even I know that argument is utter mince.
explain why then.
Sunak’s got real “headboy who’s not made it to his first choice university course” vibes hasn’t he?
So they're not going to implement policies they started? And at the same time they're going to stop things that never started?
So. Much. Double. Thinking. And. Bullshit.
Sadly, I can imagine a lot of people will like this...
https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1704541203818008723?t=Omma0PtSSzLGlEW1BRWgAA&s=19
Yeah I'd be interested to know as well considering I'm actually involved in the design, installation and running of charge points. Even a housing estate like mine will struggle if every house runs a 7.5kw charger overnight. Average household consumption of electricity is 2800kwh, a 7.5kw charger run for 8 hours overnight every other night will use 10800kwh, if it's a 2 car household it could be double that. Do you think the grid is currently running at 25% capacity, news flash it's already maxing out in places.
If your utter mince comment was directed at the cost of rapid charging see above, figures quoted are what it costs us at the moment for charger points. Basic economics dictates there's a lot more overhead to pay for during rapid charging in addition to the power cost.
I'm pro EV by the way, we just need to be realistic about implementing it and we should have started properly some time ago.
Stumpyjon hits the nail on the head. 2030 was never going to happen because the national grid and local transmission can’t yet cope with the power requirements. Substations need upgrading etc etc. All sunak has done is turn a post election failure into a pre election sales pitch that the many many voters are really pleased about
It will not happen completely even after 2035, hence the curve ball to Starmer.
Starmer is banking on enough "number" to support his "stealth" approach but his opponents saw him coming miles away. The bloke has no new ideas. LOL!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66872827
My understanding, although I left the industry several years ago now, was that the transmission network had enough headroom for EVs and heat pumps, although that prob depends on smart appliances (so they avoid peak periods). It's the local distribution network that needs reinforcement, as people are saying above.
Graeme and some other engineers I know are still saying this on Twitter. Obviously, there's massive network investment needed to get to 2050.
Jamze thats also my understanding, that and getting renewables connected to the grid at the generation end.
While he's on a roll....Education next for the Rishi treatment.
https://www.ft.com/content/d62fde2b-0803-4211-805e-4bd571714600
I'm going to place a bet that when they lose the next election they go all out - ban any immigration, NHS privatisation, privatise UK government pensions investments etc
@stumpyjon I was talking about Daz, not you, well aware you're at the pointy end of distribution.
@dazh it already was explained on the last page, I'm not for regurgitating it.
Even a housing estate like mine will struggle if every house runs a 7.5kw charger overnight. Average household consumption of electricity is 2800kwh, a 7.5kw charger run for 8 hours overnight every other night will use 10800kwh, if it’s a 2 car household it could be double that.
Hence smart chargers. Very few people will need to charge 8 hours overnight, it's going to be 1 or 2 in most cases and with smart chargers this can be staggered. But it will need managing and planning of course.
Weve got to get the idea of quick charging as the norm out of our heads
It's not in the heads of most EV drivers at the moment, almost everyone only rapid charges occasionally. But you are right about people with no driveway. However, charging needs to be in street where people live, a lot of people e.g. women won't want to park up in a car park and walk home late at night.
And why would you need to charge your car every night or ever other night anyway. If by 2030 the typical EV can cover 200 miles between charges who is doing 200 miles every 2 days? I don't even do 200 miles a week most weeks and I feel like I drive quite a bit.
The real point is that commitments need er, commitment. To hit the 2030 goal would need infrastructure investments, changes to lifestyles etc,. and there was ~10 years to try and do that but so far they have done **** all and over the next 7 years would probably have done **** all. Still, no rush is there.
But you are right about people with no driveway.
This is the crux of the issue. With a 2030 deadline we've got 10 years to install all the infrastructure for on-street charging. Can anyone seriously see that happening? The alternative is telling people who aren't rich enough to have a driveway that they need to get the bus. Good luck with that.
I'm not against EVs or getting people out of their cars. I spent most of my youth campaigning against car culture and road building. I am realistic though, and the reality is that transitioning to EVs is a very complex problem to solve and we currently have no strategic plan or investment about how to do that other than 'leave it to the market'. I think we all know how that will end.
With a 2030 deadline we’ve got 10 years to install all the infrastructure for on-street charging. Can anyone seriously see that happening? The alternative is telling people who aren’t rich enough to have a driveway that they need to get the bus. Good luck with that.
