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So they are saying that you need the UK average salary to retire comfortably, for a single person.
But the average UK salary is often also paying National Insurance, a mortgage, pension contributions, and costs associated with raising children.
But the average UK salary is often also paying National Insurance,
don't rule out that by the time you get your pension so are you!
a mortgage
yes that is potentially a big difference - perhaps more so with over stretched modern borrowers than previous generations of pensioners
, pension contributions,
are the average numbers before or after deduction of pension? e.g. my pension is salary sacrifice to gov have no idea what my contracted salary is to work out their average.
and costs associated with raising children.
well only those with children of that age. the average is worked out on all earners - so will include those who decide not to have a family, those who have yet to have a family and those whose family are already grown up as well as those who are funding childcare etc.
When they say to be comfortable in retirement you need above the average wage and the figure they quote is totally beyond possibility for the vast majority of the people of this country – then its nonsense
total pie in the sky stupidity nonsense
What they mean is if you want to continue your upper middle class lifestyle
TJ I think you've taken the word "Comfortable" rather too literally (ie. to mean than < this = uncomfortable). Comfortably well off has long been a euphemism for smuggly well off... You'll notice there isn't a category above it.
Whilst you might say it's beyond the realms of possibility for the vast majority of people - you worked alongside many people who will retire on pensions of that scale and some who would be horrified to survive on so little!
I find those pension calculators misleading. They often get you to type in how much you want in retirement then tell you how much you need to save to get that, failing to take into account any state pension you may get so it looks like you need to invest way more to achieve your goal. They also tend to show that your fund will give you x based on pretty low annuity rates with no mention of other option (draw down etc) so again you think you need to invest more.
Imagine being the financial advisor who told people that when they turn 67 they would get £7k pa from the government so only invest enough for £3k to hit your target when the govt decide to move the pension age to 70, or abolish it completely... Detailed discussions with a financial advisor will include it but also the caveats that it might not exist by the time you get there, and of course if you want to retire early you need the funds...
Does anyone know if the number they quote as your "predicted annual pension" is presumed to be after tax or before?
you worked alongside many people who will retire on pensions of that scale
Nope - hardly anyone person I have worked alongside will retire on anything like that. a medical consultant who did a full 40 years might get close. No nurse will get anything near that.
the biggest NHS pension you can get is half salary. How many NHS workers earn over £66000 pa?
Edit - thats wrong - pre 96 nhs pension holders can get to 45 / 80 of final salery. Now the most you can get is 45 / 60 of career average
I think thats right but the point still stands - NHS workers like me and those I worked with will get nowhere near that.
Comfortably well off has long been a euphemism for smuggly well off… You’ll notice there isn’t a category above it.
The old joke -
A banker gets hit by a bus in London. As the paramedics put him onto a stretcher and prepare to lift him into the ambulance, they say, "Are you comfortable?". The banker replies, "I make a good living"....
I think thats right but the point still stands – NHS workers like me and those I worked with will get nowhere near that.
While that may be the value of the NHS pension, surely it's personal choice whether to contribute in addition to another scheme out of your income?
My company matches contribution to 4%, doesn't mean I choose to blindly only contribute 4%. I look at my finances, my current commitments, my current lifestyle aspirations and my aspirations for retirement. I then make a decision of the opportunity cost on what to contribute which is a compromise.
How many NHS workers earn over £66000 pa?
I've no idea of the numbers, but most doctors, most management tier and probably most of the not insignificant IT department probably fall into that boat
In fact from the NHS website (band 8c and above)..
Examples of roles at band 8c - head of human resources, consultant clinical scientist (molecular genetics/cytogenetics) and consultant paramedic
Examples of roles at band 8d include consultant psychologist (8c-8d), estates manager, chief nurse and chief finance manager.
Examples of roles at band 9 include podiatric consultant (surgery), chief finance manager and director of estates and facilities.
London weighting is 20% so that'd bring in band 8b as well
I’ve no idea of the numbers, but most doctors, most management tier and probably most of the not insignificant IT department probably fall into that boat
Wrong
Most doctors earn far less than that. YOu do not get to those sort of sums until you are one of the seniors FY1. FY2, are the most common doctors - they earn around half that. Staff grades get close. consultants get a basic a chunk more than that
Medical staff are not on those payscales they have their own payscales
the other posts you mention are very few and rare. Most management is band 8a
I bet its less than 5% of the NHS gets over £66000 pa.
https://nursingnotes.co.uk/agenda-for-change-nhs-pay-bands/scotland/
So, how much a month are we all working towards needing? I would say once mortgage gone, gas/leccy/water/council tax/mobile/tv/broadband/modest car/insurances that is £800 per month for a couple. £1,200 to £1,500 for a reasonable life? 2k, I dont know, no wonder people are confused. Totally understand everyone has a different definition to reasonable.
