Return to Office - WWSTWD?

Probably not much you can do other than a quiet word with your boss to scope out any flexibility: test the waters. Otherwise, it’s time to update your CV…

What does your contract state?

What does your contract say? Does it say "home based care of x"?

Where do I stand?

By the water cooler having a moan!? Sorry!

It really is down to what is in your contract though. If the ‘no-one ever goes into the office’ was only verbal I’m not sure what you could do other than look for another job.

There’s a reason they didn’t drop the massive overheads a London office would create.

Just keep quiet as they'll be other folk who've been there far longer than you , who are far more valuable/senior etc who've a similar issue with it - let them fight the battle, but, I would also have a Plan B...

Working from home is part of something called Flexible Working which is a legal right. If you want to work from home and are able to do so then submit a formal request (called a "statutory application"), your employer either has to let you or provide a valid reason why you cannot. These reasons are documented and "we don't want you to" isn't good enough.

It's nothing to do with whatever may or may not already be in your contract, and the US office can mandate what they like for their US employees because you don't work in the US.

Here you go.

https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working/print

"WWSTWD?" I'd probably just ignore it and carry on doing my job as usual, see if anyone actually cared sufficiently to make an issue of it. A four hour round trip three times a week for no practical reason other than "someone several thousand miles away said so" is an absolutely ludicrous proposition, bollocks to that for a game of soldiers.

If you want to work from home and are able to do so then submit a formal request, your employer either has to let you or provide a valid reason

And other than being written in some guidance somewhere - has this ever been successfully used by a fit healthy individual against an employer who has actively.mandated your return to work.

I've seen many folks fail in their attempts based around "family reasons" .the only successful attempts were folk either high risk or actively Ill folks.

I’ve seen many folks fail in their attempts based around “family reasons” .the only successful attempts were folk either high risk or actively Ill folks.

This is arse-backwards. They don't have to justify why they want to. The onus is on their employer to justify why they can't.

From the gov.uk link above,

Reasons for rejecting
Employers can reject an application for any of the following reasons:

extra costs that will damage the business
the work cannot be reorganised among other staff
people cannot be recruited to do the work
flexible working will affect quality and performance
the business will not be able to meet customer demand
there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
the business is planning changes to the workforce

This is arse-backwards. They don’t have to justify why they want to. The onus is on their employer to justify why they can’t.

For anyone that's mandated you back into the office that is so laughably easy* I can see why it fails magnificently.

* Assuming their HR can read and follow guidance .... Not always a given.

But anyway.

I'd start with .

When you hired me you were fully aware i lived xxxx away and I'm not moving.

How do you propose we sort this? Clearly coming to the office on a regular basis from this distance without good reason is a waste of time /money and an enviromental disaster in a time when we should be cutting unneccesary journeys- it's quite probably at odds with your ESG policy (if you have one)

Pre pandemic I was office based. During and post pandemic I was told to work from home and it was going to stay that way, so I invested in a good chair and office setup. Gradually it started being asked to go in 1 day per week and more recently 2 times, but actually being hinted you should be there more.

Ive actually just started a new job sold as home working , and they do have no office space, but I do need to read my new contract and see what it states

I feel for you OP, but unless you have been there 2yrs prob not a leg to stand on, and what ever happens, if that’s what they want, that’s what they will get

For anyone that’s mandated you back into the office that is so laughably easy I can see why it fails magnificently.

Which one of the only acceptable reasons I just listed would you say is the laughably easy one? (I appreciate we probably just crossed posts there.)

extra costs that will damage the business - WFH likely saves the business money.
the work cannot be reorganised among other staff - not relevant to a WFH request.
people cannot be recruited to do the work - not relevant to a WFH request.
flexible working will affect quality and performance - the OP has been demonstrating their performance for months.
the business will not be able to meet customer demand - not relevant to a WFH request.
there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times - not relevant to a WFH request.
the business is planning changes to the workforce - not relevant to a WFH request.

Really the only one that has any bearing is the "quality and performance" one. Some jobs obviously can't be done from home because there is a practical or physical element, for instance.

Glad you took the time to talk me through the board as if it was misunderstood.

You seem to have applied your business role to alot of them. There's a few you have ruled out that I could quite easily count in in various other industry's so I can understand why you don't see it an easy rebuttal.

