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I love how a thread on resolving arguments has splintered into multiple arguments
No it hasn’t.
Young people clearly don't understand what "argument" means.
Build jumps, council spend money flattening them. Build jumps again, repeat. Eventually the council will get fed up/run out of spending money
Yes I was thinking this aswell, the counciller who came up to us complained that it cost thousands to clear the jumps. Then they are rebuilt by an army of kids in 30mins. Surely it's in the council's best interests to come up with a good solution instead of constantly throwing money at it?
Lol! Cougar; watch your blood pressure, yeah? 😉
Yes I was thinking this aswell, the counciller who came up to us complained that it cost thousands to clear the jumps. Then they are rebuilt by an army of kids in 30mins. Surely it’s in the council’s best interests to come up with a good solution instead of constantly throwing money at it?
Kids need an outlet for their energies. Kids are full of energy. Kids are also devious, and spend much of their time trying to work out how to do what they want, regardless of what the 'adults' tell them. This is just part of their nature. Always has been. It's why society has progressed beyond hairy cave dwellers grunting at each other. So; far better to seek a compromise that keeps people at least reasonably happy, than continuing to oppose them. Because that has never worked, ever. In the entire history of humanity. Those in the local council should reflect on this, and think about how to create a workable solution, rather than continuing to oppose.
Seems one kid tried the 'official' route, some time ago. Seems that, unsurprisingl, got nowhere:
https://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/news/1265664.dirt-bike-boy-delivers-his-plans-to-mp/
@bridges that's very interesting I have never seen that article.
The guy in the pic also looks a lot like the guy on the left at 0:03 in this video:
Although maybe everyone looked like that in 2009. The jumps in that crater area are still very similar today, and the borrow holes from years ago are there. The jumps have also extended South of the crater which may have created the increased interest from the council to destroy them.
Are those little jumps really what the local gammon are hyperventilating about? Jesus H Christ. I imagined there were like 30 foot gap jumps and all sorts...
So; far better to seek a compromise that keeps people at least reasonably happy, than continuing to oppose them. Because that has never worked, ever. In the entire history of humanity.
Hang on, is this the same poster who an hour ago was delivering his own "we will fight them on the beaches" speach from his keyboard?
As for all of you saying ‘obey authority’; people like you stand by and watch as stronger people take a stand. So just stay out of the way; your apathy and weak mindedness achieves nothing. Ever...................Leave the fighting to those who can; you stick to the safety of behind your keyboard. The strong will protect you. Hopefully.
Guys I think this has blown out of proportion a bit. I am happy to open a new thread where we can have a free for all if you want (moderators permitting)
@bridges yeah its those jumps and some further up the hill. Here is an older pic as I don't have one of their current state:
Since this photo they have become a bit higher but also the gaps shorter. The amount of jumps has not changed recently as they have been mostly focusing on rebuilding broken jumps. It is in no way a large operation and the jumps aren't super advanced.
Hang on, is this the same poster who an hour ago was delivering his own “we will fight them on the beaches” speach from his keyboard?
Why, yes, yes it is! How about that, eh? Carry on misunderstanding though.
yeah its those jumps and some further up the hill. Here is an older pic as I don’t have one of their current state:
Lordy. I struggle to see why anyone would have an issue with that, I have to say.
Hahahahahhaah hahahahha hahaha haha haha hahahahah hah ha ha ha...
I thought this was going to be like the Surrey Hills doubles. I’d barely even call those jumps. They are certainly not dangerous. Can’t believe everyone has got so riled up.
This really does just look like kids having fun in a bomb crater. If you haven’t done that in your time do you even deserve to call yourself an MTB’er?
The world seriously needs to get a grip and focus on real problems. To me this is the definition of 1st world problem in Champagne socialist West London. Someone’s just taking it out on the kids because Waitrose gave them full size spinach instead of baby spinach by accident and their dog masseuse called in sick 😂
Yes I was thinking this aswell, the counciller who came up to us complained that it cost thousands to clear the jumps. Then they are rebuilt by an army of kids in 30mins. Surely it’s in the council’s best interests to come up with a good solution instead of constantly throwing money at it?