Let's try and get back on track and away from senseless NHS pay bickering.
I had the morning off, walked the dog, had a run, a haircut and a spot of brunch before work.
Looking forward to doing something like that more often .
I'm about to take another step away from the rat race. I'm already on a 4 day week and wanted to drop to 3 next year but don't think I can do my current job in that time. So I've proposed that I quit my current post and drop to 3 days a week in a new role (which I'm currently defining so I'll make sure I keep the good bits and drop the hassle) and remain available to hand over my knowledge and experience to my successor. Boss is supportive of the plan and the new position will be on a fixed term contract so it's a definite bridge to retirement.
Let’s try and get back on track and away from senseless NHS pay bickering.
Fair enough - I just get so fed up with people with no idea of the financial reality of most of the population and needed to correct the total misunderstanding of NHS pay rates
"I’d expect at least 5 years out of a pair of boxer shorts"
1,826 days use is pretty good going for a pair of boxer shorts.
1,826 days use is pretty good going for a pair of boxer shorts.
Remember you can wear them back to front and inside out, so that's only 456 days on each bit of fabric.
Andy4D makes a good point above on assumed returns and the calculators not mentioning draw down as an option.
One of the most useful things I've read in pension planning is an article on drawdowns and guardrails. The logic seems pretty sound and there are a number of different well tested examples given. I keep meaning to knock up the rules in a couple of excel macros but haven't got round to it yet.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/retirement/dynamic-spending-rules/
Remember you can wear them back to front and inside out, so that’s only 456 days on each bit of fabric.
or 3,652 days use out of a pair of boxers for the OP if he's not already doing that 🙂
So, how much a month are we all working towards needing?
I think it depends on when you retire. You could be aiming for 10 years in retirement or 30 - for the former you'll likely not have a hugely active lifestyle, and can make do without any big costs (car, kitchen, bathroom, roof, etc, are all unlikely to need doing in a 10 year timespan). 30 years is different, you probably need to buy at least a couple of cars, have the bathroom/kitchen redone, maybe some other expensive house stuff - maybe its only £2-3k a year to cover all of that (?) but it add a chunk to the overall.
In addition, the earlier you retire the more likely you are to want an active lifestyle, with more travelling, going out, etc etc.
I think we'll aim for £3-4k a month for the household at retirement (hopefully mid-50s), I don't mind if that doesn't track inflation though as 20 years later I'll probably be doing a lot less.
me and the good lady are doing very well on 20k between us. we had 60k between us when working. so how much money were we wasting ffs.
I looked at our (mine and Mrs F's, not mine and yours, that would be weird) outgoings a while back, one state pension would cover all household bills, food, and run one car and a couple of motorbikes, leaving the other state pension to spend on other things.
When you remove outgoings like mortgage, pension, savings, loans etc then you don't need a great deal to cover the basics.
so true mate. and if you time is spent riding your bike and playing with grandkids, you spend very little.
it is all about what you want to do in retirement.
it is all about what you want to do in retirement.
And the lifestyle you want
From now until I am 67 I will have under £10 000 pa income ( but a chunk of capital)
I will just have to cut my cloth accordingly to live on that sum and eat into my capital for expensive trips.
Personally I am totally happy to retire now on that small income. But I do not need an extravagant lifestyle
30 years is different, you probably need to ... have the bathroom/kitchen redone
One of the advantages of going to university- lived in some really bad places so a slightly tatty house is a luxury in comparison!
What’s the state pension currently, about 6k per year?
£7,155.2 (£137.60 per week) at the moment.
Current state pension if you’re fully paid up is £179.80 a week before tax, or £9.3k odd a year. Or at least that’s what DWP say I’ll be getting. Not something I ever thought I’d get as I’ve always planned on the basis that it would be abolished or means tested before I was eligible. Even after tax that should keep me in boxer shorts.
Nope – hardly anyone person I have worked alongside will retire on anything like that. a medical consultant who did a full 40 years might get close. No nurse will get anything near that.
the biggest NHS pension you can get is half salary. How many NHS workers earn over £66000 pa?