Alternatively build massive charging complexes where people can go and charge their cars. Much easier than on street charging.
And again, 7 years is a long time in EV development and who knows what charging times and range will be like for a new EV in 2030 and beyond combined with the fact that the new petrol cars purchased in 2029 will have another 10+ years of life left in them. Why is anyone having to get the bus.
Alternatively build massive charging complexes
Ohhhhhh, okay, well that's easy enough then.
@dazh it already was explained on the last page, I’m not for regurgitating it.
Well I just had a quick scan through the last two pages and there's nothing explaining other than 'poor people don't buy new cars'. Even without the problems around charging infrastructure EVs are not magically just going replace ICE cars because you remove the supply. Without sufficient scrappage schemes and other plans to incentivise working people to switch there will be a stampede to buy up the remaining ICE cars in circulation, the result will be massive increase in prices for used ICE vehicles.
And again, 7 years is a long time in EV development
7 years might be a long time in vehicle development but it's a blink in the eye when it comes to ripping up every street in the country to install on-street charge points and add all the substation infrastructure.
with the fact that the new petrol cars purchased in 2029 will have another 10+ years of life left in them.
I see 15-20 year old cars on the road these days that look practically new. It’s only the tech inside them that dates them.
2029 will have another 10+ years of life left in them.
My ICE car is 15 years old and has about 100k on the clock. It has had (touch wood) no major mechanical issues yet.
It will be replaced by a small electric van in the next couple of years, paid by for by corporation tax allowance.
...new petrol cars purchased in 2029 will have another 10+ years of life left in them. Why is anyone having to get the bus.
You're forgetting that there will most likely be very few ICE cars available to buy by then. That's what Ford's complaint is all about, they're gearing up to replace their whole range with EV's across Europe so their ICE range will be limited by 2027/8. They're not going to continue manufacturing old models until 2029 (as per the old rules) as they then risk having stock they cannot sell so your buying choices will be limited. Don't forget the killed off the Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo and their replacements will be EV and that will have been planned a few years ago. Add in that we drive in the opposite side to a lot of countries and that makes the prospect of UK ICE models not commercially viable. This current cycle of models with ICE power will most likely be the last we see in our showrooms. Us pushing back the cutoff date will make no difference to them. We might get lucky and have a few hybrid models to choose from but the manufacturers will dictate what's available now and that will be driven by their sales in other markets.
I'm on my second EV car having had the first for three years, drive around 8k a year in it and have a drive. Planned to get a fast charger installed but have not bothered as plugging it in to my outside three pin supply has always been enough. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've used a fast charger when travelling and from my experience there's as many broken as there are working but that's another story!
Sunak is a twot btw.
but it’s a blink in the eye when it comes to ripping up every street in the country to install on-street charge points and add all the substation infrastructure.
Again, why do you need to do that. Why not build massive charging areas rather than digging up every street.
Very easy to do if the will is there.
Why not build massive charging areas rather than digging up every street.
Because people want to park their cars outside their house. Try to change that and they'll vote against it. It might be stupid and illogical from an infrastructure point of view but that's the reality.
Because people want to park their cars outside their house. Try to change that and they’ll vote against it. It might be stupid and illogical from an infrastructure point of view but that’s the reality.
You can still park you car outside your house but will need to go somewhere else to charge it, you don't have a petrol supply outside of each house.
And people can't vote against something if that is all they are offered can they. Which is what was happening with the 2030 objective until this week. Tory and Labour were both supportive of it.
This needs a bit more imaginative thinking rather than just "you can't do it because" nonsense.
You can still park you car outside your house but will need to go somewhere else to charge it, you don’t have a petrol supply outside of each house.
My nearest petrol station is a 25 minute walk from my house. If you think people are going to park their car a significant walk away from home to charge it for 8 hours then you're deluded. The only way replacing existing petrol station infrastructure with EV charging will work is if charging your car takes the same time as filling up with petrol. It's just not going to happen.
And people can’t vote against something if that is all they are offered can they
Again the reality is that you'll never get the political consensus to force something through. As we have seen this week, politicians will always sieze an opportunity to win votes. Even if labour and the tories agree, then someone else like Farage will appear and we all know what happens then, you get stuff like brexit happening.
Funny how a party that's been in power for 13 years and literally legislated for all these 'green' initiatives, set the timelines and is now delaying them plus hasn't actually put in place the environment (charges, grid, subs etc) is still the party that (some) folk trust to run the country.
