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He was chief whip though
And his behaviour when Minister? And after getting his gong ages after being a whip?
One down; lots more to go!
He's going to '...fight to clear his name' - titter.
Ernie – once again- there are many forms of intelligence and “Arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition” shows a lack of some aspects of it. Truss for example was spectacularly dim in this and many other regards. I wouldn’t put Thatcher in that group BTW. She did allow dissenting voices and knew the value of them
Yeah you keep telling about these many forms of intelligence TJ, I am agreeing with you that Sunak is "basically intelligent", I am only asking you where you got the impression that he is competent from - where is/was the evidence that you based this opinion on? I am suspecting that it might be nothing more than his slick presentation?
And arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition doesn't show a lack of intelligence imo. I know that you probably won't agree with me but Kwasi Kwarteng is imo undoubtedly highly intelligent, despite the fact that arrogance and self-belief, in the face of widespread opposition, caused his career in high office to spectacularly collapse.
Neither do I agree with you putting Margaret Thatcher into a separate category. Yes she was shrewd political operator who understood the value of a politically diverse Cabinet, I am not sure she tolerated "dissenting voices" though ...... Okay it was Spitting Image but there is a reason why "What about the vegetables? They will have the same as me!" was so funny and has remained an enduring TV classic.
But most of all it was her arrogance and self-belief in the face of widespread opposition that brought about the spectacular and abrupt end to Thatcher's political career.
The Poll Tax, a policy which she called her flagship policy, and which she staked everything on, was a breathtakingly daft idea. You didn't need to be a political analyst to work that one out.
Long before it was introduced it was obvious to everyone that the Poll Tax would be a total disaster - worse than any failed tax proposal made by Kwarteng.
And yet still she ploughed on with the Poll Tax, presumably fully aware of how deeply unpopular it was. And in what must surely have been an act of pure spite she introduced it in Scotland before England and Wales, presumably in revenge for Scotland consistently voting more and more for Labour during her entire premiership.
I don't know what sort of intelligence you want to attribute to Thatcher but she was clearly an intelligent woman whose daft arrogance and self-belief brought about her political career to an early and humiliating end.
He’s going to ‘…fight to clear his name’ – titter.
He missed a trick here. Everyone had been asking what the minister without a portfolio does. So could have replied "their job is to clear their name".
I am not sure she tolerated “dissenting voices” though
Remember Heseltine bound and gagged, bouncing around the back benches?
If he’s going to clear his name, I wonder if he’ll beat Cruella’s 6 day redemption?
In other news, shameless to the end, Johnson has nominated all his mates for peerages as a parting **** off to us all
https://twitter.com/marinahyde/status/1590032524759412738?s=46&t=v7V7DiAkSPbupHdz83evVQ
Lady Nadine of Barking can take her place in the Lords
And in what must surely have been an act of pure spite she introduced it in Scotland before England and Wales
If you read the accounts of the time she didnt actually want to introduce it in Scotland first since she wanted everyone to "benefit" from it at the same time.
However there was a rates change due in Scotland and so she had pressure put on her by the Scottish conservatives to introduce the poll tax early there to avoid that.
There were some of her inner circle who did see it as an opportunity to test it out before the wider introduction and also as a way of getting some of the ministers who werent convinced by it to give way (on the grounds if it ran into problems it could be rolled back) but it wasnt done out of spite.
He was chief whip though – bullying people is literally the job description
Was it Williamson's "black book" that got leaked? Had details about a former prime minister and her close friend her Chancellor?
In other news, shameless to the end, Johnson has nominated all his mates for peerages as a parting **** off to us all
Whats particularly good is the MPs nominated apparently arent going to switch until next election to avoid any awkward byelections.
Should be told take it now or gtfo.
Back to Williamson. Can he be airdropped into I am a celebrity for a deathmatch with Hancock using flamethrowers.
Two disgraced ministers enter will either leave?
Ernie - you really need to grasp this concept of differing types of intelligence. Psychiatrists all agree there are many forms. Kwartang is a classic example of someone who has a very high level of one form and very little of others
Really dude - check it out Kwartang is seriously dim in everything but scholastic achievement which only measures a very limited and narrow type of intelligence. Truss is even more obvious. Seriously dim.
You have this weird deference to anyone with scholastic achievement. Its just a very narrow type of intelligence and a very poor measure
You have far more emotional intelligence that any of these clowns for example
Sunak
You could well be right in that I was conned by Sunaks seeming competence. I feared he would be more competent that he is and might recover the tories fortunes. He just seemed competent to me. I was apparantly wrong
Success in politics isn't about intelligence tests but political nous. They have countless varying scenarios played out in front of them by civil servants and think tanks plus units coming up with slogans with a bit of alliteration and a pattern of three. The Oxbridge bit can be useful in persuading the more cap doffing voters that they know what they're doing but it comes down to which guidance they choose to run with and Truss and Kwarteng showed you can be spectacularly wrong. Whereas Williamson, Phillips and so on show you can climb the greay pole without being the sharpest knife in the drawer.