Unless you are a lone worker with no reports and no project based team work there are justifiable(albe it bullshit) reasons for not having you work at home that fall under a few of those lines.

As I said at the start by the letter of the gov guidance your right. Back in the real world you'll find it considerably harder to get your WFH dream after the management have mandated you back.

But anyway.

I’d start with .

I'd start with "I live two hours away, you must be ****ing joking."

I'd probably continue with "I'm happy to do it if you pay me the 50 hours overtime I'll be doing each month plus travel expenses."

I'd probably close with "what happens in the London office closes, will I be expected to be in the San Francisco office three times a week?"

Something else has just hit me. But that's another post.

I’d start with “I live two hours away, you must be **** joking.”

I've seen that play out twice they no longer work for their respective company* hence the framing of you knew where I lived when you hired me

*They both moved during lockdown in the fairy land dream that they thought this WFH would last for ever. One from Aberdeen to Thurso and the other from Aviemore to Stranraer

From a tax point of view (and possibly contractually, I'm not sure?) your regular place of work is defined where you are most often. So if you're in the office three times a week you are ispo facto office based. If you're in the office twice a week, you're still home based. Amongst other things, this stops people playing silly bastards by deciding they're based miles away and then claiming inflated travel expenses.

You seem to have applied your business role to alot of them. There’s a few you have ruled out that I could quite easily count in in various other industry’s so I can understand why you don’t see it an easy rebuttal.

Fair perhaps. But - to my interpretation at any rate - most of those are aimed at people wanting things like reduced hours.

Regardless. The point is that if the business is going to reject a formal request then they are legally obliged to justify that decision. How easy or difficult that may be would I suppose be situational, yes. 's not really relevant here until that's happened.

Slight tweak to @cougars original reply.

"Working from home is part of something called Flexible Working which is a legal right."

It is your legal right to _request_ flexible working and have it properly considered. Flexible working isn't itself a legal right. Sorry to cougar if that's what he meant?

The point is that if the business is going to reject a formal request then they are legally obliged to justify that decision

But does the employee then have to take them to a tribunal/court if they refuse a request? If so most employees would just find a new job.

If yoir contract states yoir place of work then thats your recognised place of work, relocating to San Francisco is a material change to your contact so not the same as expecting you to honour your contract.

You have a right to request flexible working, providing some reasoning will give it more weight, I have family commitments of x, y and z would be more compelling than I don't want to go in.

In reality the company can usually fairly easily turn it down, no doubt they would cite the desire to return to the office is due to their belief that productivity and collaboration will be enhanced, even if working from home is currently working.

To be honest it sounds like head office in the States has made a blanket decision, it'll be down to local HR to deal with the fallout. If they are a half decent UK employer there may be some room for sense, if like many American companies it's very alpha male they will have their hands tied.

I'd wait for a formal instruction to return, whack in a flexible working request but be calm and polite. You've got no real employment rights as you've been there less than 2 years, it'll all come down to how dictatorial head office management are and how much they want to keep you. It's likely the commitment to WFH was made in good faith but it's now been superseded by a higher power.

You joined on the basis of a fully remote working basis and subsequently “established” that from an employment law perspective through the ongoing working arrangements.

Should the employer try and force you to change the agreed working practices without a clear basis for doing so there’s a pretty good basis for a constructive dismissal claim down the line.

I’d try to highlight the agreements made at the time of hiring any relevant contractual evidence and try and resolve it amicably - but also be prepared to fire a warning shot across the bows of HR at an appropriate point.

If it’s an American owned / led company this kind of stuff is often complicated by the fact HR people in the States are often pretty ignorant about employment laws in other countries - even small efforts to highlight relevant local legal constraints result in the employee being deemed “awkward”.

Good luck!

Flexible working isn't a legal right. The right to request flexible working is. And as I understand, the onus has shifted from the employee to the employer to justify any decision made.

For me, the oddest thing is your team has been moved to fully remote working by business decision; it might be hard for them to reverse that without evidencing why. But only hard if they need to win at employment tribunal.

Would agree with the comment above, if your entire team has adjusted well to remote working, there will be significant resistance. And fundamentally, you're not actually able to sensibly comply with their request. Make it known, and sadly buff up the CV as recommended above.