I would say it's in everyone's best interest. The problem is finding the person or group who can talk to both the council and the other kids/adults and get them to listen and work together
I'll try and get some more up to date pix once I go there again to give people a better perspective. The jump that the woman seems to always get worked up about jumps over a log that walkers have put down (ironic, I know) but also stretches across a path which may be a danger.
In terms of community support, we have had quite a few people saying that they think it is cool, lots of young children think it's impressive and even old people were encouraging. Only one or two people have complained/taken photos/threatened to call the police.
If I have to pick between a bunch of kids with shovels who want to ride their bikes off a few drops and berms, and some old biddy plus the keyboard lawyers on STW, I think I know where I stand.
If you've never ridden a cheeky trail or popped off a badly done pallet drop, I feel sorry for you. They come and go, nature of the beast. 16 year olds with shovels are not going to go looking for landowners and the local council, that's for us old farts.
colp.
Yes on Telegraph Road side. A complaint from a dog walker led to this apparently. Not exactly a huge area but bit of fun and good to see and chat to the "youth" digging them. There's a jump area on a bit of woodland by Jct 2 near my house that seems to be surviving well and is fairly busy though I think I'd just break myself if I played out there.
In terms of community support, we have had quite a few people saying that they think it is cool, lots of young children think it’s impressive and even old people were encouraging. Only one or two people have complained/taken photos/threatened to call the police.
In my experience, the kind of people that complain about everything kids do, and bang on about doing everything by the rules etc, are just resentful that they've never really taken risks or come out of their comfort zone, so feel somewhat inadequate and need a target for their frustrations. Funny how some of the gammon on here that were harping on about legality etc, have gone quiet now the real nature of this heinous crime has been revealed! 😀
Funny how some of the gammon on here that were harping on about legality etc, have gone quiet now the real nature of this heinous crime has been revealed!
The OP asked for solutions to a dispute. The only way to find a solution is to talk to the other side. Ignoring them hasn't solved the dispute. So, how do you propose to solve the argument?
With spades of course 😂
Check out the Ben Cathro accidental unapproved trail build over the summer on YT to see how it’s really done. At that level I may say the kids have gone a little too far in sunny West London. He managed to get approval post build on the end.
In my experience, the kind of people that complain about everything kids do, and bang on about doing everything by the rules etc, are just resentful that they’ve never really taken risks or come out of their comfort zone, so feel somewhat inadequate and need a target for their frustrations.
Ah, that sort of attitude is just whats needed to reach a resolution.
Funny how some of the gammon on here that were harping on about legality etc, have gone quiet now the real nature of this heinous crime has been revealed!
I suspect they got bored listening to people talking crap; and now you've labelled them gammon (a weird analogy as IME the people the "gammon" label gets attached to are least likely to be the ones pointing out the law) - are probably even less inclined to engage. Still I'm sure you feel better for your post.
In my experience, the kind of people that complain about everything kids do, and bang on about doing everything by the rules etc, are just resentful that they’ve never really taken risks or come out of their comfort zone, so feel somewhat inadequate and need a target for their frustrations.
Oh dear - you really have no idea do you.
With spades
...and hoes and ploughs
Ooh yes please! Covid has meant we haven’t been able to get anyone in to do the decorating, and it’s well overdue. And the garden’s a mess too, but please; I wouldn’t want you to put your back out, or worse, keel over. That would be awkward explaining to the authorities.
Well, the decoration might be dog shit in little bags hung on any available handle, crude graffiti, empty cans, bags and other crap, and you won’t mind if I do the garden over with a mini digger to avoid putting my back out, and any structural features I’ll just shove into a pile against the back of the house out of the way.
Is that ok?
Nobody likes a smartass, son, especially one who just thinks he’s a smartass.
#rollseyes.
the kind of people that complain about everything kids do, and bang on about doing everything by the rules etc, are just resentful that they’ve never blah blah blah
These two things are not equivalent.