Edit – thats wrong – pre 96 nhs pension holders can get to 45 / 80 of final salery. Now the most you can get is 45 / 60 of career average
I think thats right but the point still stands – NHS workers like me and those I worked with will get nowhere near that.
TJ - I wasn't looking to start an "NHS pensions are great war" - but you've ignored state pension in your calculations. So your NHS colleagues either need an individual final salary of ~£42K (on 45/80) or a career average of ~£32k (on 45/60) without having any additional private pension. But the article also gave the numbers for a couple to be comfortable - which would require each person in the couple to earn £21-28k (depending on the scheme) working max years. That's actually possible for even a couple of grade 3s who work for 45 years at current rates. Its certainly feasible for ward sisters, pharmacists, registrars, etc - these are not the pensions of CEO's or fat-cat bankers.
My aim was not to suggest that NHS staff had gold plated pensions or were in any way well paid - but rather to highlight that it's not that exceptional to be able to get pensions that would meet the "comfortable" level if that is your priority, you stick it working as long as you possibly can etc, and milk it either with a late career set of promotions on final salary or getting up the ladder as quick as possible on career average.
Plus don't forget that the NHS pension is index linked - you would need an appreciable defined-contribution pot to be able to afford an equivalent index-linked annuity.
And if you don't buy such an annuity you then have to ride the risks of investing in the stock market and fighting the effects of inflation on your own.
As this page points out ( https://www.legalandmedical.co.uk/is-the-nhs-pension-scheme-good-value-for-money/) :
"To gain the security of the NHSPS you would be taking so little risk your fund values would struggle to keep up with inflation."
and
"We truly believe it would take either some extreme investment choices or high contributions to match the equivalent NHS pension. Not only is the NHS pension scheme still good value for money, importantly, a major part of your retirement planning is taken care of for you."
THey estimate that to get the equivalent of the 14.5% NHS contribution someone would have to be contributing 40.7% into a personal pension.
Poly - and what yo have ignored is the reality it really is exceptional to reach those levels
Most NHS employees never get anywhere near the theoretical max amounts because of career breaks - female dominated workforce, childcare. part time working
Its almost impossible to get the full 45 years ( I am still not certain 45 years is possible anyway but cannot be arsed to check)
Leave school at 18. take 4 years to train as a nurse - you would then have to work full time all year every year until 67 to get the 45 years
doctors it would be 69 or 70 because of the longer training
But most of us become physically and mentally unable to work that long. there is no way I could have gone on another 7 years
A huge amount of NHS staff work part time 0- indeed full time contracts are rare nowadays
so while in theory you can reach the levels ( still for a small minority of staff) in practice its rare indeed
I was objecting to the claim that many of my colleagues will reach those levels - it will in reality be very few if any
TJ - without knowing the individual circumstances of all your actual colleagues I can't of course prove that many of them will - but it might be more than you think! Certainly, they have the potential if they decide to work full time and keep going as long as possible - you are quite right that women will be disproportionately less likely to have accrued full pensions - and the NHS does have more women than men - but the numbers are much closer to even amongst the higher earners. [45/80ths was certainly the rule in the old scheme, I'm not sure if its 45/60ths, but I also thought the newest scheme was 54ths]. Interestingly a career average scheme is potentially fairer on those who do one job for many years than those who climb the greasy pole to end up spending the last 3 years on the maximum possible salary just to get the best pension.
The point of the article referred to (or at least the story behind the article) is to help people make informed choices about how much they need to retire with the lifestyle they want. Then they can decide if working part-time and its impact on your pension is worth it for the lifestyle benefit today versus the pain in the future; or if enduring working for another 5 years is worth it for the longer-term benefit of a more comfortable pension. I personally think it's really helpful to see those numbers not just for an individual but for a couple (I don't think I've seen anyone show them as a couple before - certainly my "IFA"* has never bothered to ask about my wife's circumstances).
