On another note, it’s the ‘BREXITEERS ONLY’ edition of Question Time tonight, live from Clackers.
I might tune in for that. I could do with a good laugh.
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Oh christ! I'm sure that'll highlight the alternative universe these people inhabit
Brexit is going well
Boris did a brilliant job and was the victim of a witch-hunt
I managed when interest rates were 16%
We're being swamped by immigrants
Bringing back hanging would cut crime
Anything else?
Our first question is from Mr Moimoifan of Singletrackeby.
Is there anyone in the audience capable of defining the following three terms?
Gaslighting.
Pyrrhic victory.
Schadenfreude.
Ok, err no? Right, moving on. Who here is in favour of bringing back the birch?
Brexit is going well
Boris did a brilliant job and was the victim of a witch-hunt
I managed when interest rates were 16%
We’re being swamped by immigrants
Bringing back hanging would cut crime
You missed out "It may be tough in the short term, but in the long run we'll be better off".
That one is the preserve of those who are aware enough to know what disaster it is, but will be dead soon anyway.
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While in the hands of the party of economic competence, supposedly. How can people not see through these utter shysters!
There’s ****s out there who’ll vote Tory no matter what happens
That one is the preserve of those who are aware enough to know what disaster it is, but will be dead soon anyway.
Not really. Those lot stuck in the caveat "but the government will protect us from it".
The ones who argued long term were the likes of Rees-Mogg.
Skipping over the hard in the short term is for the plebs. For them it would be profit time.
Some grim reading for number 10
Isn’t Sunak already at the Johnson level of "Phew, made it through another week"?
I doubt it goes much beyond that now. The backbenchers aren't turning up at the Commons because they're too busy cultivating their next job grift for after the GE.
Sunak will be relaxing with a glass of champers at one of his palatial residencies rather than doing anything as undignified as worrying about stuff. After all, none of this will result in that **** being anything less than filthy rich.
Not particularly rosy for Starmer, either. Is the rating because people think he should be more aggressive, or more socialist, or both?
Either way, Tory support is, I think, bumping along the bottom, but Starmer is not exactly getting Blair-like approvals. Wouldn't be surprised if this is more incentive for Sunak to go for GE in the autumn, before we have another cost-of-living and mortgage misery winter, followed by the possibility of actual recession in the New Year.
Wow. 20% are happy with the way the country is being run
Wow. 20% are happy with the way the country is being run
I can hazard a guess at the demographic of that 20%.
I'm thinking... triple pension lock... 4 bed house bought for £15,000... defined benefit pension scheme.
So, basically, those who are alright Jack with little skin in the game.
I wonder how many of those who say they are dissatisfied with Starmer are from the left, and will probably end up voting Labour anyway.
The optics of being the opposition leader are difficult, you don't get the air time or the visual context of being surrounded by the trappings and ornaments of office. Even Corbyn came across a lot better than expected in 2017 once he had the exposure that a GE campaign offers.
Once they're out on the stump, I can see Sunak getting eviscerated by Starmer whatever the date. Wherever he goes, Rishi's aides will have a map showing the whereabouts of the nearest fridge.
Wherever he goes, Rishi’s aides will have a map showing the whereabouts of the nearest fridge.
And a massive Union Jack and 'Stop The Boats' in 10ft letters on a placard.
I wonder how many of those who say they are dissatisfied with Starmer are from the left, and will probably end up voting Labour anyway.
That was definitely the calculated strategy used New Labour strategists such as Peter Mandelson in 1997, ie, that they could move Labour further and further to the right as those on the left would have no choice but to vote Labour anyway unless they wanted another 5 years of Tory government.
The strategy certainly worked in 1997 although there was in later years some hemorrhaging of Labour support to the LibDems under Charles Kennedy, especially over the drive to war.
But this isn't 1997 and the conditions are different. For example the electorate has moved decisively to the left on economic issues - privatisation no longer has the appeal it once had and voters are now far more likely to back nationalisation, they have seen money can suddenly appear when required such as to bail out the banks. And 15 years ago 'austerity' could be sold to voters, today it is a dirty word which even the Tories won't use.
Also the Tories are not now as much of a threat as they were when they were united in 1997. Unlike 1997 the Tories today have completely run out of ideas to sell to voters, are in effect ideologically rudderless, and at each others throats.
Then there is the stark reality that Keir Starmer is utterly devoid of even a hint of charisma, unlike Tony Blair who despite in my opinion being a waffling bullshitter did have a vague ability to charm people.