Constructive dismissal is very hard to win and not really applicable to the OP due to length of service, they can terminate employment with notice without a real need to explain why. It's easy to talk about tribunals but in reality the system doesn't really work for employees unless you're supported by union cash and representation and you have an employer who will not be vindictive if you win, I.e. public sector. In reality tribunals are expensive, stressful, time consuming and the pay outs generally not worth the hassle and it doesn't stop employers behaving like dicks.

I'd just have a quiet word with your manager. Explain your position etc, get validation that your works upto standard....

No point going full nuclear on something that hasn't happened yet.

@trail_rat

from Aviemore to Stranraer

Had they committed some crime against humanity and were practising for an eternity of hell?

duncancallum
Full Member

I’d just have a quiet word with your manager. Explain your position etc, get validation that your works upto standard….

Yep, surprised more people haven't suggested this. Keep it informal and casual, make them aware you're concerned, see if they can be any more forthcoming with info. If nothing else the response will be enlightening and it shouldn't cost you anything unless the relationship's borderline toxic anyway.

It is your legal right to _request_ flexible working and have it properly considered. Flexible working isn’t itself a legal right. Sorry to cougar if that’s what he meant?

With the crux there being "properly considered," yes.

But does the employee then have to take them to a tribunal/court if they refuse a request? If so most employees would just find a new job.

Perhaps. As I said earlier, it's not really relevant at this point. Taking a current employer to tribunal isn't generally considered a great career move though. 😁

Cougar's well-intentioned post is off the mark. You don't have a right to flexible working. At best, you have a right to ask for it and for that request to be considered reasonably.

HR people in the States are often pretty ignorant about employment laws in other countries

HR people are often pretty ignorant about employment laws in their own countries - like our HR team that's insisting they can reject all flexible working requests because there is a blanket policy of rejecting them! 🙄

Less than nine months service?
Goodwill and fairness considerations?
US parent company?
Unfortunately, my only comment is...good luck.

Just keep quiet as they’ll be other folk who’ve been there far longer than you , who are far more valuable/senior etc who’ve a similar issue with it – let them fight the battle, but, I would also have a Plan B…

This is probably the immediate answer, along with dusting down the CV again. Your position is far more precarious given your length of employment.

Cougar’s well-intentioned post is off the mark. You don’t have a right to flexible working. At best, you have a right to ask for it and for that request to be considered reasonably.

After 26 weeks employment you have a right to Flexible Working which can be reasonably rejected by an employer for the reasons I listed above which I copied from gov.uk (and to the best of my knowledge, only for those reasons). It is a formal process, they cannot just blanket refuse a Statutory Request. If say you asked to work a reduced 4-day week and they didn't have the labour to cover the shortfall in hours, that's a legitimate rejection; if they said no just because they didn't want you to then they're acting unlawfully.

You have the right to ask for anything, that's surely meaningless? I could ask work for a gilt chaise longue, 1980s-era Kelly Le Brock and a catering pack of Swarfega (and my employer could after reasonable consideration respond "you're daft, go away" without requiring any further justification).

Where am I off the mark here? Have I missed / misunderstood something?

Yeah that's a nice idea Cougar but not how it works in practice.

The reasons for rejection give absolutely acres of room for even the most dim-witted management to refuse. There is basically no objective information that can be used here so hard to argue definitely either way. Plus it sounds like the OP is recent hire so could be punted no reasons given, not really a strong starting point for going in Billy Big Bollocks and telling your employer they're acting unlawfully (in the employee's unqualified opinion).

Intheborders has it nailed, let others who are longer served & have more clout in the business fight it out but be prepared to jump if needed.

And Stranraer to aviemore I get but in reverse not si much.

Though there are some lovely bits on the Rhinns

Like you, i have a role currently where the commute to the office is/would be unworkable. I told them this up front.

My contract states something like 'your home office is x and expected to attend the office 3 days per week unless other arrangements have been made with your line manager'.
So i have an agreement with line manager its WFH unless really need me in the office. Ive been to the office 4 times in 6 months.

HOWEVER. As other have said, if they pull rank (and my manager has said also) - if they demand you in the office, your contract states that and not much else you can do.
They know the consequences of that action. If enforced, they shall have my resignation microseconds later.