I despise my generation and older ragging on our successors. We should be encouraging them rather that telling them that they're shit at ever turn. And of course they should be questioning things.
But that's a paradigm shift from cultivating "**** authority, I'll do what I please."
Sometimes rules are shit. They're often in place for the benefit of people who would eat crayons unless they said "do not eat" down the sides. Yet sometimes they're there to try and safeguard against you accidentally destroy a red squirrel habitat.
But, yay jumps. I'm alright. Power to the people. I'm clearly weak for not driving past a school at 50mph.
In my experience, the kind of people that complain about everything kids do, and bang on about doing everything by the rules etc, are just resentful that they’ve never really taken risks or come out of their comfort zone, so feel somewhat inadequate and need a target for their frustrations.
You really are making a bit of a t1t of yourself.
Sometimes rules are shit. They’re often in place for the benefit of people who would eat crayons unless they said “do not eat” down the sides. Yet sometimes they’re there to try and safeguard against you accidentally destroy a red squirrel habitat.
+1.
I despise my generation and older ragging on our successors. We should be encouraging them rather that telling them that they’re shit at ever turn. And of course they should be questioning things.
Indeed. I constantly encourage the yoof in my life to ask questions. To challenge ideas. To seek new alternatives. It’s called learning, it’s called growth & it’s the only way forward. Sometimes you have to accept the status quo as that’s the best option, other times challenging the status quo brings forward new & advantageous changes.
But, at all times remember rule no 1: don’t be a d1ck.
Ok soz for the 'gammon' comment, but really, get some perspective. It's a few pretty small jumps (even I'd happily jump them), kids have tried to get 'permission', the local council have been obstructive, so what do you expect to happen? Kids are kids.
Well, the decoration might be dog shit in little bags hung on any available handle, crude graffiti, empty cans, bags and other crap, and you won’t mind if I do the garden over with a mini digger to avoid putting my back out, and any structural features I’ll just shove into a pile against the back of the house out of the way.
As I said; get some perspective. In the grand scheme of things, how 'bad' is this, really? Has anyone actually been harmed? Has nature suffered in any major way? Have some kids had fun over the years? It's really not that big a deal.
Sometimes rules are shit. They’re often in place for the benefit of people who would eat crayons unless they said “do not eat” down the sides. Yet sometimes they’re there to try and safeguard against you accidentally destroy a red squirrel habitat.
There aren't any red squirrels in London.
There aren’t any red squirrels in London.
Because of all the dirt jumps? 😈
Kids are kids.
That's not a resolution to the problem. Do you have any constructive advice about how the dispute can be resolved? "Everyone can go **** themselves" does not resolve it, it's just a way of avoiding having to deal with it.
Do you have any constructive advice about how the dispute can be resolved?
Actually, given that 'official' avenues seem to have been tried, and exhausted, then perhaps a bit of civil disobedience is in fact in order. I've seen BMX tracks built, where kids have tried for years to get the local council to help them build one, and have been turned down, so they build their own jumps anyway, until the council gives in and properly funds one. If you want something enough, keep hammering away until you get it.
What advice would you give?
Because of all the dirt jumps? 😈
Ha ha! Yeah, totally. It's all the kids' fault. 😉
... kids have tried to get ‘permission’, the local council have been obstructive, so what do you expect to happen? Kids are kids.
My advice would be for them to find an adult who cares and has some understanding of the problem and process and get that adult to help them work their way through the system (I think I suggested this several posts ago). It sounds to me like they are getting bad advice from the adults in their lives, saying "crack on, what do the council expect".
My advice would be for them to find an adult
So how does that help them find their own way in life, if they feel they have to have their hands held at every turn?
What advice would you give?
I already gave advice early in the thread. If you want to resolve the dispute, you will have to do it by talking to the people you disagree with and persuading them that you can work together. If that's not possible, then the dispute won't be resolved.
If that’s not possible, then the dispute won’t be resolved.
So then what?
So then what?