Add to all that the fact that Starmer has gone out of his way to wage war on the left in a way that Blair never did, in fact Starmer calls it "New Labour on steroids", and I am not so sure how much commitment there will be from those on the left to get out and vote for someone who they fundamentally disagree with, and who in all likelihood will be the next Prime Minister.
I reckon that Labour might have serious problems mobilising activists during the next general election campaign to do all the hard and very boring work which is absolutely vital and often erroneously dismissed as unimportant.
New Labour strategists such as Peter Mandelson
Talking of which:
I particularly like this:
Lord Mandelson very much regrets ever having been introduced to Epstein. This connection has been a matter of public record for some time. He never had any kind of professional or business relationship with Epstein in any form.”
So they were just good mates, like Prince Andrew was?
And how come Peter Mandelson regrets it now? He was accepting invitations from Jeffrey Epstein after Epstein had been convicted of being a nonce:
The report also suggests that Lord Mandelson stayed at Epstein’s New York home in June 2009 – when he was still Gordon Brown’s business secretary and the financier was serving 18 months in prison for soliciting prostitution from a minor.
Mandelson must have known why Epstein wasn't around when he stayed in his home.
If Peter Mandelson was a Corbyn supporter and Corbyn was currently Labour leader this story would have been plastered on every newspaper front page and also have been a major TV news item.
But Mandelson is a Starmer supporter and in turn Starmer is the preferred choice of the right-wing press, so consequently very few people are probably even aware of the story.
Very latest poll:
https://twitter.com/Omnisis/status/1672258230720888832
I'm not sure how the Tories managed to do that considering the week they have just had but it still leaves Labour with a healthy 20 point lead.
"I reckon that Labour might have serious problems mobilising activists during the next general election campaign to do all the hard and very boring work which is absolutely vital and often erroneously dismissed as unimportant."
That is a good point, for all the talk about the influence of mainstream and social media on politics, boots on the ground is vital and takes up an enormous portion of the workload, as someone pointed out on another political thread a couple of weeks back.
Starmer might find it hard to mass the troops but then again, it's not like they will be outnumbered on the doorsteps by Tory canvassers.
On the charisma front, at least when you start at the bottom the only way is up and when facing the public, I expect Sunak to have more problems than Starmer in this regard, he is so out of touch, for him the only way is down.
I expect Laboir to loose a few votes to the Liberals but the Tories will lose more. If the left stay at home then they'll get what they deserve I guess...
I'll be doing leaflet drops and a bit of doorstop chatter (not that I'm any good at that). My first general election doing so.
Anyway... why don't we have a thread to talk about Keir Starmer and his leadership of the Labour Party... just an idea.
Once they’re out on the stump, I can see Sunak getting eviscerated by Starmer whatever the date.
I would like this to be true, but I don't see it happening. Starmer is The Sensible Adult, which we need, but his tie is tied too tightly. he doesn't seem great at connecting with people, and he is not a cut and thrust politician. Biden showed it is possible to be a grown up and also get a couple of jabs in. It's easy for the Tories to be inflammatory and stir up the base. Come the campaign, he needs to give space to the MPs that will go out and start punching the Tory lies in the face.
If he's Blair on steriods, where's his bigger, angrier, earthier Prescott? Get Jess Philips off the ****ing sideline, bab
"If he’s Blair on steriods, where’s his bigger, angrier, earthier Prescott?"
Angela Rayner?
Be interesting to see how the byelections turn out.
Speaking of which is mad nad still carrying out her investigation into why she was stupid enough to trust what Johnson told her?
Angela Rayner?
I like her too and I want more. In a better world, Starmer would be the gammon-reassuring Biden to her paradigm-smashing Obama. But we are where we are.
Meanwhile, deep in the wreckage of the Conservative Party, a message from the Deputy Chairman:
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1672332632758034432
So you have one arsehole claiming that you can cook a nutritional meal for 30p, and another arsehole claiming that the solution to the cost of living crises is for people not to buy Heinz's baked beans, and now the pair of them treat it all like some sort of amusing joke to be celebrated in front of TV cameras?
The crassness of it all is quite remarkable.
https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/brendan-clarke-smith-mp-tells-8448957
So you have one arsehole claiming that you can cook a nutritional meal for 30p, and another arsehole claiming that the solution to the cost of living crises is for people not to buy Heinz’s baked beans
Tories always aim so high when telling us what to do.
The whole crux of their economic decisions appear to be built around failure rather than success.