What I can say with confidence is I know a number of NHS employees who certainly have the potential to get to those levels of pension. Pharmacists, Radiographers, Doctors, Senior nursing staff, managers etc. Given I believe you can "buy" extra years of pension not all of them will necessarily be working to 67 to maximise their benefits. Equally, some may have chosen private pensions, or have bought or inherited rental properties or holiday homes they've decided to invest in to get "pension" type income, etc - are those the norm - probably not - but people with individual £33K+ pensions, or household pension incomes of £40k+ are not purely the realms of bankers, CEOs and MPs - when you include state pension (especially two state pensions). IF "ordinary" workers want to get to those sort of pensions and act early enough they can get to those sort of pensions.**
*he's provided by my employer
** to be clear - I'm not being smug and sitting on a big pension. I wish at 19/20 I had listened to advice from a family friend that said to start saving for a pension , and I also wish I had understood final salary pensions and how special they were before I left a government job at 21/22! Some better decisions in my 20/30's would have made it far easier to consider early retirement in my 50s , but like most young people it all seemed so far off.
For ****'s sake. Please can someone divert this conversation away from talk about investment and the dire state of the NHS and working life in general.
I want people telling us about how they fill their later years with joy and fulfilment. How they wish they'd done it earlier. How little money they actually need.
How they took up whitewater kayaking again in retirement for the first time in 25 years. Because they had much more time available, and could padle when the rain came they quickly got back to the level they were at in their thirties. The fact that they lived in the Lakes rather than Altrincham gave them excellent access on good days.
That the regular trips meant that they could hone their skills and maintain a level of competence that meant that they were no longer the weakest in the team and most likely to die.
About the fact that they no longer had to do loads of short weekend trips to feed the rat, so saved enough money to make a 4 week trip of a lifetime down the grand Canyon feasible. Without thinking they'd die on Lava.
Please someone, tell me about that...
TJ – without knowing the individual circumstances of all your actual colleagues I can’t of course prove that many of them will – but it might be more than you think!
Poly =- I was told many of my colleagues will rench those levels. I know they will not and cannot. I could give details but you like many others vastly over estimate the numbers who can reach those levels
Please stop telling me that what I KNOW is wrong.
I could go on with details but I think this bickering has diverted the thread long enough. Just take MY assurance that the people I worked with from medical consultants to cleaners will not because of part time working and career gaps
The only NHS emplyees that will reach those levels are full time consultants and very senior staff - not ordinary working radiographers, nurses etc. Not even band 7 charge nburses
also I certainly could not buy extra years - I tried
Average NHS pension is £8000 pa IIRC
Looked at buying extra yrs for mrsb's NHS* pension, the sppa wanted £50K. No way were we dumping that into her pension. Yes you can buy extra yrs but the cost can prohibitive
* she works PT band 6
For ****’s sake. Please can someone divert this conversation away from talk about investment and the dire state of the NHS and working life in general.
Couldn't agree more.
I was planning on retiring last month having recently turned 60.
The reason I've put it off until mid Feb is due to not being sure what travel restrictions would be in place, & no confidence in those chancers in Downing street changing things whilst I'm away.I had planned to go back to Nepal this week for 6 weeks trekking...
I'l be finishing mid Feb,travel restrictions or not & I'm looking forward to it.
I currently work 4 on 4 off & I have no problem filling my days,can't see me being bored when I finish.
Two tales from the canal bank last Winter.
1) It's lockdown a nice midwinters day & I go for a walk,I get talking to someone in the canalside beer garden of a pub that's closed due to the lockdown.We keep our distance & have a chat he tells me that he's retired a few months earlier age 62 & despite the lockdown he's loving it & can't wait for eveything to open up so he can enjoy retirement even more.Not regretted it for a minute,however he says that his wife retired 5 years ago & just spends all day watching television,that's no good.I told him I was planning on going in September & a few things that I do,he said go for it,you won't be bored.
2) Lovely late Winter/ early Spring day & I'm down the canal again.It's roughly mid day & this bloke's packing up his fishing gear,we exchange pleasantries & he goes on to tell me that he loves it down here,in fact he's never away from the place.He goes fishing 3 times most weeks & rides his bike along the tow path as far as Appleby Bridge or even Gathurst about 12 miles away.When he tells me this I ask,'Don't you work then'? He says,no mate I retired a couple of years back.Turns out he's 58,retired at 56,he was a shop fitter went into work one day,decded there & then that he'd had enough & finished.He said he was fishing at first light,had a great morning,it had cost him 3 rounds of bread for the breadcrumb bait he was using & 5 miles each way in petrol for his car.I told him I'm finishing soon age 60 & he says I should have gone at 55!
He reckoned the hardest part of the process was actually retiring.
I had a meeting with the financial advisor a few months ago,she did the sums,my outgoings, as expected were less than £1100 a month plus holidays.