I had a long drive yesterday so had LBC on inbetween music sessions, felt like gammon central listening to the majority of them quite frankly talking utter rubbish - have they got no critical thinking skills whatsoever?
1. you can go out and pick up a leaf for ~10k sh
2. The average car journey in the UK is 7 miles.
3. There is an electricity supply to the vast majority of houses, and street lights on the vast majority of roads you can combine in to the charging network. For most use cases you don't need to charge from flat to 100% in 20 minutes so most chargers can be slow ones.
4. For most journeys there is a start and a finish. Given average journey length and idle time of most cars you can charge at the other end. If you need to do a long journey you can fast charge on the way.
5. I think most people have seen we need to do ****ing something!
I've done 10k miles since 21st July for work so ev's for me will be bloody hard to implement. I'm driving from Shrewsbury to Inverness and back for one days work next week, installing operating theatre equipment with specialist kit so there's no real way around it.
I'd like to see more freight on the railways but that would need to be like the channel tunnel, roll on roll off trains. Why didn't they do this for hs2?
<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">My nearest petrol station is a 25 minute walk from my house.</span><span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';"> </span>
And that's relevant for what reason?
For those interested - when I first started driving there were about 23,000 petrol stations in the UK (down from 40k in 1970), now there are less than 9,000. One reason, cars just didn't have the range they have now.
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">"I’ve done 10k miles since 21st July for work so ev’s for me will be bloody hard to implement. I’m driving from Shrewsbury to Inverness and back for one days work next week, installing operating theatre equipment with specialist kit so there’s no real way around it."</span>
It's 3 days work really, a day driving up, a day doing the installation and a day back down - did you bring the equipment with you, or just your tools?
FWIW my Son #2 does 50-60k PA, folk like you and him are the exception, the 1% - I'm happy for you lot to have opt-outs.
I did 400 miles yesterday, and over my lunch stop I could've fast charged enough to get me home - I'm not in an EV, but it'd probably only cost me 15 mins more if I was.
Del has it.
Even a brand new supermini is around £30k, some over some a bit under. Battery warranty looks like 8 years for most manufacturers. Write it off over 8 years? just under £4k/year, or what, £350 a month?
Range 150 in winter looks like market average, with 40-ish kWh battery, so for the small 3 pin plug is around 16 hours from zero to full.
What's the average commute - under 20 miles? That's a 40 mile round trip... which will needs about 4 hours on a billy basic 3 pin plug by my maths. Entry level chargepoint, more like 2 hours.
That's pretty much 99% of personal journeys covered.
For those who don't have off street parking to charge, I'd suggest that "remote" charging facilities would need to be within the same walking distance as what your nearest bus stop should be. Without getting into the argument of current bus service provision, in new build estates the max walk distance from a dwelling to a bus stop should be 400m. Even if that were possible in existing residential areas, you'd then get into the battle, both socially and financially of do you put a charging station or housing on it?
And of course this requires people to be socially responsible to plug only when they need it and not top up every night when you only do 10 miles/day and to unplug promptly when they have filled the battery to give others a chance.
And that’s relevant for what reason?
Because for a lot of people that will be too much, so they will vote for politicians who tell them they won't have to do that.
That’s pretty much 99% of personal journeys covered.
But people will still want to do the 1% of journeys where they have to go further. For someone like me that's visiting relatives, going somewhere nice for the weekend or a random day trip to the lakes or somewhere similar to go riding. Good luck to any politician who tries to tell people that those 1% of journeys are going to be much more difficult and inconvenient than they currently are.
Because for a lot of people that will be too much, so they will vote for politicians who tell them they won’t have to do that.
No they won't. If Labour get in with a big majority they can bring back the 2030 plan by quickly doing a press event similar to Sunaks one the other day. If people don't like it, tough as Labour will be in until 2030 so they can't vote any other way can they.
If they care so much about that one thing I guess the tories will be pulling an unexpected win in next election.
People are not going to do these things all by themselves and rely on infrastructure and prodding from the government.
"<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">But people will still want to do the 1% of journeys where they have to go further. For someone like me that’s visiting relatives, going somewhere nice for the weekend or a random day trip to the lakes or somewhere similar to go riding. Good luck to any politician who tries to tell people that those 1% of journeys are going to be much more difficult and inconvenient than they currently are."</span>
I've news for you, they already are and have been getting more difficult for years.