There were some of her inner circle who did see it as an opportunity to test it out before the wider introduction
Yeah I think introducing it into Scotland was always seen as a bit of a test/dry run for the rest of the UK. And whilst I accept that allegations of 'spite' might be an exaggeration and hyperbole it does seem particularly "ironic" for want of a better word, that it should have been introduced in the one part of the UK where it undoubtedly had least support.
Whilst Tory support remained more or less stable in England throughout Thatcher's premiership it fell in every Scottish general election. By the time of the Poll Tax's introduction the Tories were deeply unpopular in Scotland, and yet they still remained popular in England.
How long do we give Williamson? I’ll start the bidding at 3 days
he didn't even make that!
Success in politics isn’t about intelligence tests but political nous
"Nous" is a form of intelligence! Just its not a form measured in intelligence tests or scholastic achievement - thats why I put Thatcher in a different category to Truss and Kwateng - she had a much broader range of itelligence than Truss
So did Williamson hang on till just after the 7 o'clock news on Channel 4?😐
So when does Braverman get the chop?
And of course Sunak now has serious questions to answer about why he appointed Williamson
Ernie – you really need to grasp this concept of differing types of intelligence.
No I really don't TJ. I attach very little importance to whether someone is intelligent or not, or what sort of intelligence they might possess.
There are far more important things that matter to me. I never seem to feel the need to judge someone's intelligence.
Like you I don't believe that it is one single thing which defines intelligence - so why even bother to think about it?
Unless it is part of your job as a psychologist or something.
How on earth does the HR department keep up with this?
"Brenda, can you update the Cabinet Minister's webpage again, take Williamson out?"
"WTF, I only put him in 2 days ago!"
Ernie - so why do you keep on slating me when I say Truss is dim?
Anyway - we are diverting this again 😉
I have been pondering on why I expected Sunak to me more competent than he has proven to be. I guess i was conned. I'm not good at sussing duplicitous people and he had not done any obviously incompetent things that I had seen - indeed his analysis of what would happen if Truss became PM was remarkably accurate
How on earth does the HR department keep up with this?
They dispensed with the HR department a while back. They just pull names out of a hat now, to see who’s going to be in cabinet this week
Gavin Williamson will pick up £16,876 in severance pay for lasting exactly TWO weeks in government (plus £2,589 in gross pay)
As it's the third time he's been sacked/ forced to quit govt, presumably he's done quite nicely out of taxpayer.
He’s the political equivalent of Jose Mourinho
Ernie – so why do you keep on slating me when I say Truss is dim?
No I haven't slated you. I just don't agree with you. It doesn't matter whether you think Truss is dim or not. The important thing is that that's not the issue. The problem with Tory leaders is not that they might be dim. Clever Tory leaders are not the solution. IMO
So why do you keep slating me for my alledged cap-doffing deference?
I have been pondering on why I expected Sunak to me more competent than he has proven to be.
Because he spends a lot of time and effort on PR and there were, generally, bigger screwups at anyone time than him.
He was also good at diving into the background when one of his plans failed and having "sources" brief it was all Johnsons fault.
Problem is the submarine approach fails when you are PM and cant duck and leave the boss isolated.
Truce! time out!
you really need to grasp this concept of differing types of intelligence. Psychiatrists all agree there are many forms.
Tj, are you sure you mean psychiatrists and not psychologists? Either way I for one don’t buy the numerous types of intelligence idea. Just for the record.
Problem is the submarine approach fails when you are PM and cant duck and leave the boss isolated.
While his cabinet isnt quite as desperately bad as Truss's or Johnsons were, he still got some daft choices in there: raab, coffee, Braverman, (even Wallace a gamble with his scandals).... Williamson won't be the last
Psychologists is right
Its the consensus and well accepted that there are multiple forms. Definitions of the types are disputed.
Will we know either way - a bit like Sunak's wife giving up Non-Dom status, do we really know?
Exactly what I thought, unless Mrs Sunak openly shows all her taxes for the year how would we know. She has basically just thought she could make it go away by stating she will now be paying. I would trust her about as much as I would trust Williamson.
I wonder who's job it will be to tell Gavin that he's sadly not invited to attend the Coronation?
a bit like Sunak’s wife giving up Non-Dom status, do we really know?
