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I'm sure others have similar experiences; and I'm sure others have had bad experiences by adopting a wider road position - but I thought I would at least explain my reasoning (do I get extra marks for showing my working out ? :D)
You do 😀
I think the simple answer is there is not a one size fits all position in the road.
If I'm reasonably confident that the vehicles behind are probably aware of my presence, then I also ride out in the manner you've suggested for the same reasons. So yes, in general I move out if I need to control a situation.
However, I can think of a couple of times when I've been on a fast straight open A roads, and cars have brushed past so close (i.e. wing mirror clipping me) with no hint of change of road position, that I'm pretty confident that the driver just wasn't looking out of the windscreen at the time.
Had I adopted the middle of the road as the default position in those occurrences, I'm pretty certain I'd have been smashed to bits.
[i]*considers moving IanMunro to Undecided*[/i]
I think you need to rename the categories Black, White and Grey.
Move me to the Grey, then start a debate on which viewpoint is Black and which is White 🙂
I've always been of the belief that a driver is [i]more[/i] likely to see you the further our in the road you are. In addition ( think the point has already been made above?), if it's a queue of following vehicles, anyone behind the first vehicle is going to come across you very suddenly and unexpectedly if the first vehicle isn't forced to slow down/indicate.IanMunro - Member
Had I adopted the middle of the road as the default position in those occurrences, I'm pretty certain I'd have been smashed to bits.
Incidentally, a few people have mentioned only moving into the primary when you need to control the situation, for example when approaching a turn.
In the vid they are approaching a roundabout, so isn't that a good reason to take control?
if it's a queue of following vehicles, anyone behind the first vehicle is going to come across you very suddenly and unexpectedly if the first vehicle isn't forced to slow down/indicate.
Yeah I agree. Queues would be in my "If I'm reasonably confident that the vehicles behind are probably aware of my presence" category.
Move me to the Grey
I think [i][u]most[/u][/i] people would be sensible enough to agree you can't make absolute statements. 🙂 If it helps then just offer your opinion on riding two-abreast on that particular stretch of road and traffic conditions.
druidh: shall I put you down as a FOR?
One argument appears to be that in moving to the right you then are not in the driver's peripheral vision
So if you are "in the gutter" - 50cm out...then move to say 2m out in a 4m wide lane...and a car driver's eyes are say 6m behind you...
The angle you would previously been at to him was < 15 degrees, that's 2.5 minutes on a clock face.
Is anyone seriously arguing that that is in a driver's peripheral vision? Seems to me to be a load of bunkum created to shore up the roadcraft argument (which I don't entirely disagree with, I just don't think it has to apply quite as universally as others do).
Yes that helps enormously Graham, just watched it again, keep me in the against 🙂
im all for riding 2up on a dual. i avoid them like the plague but if i have to go down one ill always pull alongside my mate to make cars act in a safe and legal manner.
Remember this is a 30 mph limit road, there are SLOW signs on the road. Its not that busy
Okay, IanMunro remains Against. New For vote from jonah tonto.
[u][b]Totals: 28 FOR, 26 AGAINST, 19 UNDECIDED.[/b][/u]
cync-al: well the non-peripheral (foveal) vision bit really isn't very wide.
But I think it is also about just making them think: a lot of drivers are on auto-pilot and most drivers are simply not looking for cyclists "shapes", they are looking car shapes.
A non-car shape off to the side, not in the path of their car, may be blissfully ignored - but two non-car shapes directly in their path requires some thought and action.
Riding two abreast is only safer if the drivers see you...
al - it might not be much difference, but you have to consider what you're being seen "against" and where a driver is most likely to be looking.
I'd argue that there is more road clutter nearer the gutter and you could easily blend in to this. In the middle of the road, you have less to blend in with. Of course, some of this is down to clothing choice / time of day.
Rightly or wrongly, most drivers are going to be looking ahead of them more than to the left. This is just because most "traffic" is going to be seen in that position.
FWIW, I wouldn't have been riding two-abreast, chatting, at that speed, on that dual carriageway, but I would have been riding in the Primary position.
GrahamS - I think that means I'm a FOR, but not always!
Riding two abreast is only safer if the drivers see you...
Granted, but how likely is that?