In the late 80's/90's and early 00's I use to reckon on been able to maintain a +70mph average on long journeys (fast car, less traffic, only mobile cameras to worry about and used a radar detector), now it's near 55mph - and I was doing +40k pa in those days, so this wasn't a 1% issue, but my everyday.
So your 1 long trip a year takes you 30 mins longer, get a grip.
Good luck to any politician who tries to tell people that those 1% of journeys are going to be much more difficult and inconvenient than they currently are
Why would they? I mean they wouldn’t be much more difficult or inconvenient.
they will vote for politicians who tell them they won’t have to do that
Yeah, you're right. Let's just forget the whole thing and carry on partying like it's 1999 🙄
I’ve done 10k miles since 21st July for work so ev’s for me will be bloody hard to implement. I’m driving from Shrewsbury to Inverness and back for one days work next week, installing operating theatre equipment with specialist kit so there’s no real way around it.
Should be easier for you, I’d argue. With that amount of time on the road you’ll presumably be needing to stop and eat two or three meals? That’s close to an hour and a half of charging opportunity, more if you’re also stopping for a rest and to have a pee.
At Rugby services I can plug the car in and by the time I’ve got back to it 15 minutes later I’ve got another 200 miles range.
If Labour get in with a big majority they can bring back the 2030 plan by quickly doing a press event similar to Sunaks one the other day.
How much are you willing to bet that Starmer will do that? He'll say all the right things now about how terrible the tories are and how damaging to the net zero effort pushing back the deadline is, and then he'll quietly accept it on the grounds that there are higher priorities. Sunak has probably done him a favour.
If they care so much about that one thing I guess the tories will be pulling an unexpected win in next election.
It won't win the tories the election, but it could save them a lot of seats, especially in the red wall. Perhaps even enough to deny labour a working majority.
Yeah, you’re right. Let’s just forget the whole thing and carry on partying like it’s 1999 🙄
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who wants ICE cars to carry on forever. I want the transition to happen asap, but the reality is that the things that need to happen to achieve it are not happening, and the result will be a lot of ball-ache and extra costs for those who can least afford it.
so there’s no real way around it.
You could stay overnight. Are seriously driving for 8 or so hours, working say 8 then driving back another 8 hours?
The other week I was on holiday in Norfolk, did well over 10 hours of driving from the west midlands and back in all, spent 20 minutes charging once in the whole week while we had a comfort break, we had 3 times as many stops for food or a rest as we did charging and I don't even have a big battery car just the short range MG4. Those that complain about EVs being unusable either don't have one, are looking for something to complain about or are a bit thick, the rest of us will just get on with it.
Those that complain about EVs being unusable either don’t have one, are looking for something to complain about or are a bit thick
And here comes the snobbery. Look at all those plebs with their dirty polluting cars! Seriously if that's going to be how this pans out then you can kiss net-zero goodbye. 🙄
I'm not being snobby, I've been using EVs for years, with the latest one I'm getting caught out having to plan rest stops like I did with a petrol car charging is so infrequent. It's people that don't have any experience of them that are the one's that are always going on about how useless they are.
I’m not being snobby
are looking for something to complain about or are a bit thick
No, not at all. 🙄
You might want to cast your mind back a few years and remind yourself what happened the last time millions of people felt like they weren't being listened to.
I take it your putting yourself in the thick camp then?
Seriously it's like those articles you see in the paper, I tried to drive from x to y in my EV and it was a nightmare, you'd have to either set out to make the journey that bad or be so stupid you'd even run out of petrol.
And yes I'm being antagonistic about this because I f**ing fed up of the anti EV bollocks I hear all the time.
You might want to cast your mind back a few years and remind yourself what happened the last time millions of people felt like they weren’t being listened to.
Ah yes. When the public were mislead by a government, a racist and all helped by lies. Similar to a current government telling lies about their green drive and the misconceptions that owning an EV is problematic.
And here comes the snobbery
Did you not read the bit where he said he has a short range MG4 😉😁
How much are you willing to bet that Starmer will do that?
Not a lot because he is a bit of a tory **** and why I vote Green rather than Labour but the point is still there. If Sunak had not suddenly pulled his crappy stunt this week it could well have gone into next election untouched. What car people can buy in 2030 is really not a big enough deal in people lives to sway their vote.