I want people telling us about how they fill their later years with joy and fulfilment. How they wish they’d done it earlier. How little money they actually need.
I retired in march. My income will be ( until I am 60) £8000 pa
MY plans and sums got rather buggered due to my partner dying
I have no mortgage and have a chunk of capital ( lump sums from pensions / my dead partners pensions)
I can easily live on the £8000 pa - I do not have expensive tastes. I do not own a car and am not materialistic at all
My chunk of capital will be used to pay for expensive trips ie next winter I am going to go to the Yukon for 3 months. I know people there. the air fares will come out of my capital, I will easily be able to live on my income
the following summer will be spent cycling around europe for several months. Again I will do this out of my income and should have no need to tap into the capital
While I am out of the country for long periods I intend to holiday let my flat - getting up up to the high standard I want will come out of the capital but then the income from rentals will be used to top up my capital funds. rinse and repeat for as many trips as possible
As above plans got somewhat buggered otherwise I would have been away to south america this autumn/winter.
But "cutting your cloth according to your means" means that for example the South america trip would be done on local public transport and staying in cheap accommodation not using expensive tour companies and accomodation aimed at westeners
cycling around europe next summer means cyling not flying, camping not hotels and cooking for myself not eating out
Its perfectly possible to enjoy a good adventurous retirement on a small income.
Its perfectly possible to enjoy a good adventurous retirement on a small income
With respect I think that is far easier to do when you have a house and capital as backup. I am trying to advise an elderly relative at the moment who lives on her state pension and has close to nothing in savings. Even though she lives frugally, every time she has an extra bill - boiler breakdown, washing machine packs up etc, it sets her back really badly. She can only spare £10 or £20 here and there and that takes an awful lot of months to cover the £500 boiler repair.
If she had a backup pot, this would remove that stress and give her options.
Hooli - I totally agree - I am in a very lucky position in many ways ( though Id rather have my partner alive and have a much smaller capital pot - her death led to much of the capital coming my way)
Just trying to demonstrate that it is possible to live fine on a much smaller amount than £33000 pa
Well I've taken the next step and signed up with an estate agent to sell my house - going to be moving to the Rhondda valley (as in the moving to Wales thread).
Probably play some golf with my mate in Caerphilly but will be biking an awful lot more than at present as the obviously hills are right outside the house and it is about a 14 mile cycle to Afan. Try and get some fitness back before it is too late...
Not planning on buying any more bikes for a while - I have a few Turner mtbs (inc one for the girlfriend) that should last a while, and a Tripster, although I might fit CYC X1 Stealth ebike motors to two of them.
Mix it up with some walking in the Beacons, etc.
Big sports center across the road and a Bowls club for when I get older.
Girlfriend works in care so plenty of jobs around for her.
Based on my keeping track of my expenditure for the last 3 months and banging up a decent spreadsheeet to manage everything easily, my expenditure should be WAY less than when I was employed.
I think for people on here the articles in the press about how much you will need to retire on are not applicable - if you are primarily an outdoors person your entertainment costs are going to be a lot less.
Now we're talking 🙂
I mentioned it a while back but one of the most useful things I did was to "shape" my spending over several years (actually done it until my wife receives her state pension which is the last significant financial event for us, that we can predict!)
I finished in July but not sure yet if I am between jobs or retired. I was an IT director and although I generally enjoyed it it is not a job you can easily just do part time. It can be a bit consuming so you are either in or out. At the moment I don't think I have the enthusiasm to enter that field again and the danger is that I actually have just about enough to live a good lifestyle now without working (Mrs Surfer works and wants to carry on for a bit longer yet) and as I have said before (I was 57 last week) it is about stages of retirement. I run, cycle and walk as much as I can and want to do more of that. In 10 years time I will receive my state pension but for the next 3 or so years I will draw heavily on my SIPP/ISA but then our outgoings reduce significantly. The "4%" rule wont work for me if I go now so the next few years looks more like:
7%
6%
5%
5%
6%
4% for 4 years then 1% forever
There is risk that taking larger amounts earlier erodes the capital but assuming overall 4% growth pa means that by year 11 my savings will actually start to grow again and by the time I am 71 will be larger than they are now.
I can only do this by remaining invested in equities (I also have a couple of DB pensions) which of course brings its own risk.
