[Closed] richard dawkins; faith school menace

So taken to extremes ....

Why do you have to take things to extremes GrahamS ? ...... tell me

As a card carrying atheist I think learning about religion is a vital part of children's education. Learning about religion isn't the same as indoctrination. Religion is a cultural / political thing, faith is something else. Religion has played a large part in the cultural and political history of our country and our legal and moral framework is a result of that, so understanding that is important

However, even as a fan of genetics and evolution, in my day to day life and work its totally irrelevant, as would be a believe in intelligent design. Science is much the same as religion in this respect - you don't need to believe in it in order to understand how it works. For anyone other than evolutionary biologists and theological students its only interesting but nothing more important than interesting.

Ernestovich, are you really arguing that the opium of the people be given to children without any thought or check?

Lenin will be like a kebab!

did you have to start this I've got an add for something god video lurking in the box where there should be wooden sheds - I don't really believe in wooden sheds they were the lesser of two evils

crikey,having grown up in Ireland and been schooled in a (lay) primary school, I can safely say that as kids, through a concentrated effort of Sunday Mass, a good hour of catechism everyday, prayers in the morning, Angelus at noon, prayers before going home, and then all this being reinforced by parents, that we believed every bit of it. Yeah, it started to dawn on me in my teens, but I went through a long period of agnosticism before deciding it was all bollocks in the end. There's a reason that people joke about catholic guilt...indoctrination runs deep when it starts at such an early age.

Well I see CFH is doing his usual ad hominem trick about people he doesn't agree with. Quite how you can say that

I find his obsessive and preachy brand of atheism just as terrifying as religious extremists.

“I would prefer to call it a free-thinking free school. I would never want to indoctrinate children in atheism, any more than in religion. Instead, children should be taught to ask for evidence, to be sceptical, critical, open-minded.”

Granted this is not what it was reported in the Telegraph among other places but we shouldn't let a silly thing like facts get in way.

+1 for skidartist. I was trying to work out how to say exactly that. Teaching religion(s) at school needs to be different from what would be taught at a church

Why do you have to take things to extremes
GrahamS ? ...... tell me

[i]Reductio ad absurdum[/i]

It demonstrates that what you said is patently untrue. You do care [i]to some degree[/i] what other people teach their kids, so all we are really arguing about is the suitable level of control over what they are taught.

I don't think you do reduce the argument to the absurd, because I don't believe those things doesn't mean I don't think parents have the right to send their kids to a school that teaches such things. I would question whether government money should be spent on them, but as no faith that teaches such beliefs is asking for government funding, that is an irrelevance too.

I find the whole thing fascinating...

I was brought up without religion, or as without religion as is possible in the UK over the last 40 odd years, and when I went to school I regarded it as a strange part of the whole education thing. My kids have been brought up the same way, not to be dismissive or insulting about religion, but to think of it as something that some people believe in.

I used to live 200 yards from a small C of E school, and when my daughter was born, I wandered down one day to see about her going there.

Basically, I was told that unless both me and my wife attended church for a certain minimum number of sundays, there was no chance of her getting in.

So my child can't attend the nearest school to our house, for primary education, because I don't go to church.

Time to view education as a means to prepare our children for life, rather than to fight a rearguard action to fill churches in the future with people who seem able to disregard the basic teachings of said religion...

Rich men entering heaven and camels passing through needles eyes.

Bollocks.

Ha ha Dawkins, hasn't he been married a few times?? Ostensibly a religious ceremony........

Religion has played a large part in the cultural and political history of our country and our legal and moral framework is a result of that, so understanding that is important

+1. It should only be taught in schools within this context. Nothing else.

I've said the Lords Prayer a few times, and been to quite a few funerals, and also say variants of Jesus ****ing Christ when I hit my thumb with a hammer. Social constructs like religion are quite pervasive, so would like to make your point more clearly?

