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If there was a bus every hour from outside my house to close to work I would probably still drive as it takes 15 minutes instead 45, don’t have to wait around in cold and rain and dark in Winter, don’t have to get whatever coughs and colds everyone on the bus has etc, etc.
Sure, but what if the bus was 15 mins? What if it were 20, or 10?
Sure, but what if the bus was 15 mins? What if it were 20, or 10?
No bus stops for 10 miles? Let's be realistic, there will always be many bus stops and never be able to offer the most direct route from A to B to suit everyone who is using it.
Or are you suggesting buses drive around at 90 mph on empty roads, HSn of buses?
I'm just saying what if? I'm talking about what we would need not what we can do today.
there will always be many bus stops
Not necessarily. There's a bus from where I live to town which is about 7.5 miles directly, it takes about 50 mins and is every 10 or 15 mins I think through the day. We're at the very end of the route. However they also put on another bus that goes around picking up people from just this neighbourhood then goes straight to town without stopping. It only runs at rush hours and it takes about 20 mins which is about the same as the drive, probably quicker at rush hour.
The thing that prevents busses going point to point rather than round the houses is money. And that can be obtained, with the political will.
I can drive to the nearest station, park, get the train and be at my desk in the same time and for the same cost as driving in and parking - coming home is quicker.
More importantly, I don’t have the mental angst of traffic at either end of my day.
If we can get buses to offer a similar service (trainlines being fixed) we could sort this....
There’s a bus from where I live to town which is about 7.5 miles directly, it takes about 50 mins
That's about 10mph isn't it.
I’m just saying what if? I’m talking about what we would need not what we can do today.
You are dreaming if you think even with political will a bus that goes directly from my house to my workplace 10 miles away more quickly than my car.
Buses are great for people that use them and better bus services would help those people but expecting everyone to stop using their cars because buses are improved a bit is again just not reality.
but expecting everyone to stop using their cars because buses are improved a bit is again just not reality.
Again, we're into that all or nothing argument. Make buses good enough that more people can use them, and there will be less congestion for those who can't or won't. Did Paretto die in vain?
I wonder if anyone’s pointed out that the better the public transport, the fewer cars on the roads for the die-hard motorists?
Don't start using fact and logic in these arguments.
The 'motorist' lobby are using emotion, erosion of freedoms, prejudice and conservatism (small c) as their stance.
The two don't match.
Buses are great for people that use them
You mean poor people? I suppose Sunak's onto something when he talks about driving and 'British Values'. There's no better way of looking down on someone than judging them by their need to get a bus.
I've said it many times but there's a very simple solution to getting people on public transport. Make it free of charge.
You are dreaming if you think even with political will a bus that goes directly from my house to my workplace 10 miles away more quickly than my car.
You've completely missed my point. I'm talking hypothetically, not your actual job right now.
1) Would you take a bus to work if it were quicker than a car?
2) Would you take a bus to work if it were the same time as a car?
3) Would you take a bus to work if it were just a bit longer than a car?
I’ve said it many times but there’s a very simple solution to getting people on public transport. Make it free of charge.
Yes and no - surprisingly, financial cost is not the deciding factor. It's certainly a major factor and the recent national cut to bus fares (well, most bus fares) in England has really helped get people back onto them but "cost" can be weighed up in lots of ways. The basic financial cost, time (it takes 45 mins on the bus vs 10 mins to drive), reliability (that's a huge one, it's no good having free public transport if 30% of busses are going to be randomly cancelled throughout the day) and issues such as trip-chaining (where you're coming home from work via picking the kids up, doing the shopping etc).
Sunak though is just looking at the numbers and going "most people drive so bollocks to everyone that doesn't, we'll focus on the majority" which, as a transport policy, is rather like a health policy that says "most people eat unhealthily so bollocks to all the healthy ones, we'll continue to serve up discount fast food and sugary drinks".
I’m talking hypothetically
Well start talking realistically and not just dreaming stuff up. No I would not take a bus to work unless there was a bus every 10 minutes and each of those buses were a direct route to my house that would take the same time.
If I am paying for a car already I will use it rather than a bus. I am probably not in the minority with that.
You mean poor people?
Nope, guess you do though. I mean people who just use the bus today for whatever reason. My mum for example uses the bus a lot and she is not poor.