But then again they're all busy telling us to suck it up - like Andrew Bailey (a man with a History degree running the government's bank) on his juicy 500,000.
There seems to be a pattern in the interview training regime employed by cphq, gives ai a bad name when it's called robotic. :/
I reckon that Labour might have serious problems mobilising activists during the next general election campaign to do all the hard and very boring work which is absolutely vital and often erroneously dismissed as unimportant.
As an ex-shop steward I would sooner remove my genitals with a whisk than vote red. They no longer represent me or mine. I suspect it will be green or a spoiled ballot.
The lessons of the referendum vote have not been learned. Losers consent is required to govern effectively it's not a winner takes all situation despite the FPTP system we are forced to employ to select those who are to represent us. Claiming a mandate on a 30-ish percent share of the electorate (not just those that vote) is not democratic and never will be.
Losers consent is required to govern effectively it’s not a winner takes all situation despite the FPTP system we are forced to employ to select those who are to represent us. Claiming a mandate on a 30-ish percent share of the electorate (not just those that vote) is not democratic and never will be.
Not “effectively”. But if we give the Tories another majority government on the back of a minority vote… govern they will, effectively or not. Democratically or not.
I find it quit interesting that Labour and conservatives are still the largest political parties in the UK, by a large margin... despite them both being utterly incompetent in thier own tragic and unique ways.
We get the government we deserve.
Unlike which country?
Edit: Btw the LibDems have also proved to be utterly incompetent in government. After being enthusiastic cheerleaders for austerity the LibDems now admit that it was a huge mistake.
It is no mystery why the LibDem's stint in government didn't give them a massive boost of credibility, and why instead their support collapsed.
Well you’d be wrong
Well that is possible. Maybe Starmer's commitment to make Labour the "real conservatives" will energise activists to mobilise during the next election campaign, but that certainly isn't the feedback that I'm getting in marginal Croydon.
The despondency that I'm picking up at the trade union club doesn't seem to suggest that. What are you basing your belief that mobilising activists won't be a problem at all - your own personal enthusiasm?
Btw I thought you only wanted to talk about Rishi Sunak on this thread? I made that comment two days ago.
Off you pop, to the thread that everyone else avoids, with those same handful of righteous comrades endlessly shouting at each other in furious agreement….
Off you pop….
I don't understand why you even bother. You know full well that I will mention any politician I want on whatever thread I want. Just like you do.
Edited for your edit:
endlessly shouting at each other in furious agreement
I find it particularly bizarre that you of all people should come out with that comment. Your lack of self-awareness is quite frankly remarkable.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, those Tories <tsk> what a bunch of….good night.
I find it quit interesting that Labour and conservatives are still the largest political parties in the UK, by a large margin… despite them both being utterly incompetent in thier own tragic and unique ways.
We get the government we deserve.
What do you propose "we" do about it? I vote Green and yet see a Tory MP win every time with 60%. What should "we" do about that? (and don't say revolution)
Unless it has changed recently mattyfez's strategy is to vote LibDem.
What do you propose “we” do about it? I vote Green and yet see a Tory MP win every time with 60%. What should “we” do about that? (and don’t say revolution)
Vote True and Fair party. It's kind of like voting LibDem except you're voting for actual policies rather than for the 60,000 or so LibDem members to decide what you voted for after you've voted for it.
https://www.trueandfairparty.uk/political-policies
rather than for the 60,000 or so LibDem members to decide what you voted for after you’ve voted for it.
They do? I think that will be news to them considering how often they have been ignored.
I don’t understand why you even bother. You know full well that I will mention any politician I want on whatever thread I want. Just like you do.
Yes, telling other people where the boundaries are in political debate should be met with contempt.
Too many people could simply choose to ignore a comment about something if they want to.
It's really not hard.
Starmer went trotting off to a Murdoch party last week. He puts himself in the Tory category time and time again.
It's also damn ridiculous to isolate political debate to one precise topic too.
Off you pop, to the thread that everyone else avoids, with those same handful of righteous comrades endlessly shouting at each other in furious agreement
Lol the very definition of the Sunak, Johnson, Truss or many Brexit threads.
simply choose to ignore a comment
Depends how often much the same comment is made, in every single political thread, like a flood of repetition seemingly designed to make it impossible to ignore. Definitely hard to avoid.
.
They do? I think that will be news to them considering how often they have been ignored.
I used to say, 'You have absolutely no idea what you are actually voting for if you vote LibDem' but then a LibDem member corrected me and said, 'No, you're voting LibDem so that we can decide what you voted for afterwards.'