I think Dawkins' point about morals is that they're memes rather than something for which we have to thank religion. If you take a lot of Jesus' teachings, they're more or less variants of the Golden Rule ie "Do unto others...", don't be overly judgmental, it's easier to love than to hate etc. These are all morals which the human race has evolved all over the planet, whatever beliefs they have or don't have. I think our children can be taught these things without the vehicle of faith schools to hammer the point home through fear or punishment in an afterlife.

crikey - Member

Ernestovich, are you really arguing that the opium of the people be given to children without any thought or check?

Lenin will be like a kebab!

How dare you question my Leninist credentials !!! 😀

Yeah, ironically I was thinking to myself "what a bunch of nasty Stalinists.......and I'm supposed to be the Tankie on here !" (a label which btw I proudly wear in the presence of Trots)

Yes I fully accept the concept of the "opium of the people". But this isn't the 1850s nor Tsarist Russia. I strongly believe that people should able to live their lives in whatever way they choose, as long as it isn't detrimental to me. And for example, a Jewish couple deciding they want to send their boy to a state funded Jewish school, does not in any way affect me. So I am perfectly prepared to defend their right to do so, against intolerant petty bigoted busybodies. hth

El-bent - Member
Religion has played a large part in the cultural and political history of our country and our legal and moral framework is a result of that, so understanding that is important
+1. It should only be taught in schools within this context. Nothing else.

No. I'd only say thats a +1/2
It should [s]only[/s] be taught in schools within this context. Not[s]hing[/s] [i]necessarily anything[/i] else

Understanding religion is important, understanding science is important, believing in either, neither or both is a personal preference. A school, whether religious or secular, can't make you believe in anything.

A school, whether religious or secular, can't make you believe in anything

I'd argue that a school can make a child young enough believe that black is white.

I used to live 200 yards from a small C of E school, and when my daughter was born, I wandered down one day to see about her going there.

Basically, I was told that unless both me and my wife attended church for a certain minimum number of sundays, there was no chance of her getting in.

So my child can't attend the nearest school to our house, for primary education, because I don't go to church.

I strongly believe such discrimination shouldn't be allowed in a modern society. And to think our taxes fund that school. 😕

As for Dawkins being as bad as religious extremists - bollox. Yes he's a bit shrill and annoying but come on...

I'd argue that a school can make a child young enough believe that black is white.

+1, children will believe most things they're taught or exposed to, be it god, father christmas, the tooth fairy etc etc. And like most things kids will figure it out for themselves as they grow.

A school, whether religious or secular, can't make you believe in anything.

I believe you...

it isn't detrimental to me.

Not quite understanding what religion does and what it's doing in schools there Ernie.

grum - but it is a deal, taxes fund some of the school, the land and buildings are owned by the church so they have the right to lay down an admissions policy in exchange for providing the land and building, you may not agree with it but it allowed the state to effectively get a school without building one. It is very easy to forget that the Church of England has been providing wide spread education for a lot longer than the state - although as the Queen is head of the Church of England it is part of the state.

grum - but it is a deal, taxes fund some of the school, the land and buildings are owned by the church so they have the right to lay down an admissions policy in exchange for providing the land and building, you may not agree with it but it allowed the state to effectively get a school without building one.

I'd quite happily pay more taxes so we didn't have to put up with this medieval bullshit. 😉

It's quite an issue where I live as most of the high schools are religious. I just don't understand why religions get to be exempt from normal anti-discrimination etc laws

Not quite understanding what religion does and what it's doing in schools there Ernie.

You see, that's my problem El-bent ............I never paid enough attention at school.

My entire education was 100% catholic.

You should know then that Catholic girls are best...or so I've heard. 😉

😐 Talking about my sister ?