I used to use the bus to get to work when my wife needed the car (she had a worse commute than me - mine was 1 bus for 7 miles and a 3 mile walk or 2 buses and 1/2 mile walk - both took same time so I walked for the exercise.
£5 for the 7 mile journey wasn't great though and that was years ago but that all stopped when the 07:15 bus was change to be the 11:00 bus which is now the only bus of the day)
I can drive to the nearest station, park, get the train and be at my desk in the same time and for the same cost as driving in and parking – coming home is quicker.
When I’m working in Manchester City centre I can get the bus from the bottom of my road and be in town (14 miles away) in 45 minutes. You’d have to be mental to drive in and try and park. I reckon it’d take twice as long. Fares in Manchester are now a maximum of 2 quid under Andy Burnham’s new Beeline scheme, so 4 quid a day for me. Brilliant!
This direct bus service was established after serious effort by our last Labour MP, who lost his seat at the last election to a Boris-cheerleading Brexiteer * who has done the square root of * all for his constituency in the last 4 years. With his majority of 100 votes, he’ll soon be gone. Thank god!
The 45 minutes journey time is due to bus lanes, which I believe Rishi now wants to get rid of in part of his latest ‘motorist-friendly’ bollocks.
Why have better public transport when everyone can sit in stationary traffic instead because somehow thats better?
It’s absolute madness that makes no sense to anyone other than the ‘I am absolutely determined to sit in my 4x4 come hell or high water’ brigade, who are exactly the people he’s courting with this nonsense
Well start talking realistically and not just dreaming stuff up.
What's the point? We already know the bus doesn't work for you right now in the real world. There's nothing to discuss there. You seem to think I am having a go at you.
I was trying to understand your attitude towards public transport as a general concept, because that is of course a key part of the problem we all face.
Sunak though is just looking at the numbers and going “most people drive so bollocks to everyone that doesn’t, we’ll focus on the majority” which, as a transport policy, is rather like a health policy that says “most people eat unhealthily so bollocks to all the healthy ones, we’ll continue to serve up discount fast food and sugary drinks”.
Most people are well, so what do we need hospitals for?
Honestly, he's now only one or two steps away from claiming a cabal of paedos and Jews is secretly drinking children's blood at north London parties, or that 5G is being used for mind control. Someone should ask him whether he believes 9/11 was an inside job.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1707647727385890956
I live in a part of Cardiff that was not planned with 15 mins in mind, and it's quite shit. I can buy a sofa at the retail park, or go to a big supermarket, but not much else. It's got nothing to do with public transport or cycling, it's simply a case of there being very little worth travelling to in this area, or the next two areas towards town.
Absolutely nothing looks like its going to improve for anyone but those already rich mates of Rishi’s
Well indeed but like characters from Tess of the Durbevilles the great British voting public imagine themselves one step from aristocracy and routinely vote to advance the cause of their imagined peers. Idiots.
Not shocked to see 15 minute cities as a talking point, it's particularly invasive and aggressive brain cancer and that makes it ideal for them. But it's still depressing. Sunak doesn't believe a word of it, but that's almost beside the point- how insane it is to have a prime minister, the dude actually supposedly running the country, spreading conspiracy theories about what the people who run the country are doing?
In the end it's just another case of "we have given up so completely that we've forgotten we haven't already lost" and he's coming out with wilderness-politician attack lines. But it's dangerous stuff, this, the rate it's been picked up by the easily gulled and the not-entirely-well should be worrying leaders not making them think "this looks like fun".
Not shocked to see 15 minute cities as a talking point, it’s particularly invasive and aggressive brain cancer
Totally agree. I blame the 4G masts.
I was trying to understand your attitude towards public transport as a general concept, because that is of course a key part of the problem we all face.
Public transport is a good concept, my comment around dreaming is that getting it to the point where it was actually great in practice for everybody everywhere is not going to happen, i.e. which political party would even bother trying (Greens probably best hope but they are still at their 5% mark)
It works well in towns. Where my mum lives there are loads of bus stops and buses to get wherever she wants and all at a low cost with things like £2 a day tickets and the like. She also lives in a place with the worst traffic I have to deal with outside of big cities so why are people not getting on those £2 a day buses with good service?
Even dreaming about it, how amazingly much better would that already good bus service need to be to get all those people sat in traffic out of their cars?