What car people can buy in 2030 is really not a big enough deal in people lives to sway their vote.
Plenty of pensioner age anti EV types who believe they need another ICE car in 10 years time, I'll wager.
I'm only surprised the 2035 announcement did not coincide with some matching 'British cars for British people made from British steel' announcement where the government promise to convert some no-longer-viable frozen fish warehouse into a world beating ICE car production plant by next year, or some such bollocks.
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who wants ICE cars to carry on forever. I want the transition to happen asap
More new EVs sold now feeds in to the second hand market later making EVs affordable for pretty much everyone that could afford a second hand ice car now. And you've got the nerve to tell others they've got a poor understanding of economics? Right-o.
And yes I’m being antagonistic about this because I f**ing fed up of the anti EV bollocks I hear all the time.
There's no need because I'm very pro-EV. I just want the transition to be done in a way which working people will support. Telling them they're thick isn't going to achieve that.
When the public were mislead by a government, a racist and all helped by lies.
So this being the case do you think transitioning to EVs will be made easier by listening to and helping working people to make the change, or by telling them they're thick and stupid to be worried about it?
I’ve not heard any politician say that.
I'll throw in the REAL solution. EV is not it. Hydrogen is really the answer. Time to stop dicking about.
But won't happen in my lifetime in Britain because there is ****all long term planning for anything. Energy. Transport. Health. Education. Water supply. Etc. Etc etc. Its all short term and quick buck. We have not had any meaningful energy strategy since the late 1970s / early 80s when the CEGB was broken up. By pure chance, heavy industry use declined in line with capacity decline. But that's by chance only. The dash for gas was short term quick buck madness then, and is even more so now.
The REAL solution is lots of renewable, lots of new nuclear. And remove dependency on countries we fundamentally can't trust. Use that to generate electricity, then use hydrogen for Transport and energy storage, making it when the electricity demand is lower like in summer, night time, etc (isn't it barking mad that wind turbines are stopped at night as there's no use for the electricity produced and no meaningful storage methods).
I’ve not heard any politician say that.
Neither have I thankfully but some on this thread seem to think that's the way forward. All I'm saying is that the tories are trying to turn the EV/net-zero issue into another brexit-type scenario where people vote with their emotions and instincts rather than with their heads. If accepting the extension of the ICE deadline by a few years helps to avoid that then that's no big deal in my book. The ICE deadline isn't a hill that's worth dying on.
With hydrogen for transport generated from electricity you'll need a lot more generation capacity. Battery EVs have about 20% losses associated with charging and discharging whilst hydrogen vehicles about 60% losses. You need roughly half as many power stations again to run a hydrogen transport system than a battery system.
A hydrogen transport system isn't going to happen:
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=1bf1cbf0-ac2f-4b39-a3de-2df77a9a515e
Edit: Unfortunately the link to the article doesn't get the full article, just Google "hydrogen versus battery efficiency transport"
"<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">I’ll throw in the REAL solution. EV is not it. Hydrogen is really the answer. Time to stop dicking about."</span>
If we'd never moved to petrol & diesel at the start of the last century and just continued with electric cars can you imagine trying to sell the idea that hydrogen was the answer...
What is your problem with having a vehicle that can be literally charged from almost any building/property/site in the UK (and beyond)?
What is your problem with having a vehicle that can be literally charged from almost any building/property/site in the UK (and beyond)?
Another (probably small) issue here is the problem of reimbursement of funds if you charge your EV with someone else's power outlets. That's going to require a lot of retrofitting of smart meters etc unless we're working on the assumption that home/building owners won't have a problem with visitors using their power supply to charge their cars?
Hydrogen is really the answer
It absolutely isn’t, unless you've found a way round the laws of thermodynamics.
"<span style="background-color: #eeeeee; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">Another (probably small) issue here is the problem of reimbursement of funds if you charge your EV with someone else’s power outlets. That’s going to require a lot of retrofitting of smart meters etc unless we’re working on the assumption that home/building owners won’t have a problem with visitors using their power supply to charge their cars?"</span>
Our electric infrastructure is yet another Govt (ideological) failure.
When electricity was been rolled out across the UK before & after the war did you know that literally every house was offered power installed for the same standard price, no matter where they were, or how many poles it took, or cable to get there - even streams/rivers to be crossed.
Yet now it seems we're incapable of even installing car chargers/meters in your average street.