Two of you riding down the middle of the road is pretty obvious. If the driver is so blind or distracted that he/she doesn't see you both then isn't he/she even more likely to not see someone at the side of the road and swipe them as they go past?
druidh: new vote, duly noted.
[u][b]Totals: 29 FOR, 26 AGAINST, 19 UNDECIDED.[/b][/u]
I don't think the approaching roundabout bit holds water - they are easily 300 yards away when van passes them, it would take them quite a while to get there at that speed.
Against
FAir points druidh and Graham - it was just the "peripheral vision" crap that bugged me.
BTW I am not against, prob undecided/lost the will.
al moved to Undecided, new vote Against from stgeorge:
[u][b]Totals: 29 FOR, 26 AGAINST, 20 UNDECIDED.[/b][/u]
I don't think the approaching roundabout bit holds water - they are easily 300 yards away when van passes them, it would take them quite a while to get there at that speed.
But if they wait till they get to the roundabout before taking the primary then it could be too late and they'll be stuck at the kerb.
I struggle with long sentences but put me down in the For camp please graham. I mostly only ever ride on my own but on multilane roads I tend to stick in the centre of the lane anyway and since adopting this tactic 2 things have become very apparent. Number of people shouting at me has risen dramatically number of people nearly hitting me has dropped even more dramatically. Might not be popular but it is safer . (IME, YMMV etc)
Duly noted D0NK. And I agree: safety above "being considerate"
[u][b]Totals: 30 FOR, 26 AGAINST, 20 UNDECIDED.[/b][/u]
But if they wait till they get to the roundabout before taking the primary then it could be too late and they'll be stuck at the kerb.
Its not a busy road, there's plenty of time.
If the driver is so blind or distracted that he/she doesn't see you both then isn't he/she even more likely to not see someone at the side of the road and swipe them as they go past?
If you are at the side of the road on MOST roads they can drive by and still miss you.
It's true that most people will see you, but I don't trust every driver that much.
when i was my club road captain, i contacted the ministry of transport regarding this very issue, they said riding 2 up isallowed but not on busy roads, i asked for a definition of a busy road and they replied it was down to the road users judgement!
FWIW, I wouldn't have been riding two-abreast, chatting, at that speed, on that dual carriageway, but I would have been riding in the Primary position.
So does that mean your in the against camp?
BTW What's the question again?, I've forgotten 🙂
😳IanMunro - Member
> FWIW, I wouldn't have been riding two-abreast, chatting,
> at that speed, on that dual carriageway, but I would
> have been riding in the Primary position.
So does that mean your in the against camp?
Is it possible it's not black-and-white?
😛IanMunro - MemberBTW What's the question again?, I've forgotten
Its not a busy road, there's plenty of time.
True and they do seem to be pootling a bit, but I'd say that around 30 seconds into that video I would definitely be looking to take the primary for the roundabout if I wasn't there already.
If you are at the side of the road on MOST roads they can drive by and still miss you.
Only if you're riding in close at the kerb/gutter (which means you are negotiating drains, cracks and debris). If you're riding 50cm out (+ ~40cm for your bars/elbow/arse) then surely you're wide enough to get clipped by cars that don't take action?
It's true that most people will see you, but I don't trust every driver that much.
Fair enough. That's the main reason I try to avoid riding on roads at all.
if we are tallying up then i'm for.
I deliberately avoided my view to make a point, which i think has been made.
If you are at the side of the road on MOST roads they can drive by and still miss you.It's true that most people will see you, but I don't trust every driver that much.
so you trust MOST of them to miss you if they have not seen you but not to see 2 of you in the middle of the road - this is TJ levels of obstinacy 😉
Its not a busy road, there's plenty of time.
so they were not holding anyone up and it was easy to get round then 😯
Number of people shouting at me has risen dramatically number of people nearly hitting me has dropped even more dramatically. Might not be popular but it is safer
THIS you have no choice sadly if you wish to reduce your chances of being hit
thomthumb moved from Undecided to For.
[b][u]Totals: 31 FOR, 26 AGAINST, 19 UNDECIDED.[/u][/b]
Number of people shouting at me has risen dramatically
I suppose at least if they are shouting you know that they saw you!
I wonder if these people also shout at tractors, bin lorries, road sweepers, horses, mopeds, old people and hearses?
Was TJ's argument that riding two abreast on that road doesn't cause anymore inconvenience to drivers than a single cyclist, because in either case a car would have to use some of the overtaking lane?