So my advice, as above, keep WFH until someone notices/starts complaining, and have a quiet word in you managers ear and clearly state your position (again).
But get that CV spruced up in case.

Id start job hunting. If nothing else a job offer gives you leverage with the current employer.

It's trivially easy for a company to turn down a flexible working request for an employee that wants to WFH and the employee would need ultimately need to challenge that through a tribunal - who's going to do that in a situation like the OPs?

It sucks that the circumstances have been changed like that but there's really nothing the OP can do apart from make the case they can't do the role if not WFH and then it's up to the company if they value him enough to make an exception or not. If they refuse to then in reality the OP has very little choice but to seek employment elsewhere, you can argue about contracts and rights all you want but he's been there less than 2 years and could very easily be managed out anyway. Sure if the he was in a union etc. etc. it might give other options but it would still probably mean little in this scenario.

Heard of loads of US owned companies demanding staff go back into the office - I'm surprised its taken this long for you.

Talk to your manager, and start job hunting. Messing around with contracts and law soon becomes more pain than gain

I would look for a new job. I took a new role on in July last year, was promised remote/semi hybrid work which was discussed in depth in my interview. Was very honest and told them all the reasons I much prefer WFH, better mental health, calmer work space with less noise and no over stimulation which helps with me being Neurodivergent as I'm less tired and distracted and can focus on tasks at hand, less overall stress, more productive due to less time spent in traffic and more time actually at my laptop etc, they grilled me on how I could manage a team working remotely but I had all the answers as I'd already been doing it effectively at last job since the pandemic started. I did agree that whenever I am needed in the office, important meetings, requirement of 1-1's with team members etc I'd happily come in for the day, we agreed on 1-2 days a week during my probation period.

Never appeared to be an issue and I got the job. Roughly 1 month before my probation period ended a high senior member of staff over looking another department that we have a lot of dealings with tried to force me and my team back into the office mandatory for 3 days a week in order to benefit his department, I explained to my boss's boss that I wouldn't have took the job if that was the case and I'll happily look for a new one.
This went up the corporate chain until it got to one of my seniors 4 positions above mine who for context, when I took this team over it was a shambles, I put in lots of hard work and we're now one of the better performing teams, he got wind of this and squashed the notion with something along the lines of "this team is doing better than the rest and some of the members havent been in the office since march 2020, bringing them back to the office on a mandatory basis will cause more harm than good, leave them be"

Since then I've been going to the office less and less but if they did try to change that I would look for a new job again, my performance drastically suffers the day I am in the office and the day after due to how much of a drain it has on me mentally

So my advice, as above, keep WFH until someone notices/starts complaining, and have a quiet word in you managers ear and clearly state your position (again).
But get that CV spruced up in case.

This. But also be aware that if the rest of the team ends up being office based then being the sole remote team member can sometimes be a bit crap - depends on team and company dynamics.

@politecameraaction

HR people are often pretty ignorant about employment laws in their own countries – like our HR team that’s insisting they can reject all flexible working requests because there is a blanket policy of rejecting them!

Blue Rewards?

Our Lords and Masters decided to have a global return to work, 100%, for all office staff after summer vacation last year.

We've apparently got about 18000 white collar staff globally and chairs for about 2/3rds of them. (some sites have less than 40% coverage, mine has about 85-90%)

That worked well.

So, a local/regional negotiation means I'm officially 30% home/70% in office, i need to deal with my Director and HR to change this. On the other hand, my manager simply can't be bothered to go through the paperwork, so he lets us do what we want within reason.

I'd carry on as you are and see what the fall out is.
But update CV and start looking around.

And as TAFKASTR is well aware, all us home workers just toss it off and do nothing all day, so you'll have plenty of time to look for a new job. /s

Our policy is 2 days a week in the office. I go in once a month for a face to face team get together, as do the rest of the team. If there's a need to do something in person then I'll go in for that but otherwise I don't see the point in spending 90 mins of my day travelling somewhere to work (arguably less effectively) than I can from home. My contract hasn't changed since pre-pandemic so still says I'm office based.

As with all policies it comes down to how it's being enforced - if your boss doesn't make a big deal of it then there's no problem, so if you get on with them just have a quiet chat rather than a full on fight with corporate HR.