Then it's not resolved and the OP will be disappointed.
So how does that help them find their own way in life, if they feel they have to have their hands held at every turn?
See it as an apprenticeship, they are learning how to use the system, they won't be kids for ever some of this is about turning them into decent adults
It's also about building relationships, the council will struggle to do that with kids, it's far easier with an adult (that's 18 not 81) who can bridge from the kids to the council and from the council to the kids. It's far easier to get a decent compromise if you have someone who can understand both sides of the issue
Where on Wimbledon common,
Locals only!
Hahahahahhaah hahahahha hahaha haha haha hahahahah hah ha ha ha…
I thought this was going to be like the Surrey Hills doubles. I’d barely even call those jumps. They are certainly not dangerous.
I can assure you that similar 'jumps' which appear and disappear in the woods near me can be very highly dangerous to middle aged blokes who failed to learn to jump as kids.
re. Wim Common,which I used to live on the very edge of... nothing built on the common is secret. Don't even pretend to think it is. You're probably recycling a cross country course - people run on most of every inch of track in that place, and know it inside out,
Cutting down trees is asking for deserved trouble. And contributes to keeping bikes banned from the bits they should be allowed
Update on the situation for anyone interested:
Yesterday I was out riding and (not much digging going on, just riding) and the parks patrol came down and started telling people to stop riding or risk a 60 pound fine. The only paths you are able to ride down are the mains paths. There are currently no signs saying this but when I asked they said it wasn't a new thing. A lot of the riders will have no idea about this so there will be conflict if they come back and catch people riding/digging. I can't seem to find anything in the bylaws about not being able to ride so it is a bit of a suprise change.
I am no longer a minor so more worried about recieving a fine. I have spent so much money on my new bike that I don't want to risk a fine or even getting my name taken down.
The email to the council is still in the works, but I have turned my attention to another piece of land - a small piece of land that is owned by the Royal Parks but outside the park wall. It has great elevation and a bit of trail alreay carved in. There is atleast enough space for two lines and maybe even a pushup.
Maps and google streetview:
In this pic the blue line is where the proposed trail would go:
I have sent off a formal email to the Royal Parks so will update when they get back to me. Hoping for the best anyway.
I'd love to see how they are going to start fining you £60 when they have no authority to take your details. How are they going to track you down if you don't pay the fine? It's not like your driving a vehicle which is registered to you. Sound like a bunch of overzealous tits.
Byelaws are here -
https://www.richmond.gov.uk/council/decision_making_council/byelaws_and_local_legislation
There’s a specific rule in the commons page about not cycling except where allowed (law 7b).
FWIW, the Teddington jump track has got some massive (to a 45yo mincer) gap jumps on it now, so I reckon that’s where the kids need to be hanging out in the Council’s eyes.
@Jimddubleyou
Thanks for the bylaw, I did spend a while looking in those but the wording is wordy and I must have missed it. However, unlike some commons East Sheen doesn't have any signs saying you can't cycle IIRC, but I'll have another look when I'm there next.
As mentioned above, unfortunately the council does love to tell people to go to TL, but I feel it is dangerous and very much tailored to the DJ/BMX, which most MTBers don't have. Also it becomes very crowded at weekends. The advantage of having another area would share the load and give access to people who live in Sheen/North Richmond.
@belgianwaffle1 - fair points on Teddington, it’s a massive borough and there’s definitely room for more facilities.
I think you’re onto a loser with the Royal Parks, but good luck nonetheless! That whole ridge line (within the park) has potential for more than a couple of blue rated trails.
@jumdubleyou
Funilly enough the only reason that I know that stretch of land is still Royal Park's is because I tried to dig there myself thinking it was a kind of no man's land. 10 minutes in a guy told me to stop and that I should contact them directly. He mentioned that it could become a trail so that is why I am giving it a go. The rest of the park is obviously off limits as it is very well protected. Let's see what they say anyway.
I’d love to see how they are going to start fining you £60 when they have no authority to take your details.
of course they have if you are doing something against the law.