A monkey should throw poo in his face.

mefty can I have a link to support your claim re schools I think the church may own the land but what is this formal deal you describe? They C of E just won the right to run a school near me beating the non denomination bid by the council so I think they have to buy the land to build the school but never heard of your deal before.
I think religion should be let in the home.
If people want to bring up their children [indoctrinate if you prefer] in a religion that is their business but I dont want to fund this under the oxymoron of education.
Religous schools have interesting policies on sex education,evolution, genesis, star formation and aids with very little [ I am being poilite they are wrong ] evidence and we pay them to deliver this .
You can choose to send you child to the nearest religous school [of you faith]to you if you are a non believer you cannot choose to send them to the nearest non religous school you go to the nearest even if it is religous. Not all equal under law sadly

does anyone think that anyone actually believes the stuff that comes out in RE lessons or even assemblies?

Firstly parents who want their children to taught RE pay their taxes just like anyone else, and therefore are entitled to have an input in deciding what is taught to their children.

Meanwhile, the churches are empty. Perhaps the 'believers' would be better off all round by their kids learning in a place of learning and worshipping in a place of worship?

Learning about religion isn't the same as indoctrination.

There's a reason that people joke about catholic guilt...indoctrination runs deep when it starts at such an early age.

hasn't he been married a few times?? Ostensibly a religious ceremony

gripping stuff guys; really it is.

Is woppit unwell?

Well maybe it's testiment to my personality but i love Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris/Davies All of the athiest so called 'Preachers' i'd rather listen to. The only other person i like listening to is the Archbishop of Canterbury, what a guy.

Crickey + 1

The problem i found with RE in schools was there was no argument against it during lesson. No debate, just straight telling me how it is, granted it was a christian boarding school but asoon as i started philosophy in the 5th form it had both sides of the argument. Much more inspiring and informative.

Understanding religion is important, understanding science is important, believing in either, neither or both is a personal preference.

I'm sorry, believing in science? What part of science education did you miss? The scientific method removes the need for belief, what with all that empirical evidence.

Empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment. That's what i believe. But then again without initial untested theories we wouldn't have proof. Still waiting for proof of god though after all these years. Waiting....Still Waiting. Anybody. Anbody got anything? a Sandiwich made by god? Maybe Jesus knitted you a nice jumper with a picture of himself on the front. no? oh right.....back the drawing board then.

Dawkins is religious about his atheism in the same way that anyone who follows one of the main religions is.

Yes, but he doesn't ask for special privilege; threaten others with death and dismemberment for not believing; nor prescribe doctrine from a 2000 year (or older) book written by some people high on whatever was smoked back then.

I have no objection to people who point out that we can never know how the universe came about (unless we duplicate it), but believing it was created especially for them by some bloke in a beard who LISTENS TO THEIR THOUGHTS is stupidity and arrogance on a mind-boggling level.

It really is - this shouldn't even be touched upon in schools, and teaching kids about other "faiths" is a pointless waste of time. Children, if brought up appropriately, should respect people's eccentricities anyway. They don't need to know all the bollocks about it in the name of inclusiveness and cultural understanding. Much, much, more useful things could be done in that time - even something as boring as volunteering in the local community. Now *that* would be useful - 3200 schools * 1500 students * 2 hours a week...

And don't get me started on parents who indoctrinate their children in the way of their cult. Baptism / circumcision / other bollocks etc. Your child is no more a member of your religion than they are a member of the postal workers union. Wait until they're 16, give them a copy of the book, and ask them to make their own mind up.

As you might have gathered from this rant, I have no objection to religion per se. I, however, can't stand the idea that we're supposed to respect these views in public and appropriate special treatment, nor that people who haven't got the capacity to understand them are indoctrinated into them.

May God go with you.

Is woppit unwell?

Should have an automatic post if Woppit hasn't responded to a thread about religion within a few minutes of it starting.

[b]'Mr Woppit is Unwell'.[/b]

I believe, Elfin, that we should recommence the church of the nicest bottom and once more worship at the altar of the sacred Kylie.
Oh, and Bontybuns, this - "Well maybe it's testiment to my personality but i love Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris/Davies" is slightly odd.