If that was the gist of it, put me down as a FOR.
thegreatape moves from Undecided to For.
Scores on the doors are now:
[u][b]Totals: 32 FOR, 26 AGAINST, 18 UNDECIDED.[/b][/u]
I would say yes two abreast is prob safer. Being harangued by a nob in a white van is less of a PITA than him mowing you down.
on multilane roads I tend to stick in the centre of the lane anyway and since adopting this tactic 2 things have become very apparent. Number of people shouting at me has risen dramatically number of people nearly hitting me has dropped even more dramatically. Might not be popular but it is safer .
This is the important point. Most people in the against camp seem to be there in order to avoid upsetting drivers. All of the for camp are there because of road safety.
Its not a busy road
In which case there's no need whatsoever for them to single out.
But.. if you are in the middle of the lane and someone is not watching at all, they would plough straight into you..?
I ride at the side because I think it keeps drivers happier AND it's safer.
Most people in the against camp seem to be there in order to avoid upsetting drivers. All of the for camp are there because of road safety.
Or the former have a different perspective on what makes things safe to the latter.
Like helmets init 🙂
Mind you, at least with the helmet debates, there's plenty of research evidence to present and rubbish.
There is a small amount of evidence that's been published that the further you cycle away from the curb the closer vehicles overtake you, but I wouldn't present it as an argument to support any case though.
doc: new vote noted:
[u][b]Totals: 33 FOR, 26 AGAINST, 18 UNDECIDED.[/b][/u]
But.. if you are in the middle of the lane and someone is not watching at all, they would plough straight into you..?
How often does that actually happen though?
I think it is probably a fear of most road cyclists, especially when you hear a big engine behind you, but I suspect it is actually a very rare event in situations like that video: a straight urban 30mph dual carriageway with good viz and two riders sitting in the middle of the lane.
And as I said, you'd presumably take the primary for negotiating the roundabout anyway, no?
if you are in the middle of the lane and someone is not watching at all, they would plough straight into you..?
why are you so certain this inattentive driver who cannot see someone in th eroad wont just drift into the kerb and plough you down.
Show and tell Ian, would be interested in reading. Does it apply to multi lanes aswell? My own statistically insignificant experience says if I ride in the gutter and >90% of drivers will stay in the same lane as me as they overtake. Ride in the middle and <10% attempt to stay in the same lane ie move so far right that 3/4ers of their "footprint" is in the next lane but won't give up their tenuous grip on my lane.
interesting mutilane related [url= http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/dual-carriageways-and-how-cyclists-get-hit-on-them/ ]blogging[/url]
This is the important point. Most people in the against camp seem to be there in order to avoid upsetting drivers. All of the for camp are there because of road safety.
No, most of the "for" camp are there cos they know it's someone's right to cycle two abreast. They'll defend that right even if it means being unnecessarily selfish.
Being considerate (and assertive) on the road is the safest and most socially positive way to travel.
@Graham S: This is FeeFoo's twin brother so put down another one for the "Against" 8)
Inevitably
FTFYBeing assertive (and considerate) on the road is the safest and most socially positive way to travel.
And as I said, you'd presumably take the primary for negotiating the roundabout anyway, no?
No, not at that distance.
If you were turning right at that roundabout would you be in the right hand lane at that distance/speed?
I wouldn't.
Show and tell Ian, would be interested in reading. Does it apply to multi lanes aswell
[url] http://drianwalker.com/overtaking/ [/url]
Sorry, don't know about multi lanes. It's far from comprehensive from the perspective of this particular thread, which is why I wouldn't really cite it as evidence in relation to personal safety, but it's still quite interesting in general.
Stick me in AGAINST cat .
Just because a book says its ok does not make it right , or safe.
Seen the headlines* form that before didn't read the rest 😳
*helmt = closer overtake
why are you so certain this inattentive driver who cannot see someone in th eroad wont just drift into the kerb and plough you down.
Just about to cycle home, so haven't thought this though. But assuming that an inattentive driver will drift in the kerb, then I'd assume (in most cases) that some time has elapsed between loosing attention and ploughing into the curb. I.e they spend more time in the middle of the road not paying attention then when they hit the curb and crash - which is pretty much a smaller time-frame (at a guess).