Forum menu
"More uninformed blather, trespass is not illegal"
Well done. You win the internet for today. You'll be able to wear a nice pedant round your neck, to show off to everyone.
"If I trespass you wouldn’t know I’d been there"
I would. I have secret cameras. Everywhere. I'd set the dogs on you. No-one would ever know you'd been there...
"It’s curious how morals go out of the window when it’s in people’s favour"
Yep. That's the world in which we live. If you ask me, it's best to get your money's worth out of it. Because someone else will always be out to **** you over.
My (highly enjoyable) ride today involved using paths where cycling is expressly forbidden.I made the difficult moral choice. I'm sure Hell will be nice and warm at least.
build in Richmond Park
I know RP well - you’d never NEVER get away with it & I couldn’t advise more strongly against it.
If anyone did - I’d kick them down happily. You’d cause more damage than you could ever realise. The Royal Parks JUST about tolerate cycling as it is. DON’T give them a reason to really hate us!
It’s east sheen common.
I used to ride there with my mates nearly 40 years ago, it had jumps then too. I wasn't any good at them then, either 🙂
There is a lot of truth in that JonEdwards. Bradford Council have a chap in charge of outdoor space that rides bikes so they have Ilkey Moor and Esholt for example.
Sheffield is another level thanks to receptive people on the council (and lots and lots of time and hard work both mental and physical).
Here in Calderdale at the moment we don't have anybody on the council on our side which is very frustrating. The chap in charge of looking after our woodlands is a lovely bloke with a tough job but admits he knows nothing about mountain biking and his bosses aren't too keen on us.
Just over the hill in Kirklees their woodland guy rides bikes so is pretty cool with the idea of us managing the various local spots rather than destroying them.
There is a theme here isn't there?
If you do choose to go down this route it will be hard work. And in my case involves the poacher becoming the gamekeeper but its worth it. That little spot of ours was full of kids of all ages this afternoon all wearing big smiles. I just wish they'd take their litter home!!
Ok thanks all for your replies. Went down there today and to another spot in Wimbledon Common and it was busy as usual.
I may have misstated, it's not much of a forest, more just bits of forest and some paths.
In terms of digging, not much new happened today, they seemed to have just fixed up the doubles which were running nicely. I have tried to ask them to just work on one line, but I didn't get a great response.
Digging on Richmond Park is definitely out of bounds as it is heavily patroled and Crown Land is very protected.
Image showing where most of the digging is going on compared to the total common size:
I would be interested to hear people who are local to the common's opinions on the matter.
Where on Wimbledon common, in Wimbledon but about £1m short of being local to the common 😉
If it is in out of the way areas on the common I don’t really have an issue, it’s not as if a sodding great golf course full of middle class tossers is part of the natural nature of the common but that’s allowed / encouraged
Secret little spot, jumps, berms drops etc.
Depends how far away you are from the common but I am happy to give info. PM me if interested.
“Can I come round to your house redecorate your house and dig up the garden?”
Ooh yes please!
Only I get to choose what I do, and in fact I'm going to dig your garden to suit my own purposes in a way I know you'll hate, and I'll be round with my mates at all hours. Still up for it?
Look, I ride cheeky trails, but you can't take the piss.
The trails at hemlock stone in Nottingham went through a similar process when the council decided they were too dangerous and knocked them down. They were eventually reinstated with council permission after some hard work by locals to get it agreed and there's a pretty good relationship with the council now. Digging is only allowed on official dig days. Could be worth sending a message to hemlock trail association for some advice.
Anyways thanks for all the replys. Email should be going out soon and we will have to see what the response is from the council. Hoping for the best anyway.
Unfortuanetely it seems like the unstoppable force meets the immovable object situation.
It’s interesting that this and the Innerleithen threads have popped up on main forum page at the same time.
There’s a desperate need to fund facilities locally - where people actually live.
It is an old story of insufficient funding for local amenities and poor investment that is targeted towards our young people.
Getting this funding in place, securing some local space for this will surely reduce some potential for unofficial trail building on private land and the associated conflict...?
another spot in Wimbledon Common
You might just get away with it on the common.....just....maybe......but keep it small otherwise the rangers or someone else will find it & it’ll be gone with trouble to follow..