I applied to Prince Albert Angling Society in May 2020 knowing there was a 2 year waiting list but I had my acceptance email through this week so I'm getting ready for a bit of winter fishing. I've got Hatchmere (Delamere) on my doorstep so I can pop out for an hour or so with the spinning rod and try and get into the pike. I can also be on the Dee at Farndon in 20 minutes or further upstream at Erbistock or Llangollen for some fly fishing. Great hobby for clearing your mind.
i just need to find some more cycling buddies as the ones I usually ride with are still working.
We've just come back from 2 nights in North Wales as the weather looked settled so we booked a last minute midweek break.
Don't miss working one bit.
I'm just trying to work out whether I'm between jobs, semi-retired or fully retired.
I have basically climbed loads since my last contract ended - great for my mental state but it's simultaneously building and destroying my body. I live in one of the best bouldering areas in the country ( 10 mins to Caley and Shipley Glen, 30 minutes to Almscliff, 40 to Brimham) and loads of bouldering gyms within 30 minutes. I have become obsessed with pushing my grades now I've got the time!!
I may ease back on that a bit and do more on the bikes and hiking.
I also am learning the guitar. In the past I've painted to a reasonable amateur standard, but got out of the habit - partly lack of space with two home offices - should really get back into that
If I decide I am actually retired I will take up some part time voluntary work ( I've already got a few weeks lined up) as I like the structure of having a job
I'm terms of money - I think is dependent on what you spend and what commitments you have. Paid off mortgage and no responsibility for kids make it much easier to cut cloth accordingly. Also having savings for unforseen costs as mentioned above really helps. As does budgeting. I've been tracking monthly spend for over a decade - including depreciation on vehicles - and so have a really good handle of what I spend.
Prince Albert Angling Society
Made my eyes water...
I’m just trying to work out whether I’m between jobs, semi-retired or fully retired.
Ditto - I retired from my last job in July @ 55 (got fed up with fighting the short-sighted corporate ethos), but haven't yet put my pension into payment. I'm doing a few odds & sods for my previous employer which is keeping the wolf from the door for now. It still feels like a holiday at the moment.
For ****’s sake. Please can someone divert this conversation away from talk about investment and the dire state of the NHS and working life in general.
It's been just over a year since I asked "Retirement: what's it really like?" and just under a year since I retired. Covid has meant that I've been slightly less adventurous than I had hoped but overall it's been good and I don't regret it at all. I've walked a lot, cycled a lot, and fixed up a load of things around the house and garden. When not completely locked down I've really enjoyed my days volunteering for the local Wildlife Trust. I'm probably fitter than I've ever been, certainly faster on the road bike than ever before. The one thing I regret and will try to change is that I spend far too much time on here, with the result that I haven't read as many books as I'd hoped.
The money side has been fine - probably Covid helps with that as it has reduced opportunities to spend, but I think we'll be OK even when the pandemic is over. As many have said, if you have paid off the mortgage and your children are independent, you really don't need much to live on. I'm very lucky in that I have a pretty good DB pension that kicked in when I was 60, which means that I haven't had to touch either savings or my SIPP.
Prince Albert Angling Society
Made my eyes water…
Yes, I'm not looking forward to the initiation ceremony.
Another thing about retirement I've found is the weather is not as crap as I thought it was, and quite often you get a day that is rubbish in the morning and good in the afternoon (or vice versa) so you can shape your day accordingly.
a day that is rubbish in the morning and good in the afternoon (or vice versa) so you can shape your day accordingly
Definitely this. If you look out the window and see some unexpected sunshine, you can just get a bike out and ride. I have loved the freedom to do that.
Two weeks to work before retiring on the first of December; looking forward to it greatly. 😁😁
got to agree with the weather thing.
after 37 years of cycle commuting, inc nights and shift, the weather was a proper bastard sometimes. having to set off at 5am in winter icy rain was the worst.
now i wait for the rain to stop and then go out.
I am 5-6 years away yet, by then mortgage/car will be paid, eldest 22 so hopefully starting to earn, youngest 18. But then I start thinking.....ok 18yr old may need a few years uni funding, our house will be 25yrs old so may need a few bits doing (eg kitchen) etc so maybe I need to work another few years to pay this etc. In all honesty, I hate my job but can stick it out for 5 years as I see the end in sight, not so sure I want to do another 8+ but may need to financially. My biggest fear is stepping off the treadmill of a well paid job......let’s see where I am at in 5 years time.