illegal to import/sell a boat which doesn't comply with the relevant regulations but not illegal to import/sell an e-scooter. Instead of pursuing users* one at a time you can pursue suppliers and have a much bigger impact. So I stand by what I said, its not a lost cause, if Gov, Police, and TS want to deal with it they can, this is not a lost cause.
*many of those users who are going to be children and thus somewhat limited in how you penalise them.
Spain allow you to buy your own but the police do stop and have a portable dyno to test that it confirms to the regs.(they now have to be homologated by the DGT)
Recently a kid was stopped on one capable of 60mph and the parents were going to liable for it.
It was around 2k+ in fines
They sell e scooters in high street shops like Curry’s and Halfords.
So why would you regard them as illegal if you can buy a scooter so easily?
Because they're not legal to ride on roads (or pavements) without lights or insurance and all the rest. You can buy ride-on lawnmowers too but you can't ride them down the high street.
Like Surrons and pit Bikes.
Sometimes you can buy homologated ones that if you have the correct licence and insurance are road legal but the rest tend to be private land use only.
Recently a kid was stopped on one capable of 60mph and the parents were going to liable for it.
It was around 2k+ in fines
Occasionally, parents in the UK are prosecuted for causing and permitting the offence (usually no license/no insurance), as well as the child getting points on their license before they are even old enough to drive - can you imagine trying to get insured as a new driver with 6 points on your license? I think the fact that credible high st shops sell them doesn't help, and I'm sure they have a "not for road use" label on them, but if a prosecutor was brave they would charge the company (or its staff) with causing and permitting and I'm sure at the very least there would be some very explicit forms being signed by customers to say they knew the limitations.