She hasnt. She has just agreed to pay the normal year to year taxes on income.
Its a rather major difference because it means it dodges inheritance tax etc.
I wonder who’s job it will be to tell Gavin that he’s sadly not invited to attend the Coronation?
Made me laugh.
Its a rather major difference because it means it dodges inheritance tax etc.
Really? Sneaky. And this is what the budget that isn't a budget is likely to be like, now Sunak has delayed it to put his own stamp on it. He does have a skill for announcing things that sound good (or rather, not so bad), but then when the details become known the glitter falls off the shit.
Rishi’s 3rd PMQ’s and for the third time his answer to everything was ‘yeah, but, but… Jeremy Corbyn’
That’s literally all he’s got. Absolutely desperate.
That’s literally all he’s got. Absolutely desperate.
He looks as out of his depth as Truss did. Even more so in some respects, at least Truss made an attempt to come out fighting. Sunak just looks like he can't be arsed.
Didn't see it, only listened to it. He sounds sunk.
Really? Sneaky
Yes. "Voluntarily" paying taxes whilst retaining nondom status which can be deployed as and when necessary. I stick the quotes round it since it isnt really voluntarily is it? To only start paying when hubbies career was on the line.
And this is what the budget that isn’t a budget is likely to be like, now Sunak has delayed it to put his own stamp on it
Its due on the 17th of November and has been upgraded from a special fiscal operation to an actual budget.
He isnt doing great is he. I do find it odd how they all have the skill to get to the top of their party and so clearly have some political/emotional etc etc intelligence but then fall to bits once given a bit more exposure.
Doesnt bode well for the level of groupthink the tories seem to have fallen into.
upgraded ... to an actual budget
I didn't know that. Thanks.
Doesnt bode well for the level of groupthink the tories seem to have fallen into
The trouble is that there are two separate tribes with their own completely different groupthink.
You’ve the old one nation lot with their quaint oldschool ideas like the nation not descending into fascism, then the ERG headbangers and their ultra hardline Brexit fruit-loopery. The nutters used to be a minority but since Johnson’s purges they’re now half the party
To satisfy one lot he has to really piss off the other half, or he tries to balance in the middle and satisfies nobody.
I think the gig will be up for him when he tries to deliver this budget. One lot (with a sense of self-preservation) will think it’s too much austerity, the other lot will accuse him of being a socialist.
The party is now unmanageable. God only knows why anyone would want the job of trying
It's nice that Sunak has regrets about Williamson. Regrets about appointing him? No. Regrets that he's a known shitbag who's been fired twice from the cabinet previously? No. Only regret is that he's resigned.
Rishi’s 3rd PMQ’s and for the third time his answer to everything was ‘yeah, but, but… Jeremy Corbyn’That’s literally all he’s got. Absolutely desperate.
John Crace took him to pieces over it in the Guardian.
I'm actually surprised Sunak didn't blame Corbyn for the appointment of Williamson...
I’m actually surprised Sunak didn’t blame Corbyn for the appointment of Williamson…
He is waiting for the report that seems very likely to say "yes Williamson is a complete turd and has been for years" before doing that. Doesnt want to spend his ammo early.
Well,every multi millionaire should have a few moments of reflection.
Has he not read the other report ,about having the most incompetent bunch of lightweights in any tory cabinet..like..evvaa.
Williamson is the least of his worries,but hey,it gives him lots of room for blaming everyone else when it goes (even more) titsup.
Oh the times we are living in.
I’m actually surprised Sunak didn’t blame Corbyn for the appointment of Williamson…
Rosie Holt did
https://twitter.com/RosieisaHolt/status/1590335915016294400?t=jNgvcVyJnHc-fIUAtQyzCQ&s=19
She too convincing for some on twitter 😀
That is quite incredible
Yep, the greatest gift the ‘selling’ of Brexit gave was the fracturing of reality, you now can’t easily discern fact from parody as they are almost indistinguishable 🙂
TBH you wonder how long they can play the Korben bogeyman card, must have been a different character to the 5th element where he was the hero.
Yes. “Voluntarily” paying taxes whilst retaining nondom status which can be deployed as and when necessary. I stick the quotes round it since it isnt really voluntarily is it? To only start paying when hubbies career was on the line.
Yep it’s an interesting thing when you can decide to voluntarily decide to pay taxes as the plebs with PAYE don’t have the opportunity to exercise this option.
Or the opportunity to legally avoid taxation.
In their case a lot of taxation 20m and what were they going to do with it stick it on the pile with the other x millions for a rainy day.
That is quite incredible
Which bit do you doubt?
I think taking away Captain Tom's poppy is probably an exaggeration but the rest sounds pretty feasible.