You might just get away with it on the common
Yes not me building, I just know the guys who did and they showed me. Apparently they've had a few run ins with rangers already and have had to run a few times lol. Especially after cutting down a tree to make space for a gap over berm jump.
I have to say I agree with TJ and others - you won't get the council to engage whilst you are actively vandalising their land (in their eyes, and in the law). The trick to getting a council to do anything is engaging with the councillors (not the officers) - they need to see three things:
- this will in some way make things better for the citizens of the council (that might be a cost saving through reduced vandalism elsewhere, or new facilities, or improved education outcomes etc - but the average resident has to see some "value" from it).
- the councillor must be able to get some PR out of it, this is especially important in the 18 months before they get reelected. So they won't be interested in quietly sorting it - they will want a big solution with their picture in the paper!
- that even if there is some controversy (e.g. dog walkers who complain), that there is enough general feeling that they are trying to do the right thing. Something that pissed off their voters is bad. So if their core voters are old people with dogs and too much time on their hands you have an issue. If their core voters are parents you may be on to a winner.
Which councillor to engage is an interesting thing. Only the ones in power have any real clout. The rest make noise about what the ones in power should be doing. A local trick here is to go to all the parties though and essentially try to get consensus - "young people need better facilities", "cycling across town to get to facilities is quite dangerous", "young people have lost out because of covid", "young people in london don't have good access to the outdoors" etc. you should be able to get some traction. IME they will then bring you the council officer who gets told to help you! Its not over then but if you try the council officer directly it will be a fight.
I'd want to find a local youth worker who understands the issues in the local area and how this group may or may not be helping them - experienced youth workers have usually learned how to talk council lingo.
You will also need to be prepared for stupic claims like this:
Increases the workload for local hospitals significantly.
Even ‘approved’ trail areas significantly increase footfall to hospitals
Whilst it may increase the number of people going to hospital with minor trauma, and that is easily measured, its much harder to measure the reduction in people going with minor trauma from trying to ride down concrete steps instead, or getting hit by cars, or stabbed because "all there was to do was get involved in drugs", or suffering mental harm on the internet, or becoming drunk sitting drinking cider in the same woods, or becoming fat lazy and a long term problem.
The small number of people who get hurt in trail centres (anyone who says "significantly increase" is presumably unfamiliar with statistics or has no idea the number of football, rugby, domestic violence and alcohol related injuries are in our hospitals on a normal weekend to make quite a big denominator for the face plants and collarbones on bikes!) would not have been sitting in a padded cell at zero risk of harm if they weren't riding a bike.
I just know the guys who did and they showed me. Apparently they’ve had a few run ins with rangers already and have had to run a few times lol. Especially after cutting down a tree to make space for a gap over berm jump.
Really? this is why illegal trail building needs to be stopped. FFS cutting down a tree!
Yes in this case I completely agree with you it was too far to cut down a whole tree. No wonder the rangers were pissed.
FFS cutting down a tree!
But on this common people are allowed to have a private golf course right across the middle of it, which is the more environmentally damaging? Who knows how much the golf club pays the council but in 2016 it was £25 p.a
On the subject of trees, right now in my area, the council are removing a significant amount of trees from the woodlands as part of a management plan and ringing some of those that are left.
I'm not saying this is wrong, this is part of a plan for a healthy woodland but to a young kid building a trail they are going to struggle to see how removing one tree or a few branches is a problem.
Same here. A huge area of cheeky trails has been destroyed when the National Trust cut down hundreds of trees. They built new roads to get the logging vehicles in, it now looks like the aftermath of a battle. They've done it in the name of conservation, getting rid of non native trees. It'll grow back and the wildlife will return. The trail builders will return too and the damage they do will be tiny
to a young kid building a trail they are going to struggle to see how removing one tree or a few branches is a problem.
I have this vague feeling that one of the things parents and other adults are supposed to do is provide guidance to kids about stuff like this.
Apparently they’ve had a few run ins with rangers already and have had to run a few times lol. Especially after cutting down a tree to make space for a gap over berm jump.
Their cover is blown then. Don’t be surprised if the trails get trashed. Cutting down a tree will have p1ssed off the rangers no-end. Shame, if they’d kept it subtle then they might have got away with it..