I can only see it happening if cars were banned from all towns and surrounding areas and the bus was the only option which I would support but can't see that being a vote winner in this democratic country of ours.
He's deployed the "war on motorists" phrase this morning
Why is this phrase never challenged with "motorists killed xxx people this year...who is really waging a war?"
I detest that lobbyists are using this ridiculous over the top rhetoric in order to distract from the very real violence their own industry and pet interest perpetuates on society
Public transport is a good concept, my comment around dreaming is that getting it to the point where it was actually great in practice for everybody everywhere is not going to happen,
We live on a small road about 10 miles from the nearest shop. It’s not likely that a bus service would give us the possibility of replacing our car. On the other hand if public transport made cities less horrible as a result of cars, maybe we’d be tempted to move back to one.
Most people are well, so what do we need hospitals for?
With suggestions like that i reckon youre a shoe in for a job in the policy unit.
@binners those would be the bus lanes that constantly disappear, especially where they are needed, are only in operation for parts of the day (which varies from road to road) and makes it difficult for motorists to turn left att busy junctions as buses undertake you so blocking you from turning left. Yeah great success, all they did was make congestion worse on main arterial routes. I could have accepted the increase in congestion if the bus lanes worked properly but they dont. The buses are good if you work in the city centre, the X43 is definitely a good service and makes sense as city centre parking isstupidly expensive. However if you dont live within walking distance the route or dont work in the city centre they are next to useless. I worked out near the Etihad Stadium for 7 years, took an hour to drive (if i was lucky), public transport would have been 3 to 4 hours each way. For balance my wife did use the bus when she worked in the city centre.
Sunak though is just looking at the numbers and going “most people drive so bollocks to everyone that doesn’t, we’ll focus on the majority” which, as a transport policy, is rather like a health policy that says “most people eat unhealthily so bollocks to all the healthy ones, we’ll continue to serve up discount fast food and sugary drinks”.
That's actually a fair summary of the current government's anti-obesity policy.
Bus lanes do work. Thats why busses get around cities without getting caught so much in congestion . When were you last on a bus?
What you mean is that by taking a little space from the car driver for the bus passanger it interferes with your godgiven right to drive where and when you want want without plebs getting in your way
Busses put more folk in a given area of road thus reducing congestion
I work in Manchester,I'm 10 miles out to the south East. Walk, train, walk takes about an hour (40 minutes walking) - £7.90. Bus, nope, would need two and a walk, so £4 each way £8 and way over an hour. Car and cheap parking at work takes about 45-60 minutes, daily cost £6-8 depending on car used (parking £4).
I cycle it in 45 minutes all weathers, and that's despite crap cycling infrastructure for about half my ride.
I know there's a specific thread but, living in Wales, being a cyclist with two toddlers who love cycling the 20mph thing was very welcome, not that anyone's sticking to it yet from what I've seen.
The bonus is it seems to have totally pissed off the inconsiderate / hard of thinking Brexit demographic, so again I'm absolutely all for it.
Incredibly depressing the next election is going to be fought over this demographic, heaven forbid there's anything progressive to happen in the next decade or so
To say Brexit demographic is grossly inaccurate and unfair.
It’s not just that nothing progressive will happen, it’s that they literally want to tear everything up and set fire to it all. Decades of progress torched in a desperate attempt to cling to power by appealing to the ‘I’m alright, so **** everyone else’ brigade
The article by Johnathan Freedland in this mornings Guardian is, as usual, absolutely on the money, particularly it’s conclusion… that the Tory party’s nationalist populist metamorphosis into UKIP is now total under Sunak
It’s going to be quite some achievement after 13 years of these bastards, and particularly given his 2 predecessors, but Sunaks speech on Monday is going to be the most depressing yet.
It looks like it’s just going to be stuffed with tinfoil-helmet conspiracy theories and ‘anti-woke’ propaganda that he’s literally making up as he goes along
I’ve got news for Rishi Sunak: he no longer leads the conservative party
@TJ you've completely misinterpreted my post, I'm broadly in favour of bus lanes. What I dont like is the piecemeal implementation in Manchester which is like a lot of cycle lanes, they disappear where they are most needed and it gets a bit difficult to design, doesnt help the buses and makes car drivers lives more dificult. That and part time bus lanes, 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm FFS, if you're going to do it, do it properly, 24/7 or don't bother. The whole approach to vehicle travel in Manchester has made the congestion worse and encouraged people to use rat runs through the residential streets. Bring on the LTNs and enforced 20 zones but also accept public transport isnt a panecea for everyone and designate certain routes as arteries so they flow. The stop start nature of traffic in Manchester must be terrible for pollution.