Yet now it seems we’re incapable of even installing car chargers/meters in your average street.
We're capable of it, but no one wants to pay for it. This is what happens when you leave things to the market. I don't think the govt (and probably labour too) were ever serious about the 2030 deadline and always knew it would be binned when the reality of EV transition hit home. It's just happened early due to a desperate PM clutching at whatever straws he can to win some votes. Maybe I'll be wrong but as the number of EVs grows the more we'll see it all falling apart. It's got the potential to be a massive political problem for the govt of the day in a few years.
Why can’t we all have hoverboards to get around on?
Back To The future definitely promised hoverboards
I blame the Tories
</pedantry>
And where is Mr Fusion?
EV infrastructure has been going in at an amazing rate this year, whole rows of high power chargers at services, charging hubs with up to 180 spaces, EV forecourts, chargers that are simpler to use, chargers with disabled access, there's tons of progress being made, as an EV driver it's been the most positive year so far really feels like it's picking up momentum. Norway are years ahead of us with EV take up and it seems to be going fine it would be very typically British to do something half arsed.
@binners 😂
Re: hydrogen we're planning to build a high temperature reactor at Hartlepool with the aim being hydrogen production (it's more efficient if you heat it up apparently). There's also the plan in Scotland to sink excess renewable energy into hydrogen production as well.
This is the crux of the issue. With a 2030 deadline we’ve got 10 years to install all the infrastructure for on-street charging. Can anyone seriously see that happening? The alternative is telling people who aren’t rich enough to have a driveway that they need to get the bus. Good luck with that.
So people who aren't rich enough to have driveways are going to be forced to buy new electric cars? Riiiiight.
FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME THERE WILL STILL BE A SECOND HAND ICE MARKET!
For someone who claims many positions you sure do have a funny way of showing them.
always takes a while for stuff to filter through into polls but ditching that wishy-washy green stuff appears to have gifted sunak net zero in the polls (fieldwork done since his announcement)
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1705297272617992301?t=hoEuah280LLQZOjPlKBAoQ&s=19
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1705214085351047635?t=PBLtUQKcUpwWDPYKN50jLA&s=19
I have to say the remarkable poll numbers have been remarkably stable for such remarkable poll numbers. It's quite remarkable.
You might want to cast your mind back a few years and remind yourself what happened the last time millions of people felt like they weren’t being listened to.
yep, they shot themselves in both feet. But unless Mark has been doing wonders with the STW circulation figures I don’t think expressing a view here will shift the needle on national elections much.
always takes a while for stuff to filter through into polls but ditching that wishy-washy green stuff appears to have gifted sunak net zero in the polls (fieldwork done since his announcement)
That is because he is just appealing to that 26% so he has thrown away half decent policies to appease people who would vote for him whatever he did because they will be voting tory.
This is what I was saying earlier, the policies could have been kept with no effect on voting or what the people want.
People are not good at thinking about actually being in the future (yes they understand you need a pension but they can't actually see themselves as a pensioner) so nobody was overly bothered about policies 10 years out.
1 year out they will start to be bother but too late then and some of the infrastructure will be in place as government and private companies would actually start to build it knowing there will be guaranteed demand for it.
I'm more concerned with what is likely to be the impact in the key marginal seats. Those overall numbers haven't changed much but there could be shifts in both directions netting as no change
Starmer's recent forays onto the European stage might move the dial with his support, and may even move some support in Tory strongholds, among the younger business owning type tory voter (ie not the pensioner vote). But in football terms, turning a 3-0 win into a 4-0 doesn't earn another point, nor does turning a 0-3 loss into a 1-3
And in the middle where it counts we're starting to see the media and 'commentators' like Farage starting to rev the engines about having Brexit taken away.
I know some on here feel it's the right thing to do and I welcome the moves in reality but I'm concerned that it's opening a new front at a time when everything the tories currently do blows another few toes off their own foot.
FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME THERE WILL STILL BE A SECOND HAND ICE MARKET!
Think you need to calm down mate.
I’ve already said used ICE prices will increase significantly when the supply is removed. The only way they’ll stay the same is if you also remove the demand, but by your own admission you’re saying the demand will still exist. It’s basic supply and demand economics.
a Grauniad poll suggesting about 22% support Sunaks move, so much for the Gbeebies silent majority.
There will be plenty of second hand EVs for people to buy.