I went to a Catholic School and I am going to heaven. The rest of you heathens will most probably go to hell. Dawkins will be at the top of Satan's list for the red hot poker treatment.

this shouldn't even be touched upon in schools

Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, it's of interest for historical reasons surely? By that argument, we might as well stop teaching History (which would have made me happy at school, but anyway).

I'm of the opinion that a grown adult who still has an invisible friend needs psychiatric help, and reject the idea that we should provide automatic "respect" to people with loony ideas. However, the fact remains that there are a lot of religious people in the world. Does RE not have a place in helping us to understand why, perhaps?

[i]Does RE not have a place in helping us to understand why, perhaps? [/i]

I agree with that, religion is actually a fascinating subject leading on to all sorts of topics like the human psyche (most civilisations in recorded history have some form of religious beliefs) and the subject itself is a huge part of history - everything from literature to art to war so it deserves study in that respect.

What I don't agree with is religion being taught as fact and it certainly shouldn't be anywhere near the science curriculum.

I had to sing bloody bible songs in school when I'd rather be doing math!
Parents should have choice to exclude their children from religous classes and assembly.

I like Dawkins. 😛

It would be more use to teach philosophy IMO. The I find the whole religion atheism fascinating, especially the philosophical arguements that go along with it. It would probably allow people to make their own decisions.

Dawkins is a bit of a ranter. What he says is often well thought out and logical, but the way he says it is often taken to be quite aggressive.

I don't think faith schools are a menace. They should be encouraged to teach general RE as well as specific if purely from a cultural point of view so that they can understand where other people are coming from. Most religions preach tolerance and acceptance even if they don't practice it. I say this as some one who is from a catholic family, went to a catholic primary school and a christian secondary school* but still decided the whole lot was twaddle and am no atheist.

*interestingly as the school was private and very good academically there were a large number (25%) of Muslim pupils. The rules were explained on application. It is a christial school and you are expected to respect the rules and practices even if you don't believe them.

I cant help but think of 'beauty school dropout' from Grease when looking at the thread title. Hmmm, Dawkins in lycra leggings, now there's a thought...

[i]Dawkins is a bit of a ranter. What he says is often well thought out and logical, but the way he says it is often taken to be quite aggressive.[/i]

i thought dawkins was rather restrained and lucid on this show, certainly the least aggressive ive seen him

and when you see the stupidity of the science teacher who cant understand evolution you have to wonder

and issues like the gay adoption thing in the news at the moment are because of a catholic funded organistaion

Anyone come across the case of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Google it. Demonstrates very clearly the validity of teaching religion as fact...i.e none at all.

Personally, I feel very strongly that the world in general is in need of a moral compass by which to live. Far too many people have no moral grounding in their life at all nowadays.

I think many of the ills of society can be traced right back to that fact. The caving in to sexual desires, licencious behaviour, grasping after wealth, power and status at the exclusion of all morale teaching. The ungodly and vicious attacks on their neighbours. The pursuit of worldly pleasures to the exclusion of the development of the soul, disrespect for others, especially with regard to race, creed, religion, and sexuality all these things are directly attributable to that shortfall.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

So remind me again why are people sending their kids to these faith schools which represent all of the above and definately do not represent any form of right thinking moral example for anyone??

IMO the whole teaching of RE needs to be changed to an intensive joseph cambell session. shame he died, he'd be a better ambassador for atheism than dawkins.... (if i could i'd have carl sagan pitch up to the party too)

i like dawkins, shame he comes across as a bit preachy... but anyone making a point will come across as preachy! i see the whole atheism movement as a pretty important step in the human races development at the moment, i prefer the Humanist movement though and hopefully this will prevail.

the biggest problem atheism has at the moment i think, is people who call others stupid for having different beliefs, a lot of young athiests (especially online) are very quick to tear into anyone religous and this creates a bad impression of atheism, when i think it should just create a bad impression of the individuals who are dismissive of others.

to me religion is a cultures response to its surroundings and the limits of its scientific knowledge, as scientific knowledge has increased and global communication has made it very accesible, i think new generations are going to naturally be less attracted to religion.