Rosie Holt did
What the ****.
What the ****.
That really is staggering. I half expected canned laughter because it was a parody sketch.
the plebs with PAYE don’t have the opportunity to exercise this option.
Meh reflecting on it that’s not 100%
Well without moving out of the country to somewhere with a dual taxation treaty and a lower taxation which could possibly reduce your taxation but I’m not sure this is that common 🙂
Dudeofnondom
Oh, bruneep, you bar steward.😁
Which bit do you doubt?
That HOlt thought what she said made any sense and was in anyway an answer to the question
That really is staggering. I half expected canned laughter because it was a parody sketch.
They probably should make a law for the reintroduction of canned laughter 🙂
Does make you wonder thou how well it slides over you listening to it and how much you really listen to stuff.
That HOlt thought what she said made any sense and was in anyway an answer to the question
I'm pretty sure that Rosie Holt knew exactly what she saying, and that it makes perfect sense.
That HOlt thought what she said made any sense and was in anyway an answer to the question
You'll love her other interviews in that case
Which bit do you doubt?
Where to start? Maybe you could elaborate a bit more on what she meant by awarding PPE contracts to communists?
Edit: Oops 🙂
😂
Maybe you could elaborate a bit more on what she meant by awarding PPE contracts to communists?
Presumably she meant the contracts going to China?
I thought the parties down the allotment sounded quite feasible.
Just incase any of you are unsure who Rosie is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Holt
Now I'm not sure if you're doing a parody or not, ernie.
The scary thing is, most of the Rosie Holt parody (people do know it's parody, right?) is almost word for word what was said yesterday by whichever junior minister they rolled out for BBC Breakfast (some female, can't remember who).
The "Starmer supported Corbyn" is going to be very stale by 2024...a lot will be saying "who's Corbyn?"
Right over my head that was. I feel silly
Right over my head that was.
If you actually click on the Twitter link the clip provides useful subtitles.
What - it says "TJ is a gullible idiot"?
Don't feel bad, part of Rosie's schtick is that it's all entirely plausible I think she's even fooled members of the party she lampoons in the past.
I’m guessing a lot of people haven’t checked out Rosie Holt’s political career to date before commenting 🙂
Sunak is going to meet Sturgeon and Drakeford. That will be interesting for him. Sturgeon has already put herself on the front foot with a statement about what will be discussed. He is about to meet two far more able politicians than him.
A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “Ahead of the 38th British-Irish Council this Friday, the First Minister will hold bilateral talks with the Prime Minister in Blackpool on Thursday afternoon and take part in a meeting of the Prime Minister and Heads of Devolved Government Council immediately following that.
“The meeting will be an opportunity to discuss the cost of living crisis, the need to avoid damaging austerity in the upcoming Autumn Statement and the importance of respecting the right of the people of Scotland to choose their own constitutional future.”
First Minister will hold bilateral talks with the Prime Minister in Blackpool
Imagine fighting your way up the greasy pole to the highest offices in the land, only to find out that you're required to go to a meeting in Blackpool.
I’m guessing a lot of people haven’t checked out Rosie Holt’s political career to date before commenting
I've checked and apparently she has never been a Tory MP.
What has political career been?
Sunak is going to meet Sturgeon and Drakeford.
He is about to meet two far more able politicians than him.
🤣
Great comedy value, this thread.
Great comedy value, this thread.
Which one do you think will lose their job first...? Place your bets.
Anyway, at least Sunak is acknowledging the first ministers, unlike Truss.
Right over my head that was. I feel silly
Don't feel bad. You're not the first. It's a running joke on twitter now 😀
Configuration
Which of Sturgeon and Sunak leads a party that consistently gets near 50% of the vote and still is polling around that?
Which of them is praised for their handling of the pandemic from right around the political spectrum?
Sturgeon is now on the 5th tory PM while she has been first minister
I do not support the SNP nor vote SNP but I can see an able politician and am not blinded by ideology
I can see an able politician and am not blinded by ideology
🤣🤣🤣🤣
A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “Ahead of the 38th British-Irish Council this Friday, the First Minister will hold bilateral talks with the Prime Minister in Blackpool on Thursday afternoon and take part in a meeting of the Prime Minister and Heads of Devolved Government Council immediately following that
I hope Sunak is aware of the reputation that Scots have when on holiday in Blackpool, I expect to see a naked Sunak riding a donkey along the beach with a stick of rock up his arse, a kiss-me-quick hat on his head and covered in vomit fleeing from Sturgeon.
Well that’s an image I’ll struggle to remove with the mind bleach
You really don't want to know what Sturgeon will be doing then...
Sounds like a job for Jim'll paint it!