People are not good at thinking about actually being in the future (yes they understand you need a pension but they can’t actually see themselves as a pensioner) so nobody was overly bothered about policies 10 years out.
1 year out they will start to be bother but too late then and some of the infrastructure will be in place as government and private companies would actually start to build it knowing there will be guaranteed demand for it.
As Illustrated by:
With a 2030 deadline we’ve got 10 years to install all the infrastructure for on-street charging. Can anyone seriously see that happening?
I absolutely can see it happening, seven years of ramped up infrastructure and manufacturing investment pitched at beating the rest of the world to the finish line, but we da actually have to try. I can't understand why Rishi isn't all over it he could have created policies that led to a nice feeding trough for more private sector chums.
Instead all that this week has demonstrated is the lack of a plan and/or any ambition, we're headed towards a small state that sets itself completely achievable goals and then moves the goalposts before they've even attempted to hit them. This is what you get with a Tory finance ****er in No.10, who knows he's got an uphill battle at the polls next year...
Won’t the EV thing just be like the offshore wind bid licenses though?
All businesses know this lot are done and this is just a death rattle, so they’ll just carry on making plans, knowing there will be a far more forward-looking regime in power next year, so there’s little point building future plans around these reactionary denialist loons?
I’m sure there’s been plenty of meetings going on with Labour and the car manufacturers/wind turbine makers etc to signal a more friendly environment than these nutters are presently talking about as they shore up their core vote to try and avoid electoral decimation
As ive stated before im very pro EV and Im personally involved with installing public charge points, bring it on but people able to charge at home will be better off than people forced to use public chargers, charging at home will always be cheaper because:
1. Way cheaper installation.
2. No overheads to pay for.
3. No profit margin to pay for.
4. Ability to use cheap off peak and low demand flexible tariffs.
5. Can top up using solar and battery.
All great for those of us who can charge from home and can afford the installtion costs, particularly the solar.
For those who cant charge from home it will be more expensive per kWh and they are more likely to have lower incomes, its basic maths, on top of the kWh unit price with public charging you have to pay for:
1. The charger, even basic ones are more expensive, our 'simple' ones still have a router, a heater, a payment terminal and other proprietary gubbins in there your home charger doesnt.
2. Installation costs are much higher, there are civils works, a home charger generally screws to a wall, public chargers are sat on the ground and require ducting to get the cable to them.
3. There are more overheads with a public charger, my wages as department head, my maintenance engineers, our office costs, payment processing fees, monthly coms fees for the router, back end integration software fees, our vans, tools, replacement parts (public chargers break more frequently because the public use them).
4. Profit margin, were not a charity and usually the car park owner wants a cut as well.
5. You charge when you can or need to, not necessarily at 3am when demand is low and its windy, dont think public chargers have even considered dynamic pricing.
Hydrogen is coming, its part of the answer, Mercedes have a hydrogen fuel cell artic coming out in 2027 but its not alternative to solar for domestic use. It uses way more electricity to create per kWh of output and still needs to have an expensive manufacturing and distribution network built.
Yes ICE vehicles will still be around after the ban be it 2030 or 2035 but they will quickly disappear, manufacturers are already reducing the number of ICE vehicles they are making, restricting the ranges and engine types. Secondhand ICE prices will increase because demand will still be there but the pool of them will reduce. I reckon by 2040 owning an ICE vehicle will be quite difficult, lots of petrol stations will be gone, fuel prices will be up (less sales to cover the overhead) generic parts for engines will be more difficult find and will be more expensive. Ulez zones, higher taxes, increased insurance will all make ICE ownership.
Rishi's decision was pragmatic on the one hand, we will not be ready for full EV in 2030, it also plays well with the gammons. However our inability to hit 2030 is purely down to him and his partys failure to prepare.
I don’t think you understand basic economics. In 2030 the demand for ICE cars will still exist
It’s basic supply and demand economics.
You keep on trotting out this "basic economics" line but you're dodging basic economic questions, like:
Is the demand for ICE cars or just for cars? Cross-elasticity of demand between fossil fuel cars and other fuelled cars would be strongly positive, wouldn’t it, as they’re highly substitutable, surely?
There will be plenty of second hand EVs for people to buy.
Which you’re assuming will have the same demand and be at similar prices to current used ice cars. I guess we’ll have to see what happens as no one really knows. 🤷♂️