Stumpy - when did you last get on a bus? I suspect those who design the bus lanes understand rather more about what is needed. You want special roads for cars only so the rich can travel only on them? Nice
Oh dear, youre in one of those moods, last time I was on a bus, about a month ago. You're making stuff up "you want special roads for cars only so the rich travel on them" bit of a stretch from "I'm broadly in favour of bus lanes' and 'bring on the LTNs and enforced 20 zones'. Its almost like you didnt bother reading what I wrote.......
and designate certain routes as arteries so they flow.
Thats wanting special roads for rich people. If you do that those that cycle and use buses no longer can use those roads.
That and part time bus lanes, 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm FFS, if you’re going to do it, do it properly, 24/7 or don’t bother.
Just noting here that the dripped out information (they’re not leaks, they’re deniable briefings) is for exactly the opposite of this. Where Manchester and other regions have recently implemented full time bus lanes to make routes work outside rush hour for all road users the government are now saying they’re against this. No good evidence why… just that they know many voters don’t understand the need for them and so are against them in a reflex fashion. Every attempt to make roads work better involves a short term backlash against the measures… Sunk is banking on the timing of all this “on the side of motorists” nonsense will give him a bounce that could help build momentum toward the next general election.
No good evidence why… just that they know many voters don’t understand the need for them and so are against them in a reflex fashion.
Evidence? Pfft! Who needs 'evidence' when you've got a Daily Telegraph editorial
He's shamelessly courting the "we've had enough of experts" vote and look where thats got us so far. He might as well say that watching Countdown gives you cancer and eating marmite makes you allergic to goats. He may well say both those things on Monday, the way things are going.
On Tuesday he'll appoint Piers Corbyn as health minister
Thats wanting special roads for rich people. If you do that those that cycle and use buses no longer can use those roads.
News flash for mr tabloid its not just 'rich' people who drive in and out of Manchester, i would guess the vast majority are not what even you would refer to as rich so stop with the silly emotive labelling culture war rubbish, you're better than that.
As regards the arteries why can't they be both bus and car arteries? Most of the arterial roads in and out of Manchester are dual lane in each direction, it all goes to pot at junctions and tight spots in the network where the bus lanes disappear leaving the buses and other traffic to fight it out. The bus lanes should be continuous all the way into the city centre, have their own lights at the junctions ideally operated by induction loops in the bus lanes so the buses get priority when they get to the junction and the rest of the time when theres no buses the bus lights stay red, makes the buses flow and stops the dangerous undertaking at junctions. Why cant some of the roads be prioritised around cyclists (or buses). Not every arterial route in needs to accomodate normal traffic. The current half arsed mess we have doesnt work for anylne, least of all cyclists, and yes I have ridden in and out of Manchester, its not bad around the Etihad stadium where there are segregted cycle lanes (apart from the build up debris but thats a maintenance issue not a design one) but elsewhere the piss poor cycle infrastructure abandons you when you most need it.
Quite agree with you about the poor cycle provision - happens UK wide. Nice cycle lane where its not needed. cycleway stops just when its needed.
Look at the stats for car ownership - the poorer yo are th eless likely you are to have or use a car. thus any measures that are carcentric are automatically penalising non car users who are usually the majority in cities. Most urban journeys are not made by car.
This is pretty much bang on regarding all this nonsense
https://twitter.com/aliclow/status/1708078527818428465?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
NHS falling apart, trains on strike, war in Ukraine dragging on and killing thousands, Brexit a failure, but making roads more dangerous is their answer.
I want special roads for busses.
I mean the guy still sounds a bit of a nobber, but he makes some valid points
BBC News - Iceland boss quits Tories labelling party 'out of touch'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66972357
Talking lots of words on BBC. Won't be drawn to comment on speculation on a decision, that's his to make, on HS2 going to Manchester.
All that obfuscation on an important decision on long term plans… on the eve of a conference with the tagline…