Whilst it may increase the number of people going to hospital with minor trauma, and that is easily measured, its much harder to measure the reduction in people going with minor trauma from trying to ride down concrete steps instead, or getting hit by cars, or stabbed because “all there was to do was get involved in drugs”, or suffering mental harm on the internet, or becoming drunk sitting drinking cider in the same woods, or becoming fat lazy and a long term problem.
Bit of a sweeping statement, but I can’t disagree with its intent. 👍
Your bike and other equipment can be forfeit if discovered damaging an SSSI or disturbing protected wildlife.
It is happening around here too. There have always been some jumps in the back corner of the woods, they are tucked away and although the landowner knows they are there, he turns a blind eye.
Recently (perhaps caused by lockdown?) there has been more building and closer to the carpark and main path. There are groups who spend all day there digging and riding, they have a portable speaker and food. The jumps are getting bigger, more gaps than tables, the borrow pits are getting bigger.
The result of this is more people see the jumps, hear the music and see the litter left behind. They see the gaps and the borrow pits and think of the danger.
We are on borrowed time before they get knocked down by the landowner.
But on this common people are allowed to have a private golf course right across the middle of it, which is the more environmentally damaging?
Wow, people just built an entire golf course across council land without asking permission? Oh, hang on - are you saying that actually the council can be cooperative if you open a dialogue BEFORE moving the bulldozers in. Who'd have thought that!
The thread title is about "resolving argument". There are two ways to resolve an argument. One is for all the parties to sit down and work out some sort of agreement. Ideally, both sides are better off. The other is to go to battle and the strongest side will get what they want while the weaker side will get nothing.
In the case of a council with the law behind them, plus earthmoving equipment, a bunch of kids with shovels will not win a battle, so that's not the way you're going to resolve it.
However, if you're not really looking to resolve it, just to find a rationalization for keeping on digging, just make up whatever reason you want. The council won't be interested in hearing it because you're not interested in finding a resolution, so the only person it matters to is you. "The world can go **** itself, I'll do whatever I want" will work just as well as anything else because the only thing that matters is your own opinion.
The thread title is about “resolving argument”. There are two ways to resolve an argument. One is for all the parties to sit down and work out some sort of agreement. Ideally, both sides are better off. The other is to go to battle and the strongest side will get what they want while the weaker side will get nothing
.
That tends to be the outcome when 'weaker' groups sit down with local authorities to try to reach an agreement, mainly. A group of youngsters will get nowhere trying things the 'official' route, in my experience. However; a bit of properly organised civil disobedience, might actually work well in the long run. Build jumps, council spend money flattening them. Build jumps again, repeat. Eventually the council will get fed up/run out of spending money, and either relent or ignore. The only winners are the plant hire firms. And each time, the kids learn new ways of thwarting authority. Which, given today's climate, can only be a good thing. As for all of you saying 'obey authority'; people like you stand by and watch as stronger people take a stand. So just stay out of the way; your apathy and weak mindedness achieves nothing. Ever.
Jump spots come and go, it was like that thirty years ago when I was a kid, it's still the same. Richmond council aren't going to help.
Anyway, the kids are back a school, the amount of digging will back right off, and all you miserable old gits can stop whining about kids having fun😁
A group of youngsters will get nowhere trying things the ‘official’ route, in my experience.
No, they need adults to show them how to do all this. The OP's question was about "resolving" the argument. That means that adults need to help the kids work through how to resolve disputes. Civil disobedience has its place, but starting things off with civil disobedience is a poor tactic because other people will view you as louts who are unwilling to sit down and resolve the issue. Starting by approaching the landowners and showing that you want to find a resolution is a much better tactic, even if you believe they are not interested.
My (highly enjoyable) ride today involved using paths where cycling is expressly forbidden.I made the difficult moral choice.
And last year we had https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-are-cyclists-vilified-in-the-uk/
As for all of you saying ‘obey authority’; people like you stand by and watch as stronger people take a stand. So just stay out of the way; your apathy and weak mindedness achieves nothing. Ever.
You think this is all about 'sticking it to the man'? Don't talk wet.
It's not about blindly obeying authority. It's about how pissing someone off probably isn't the most effective strategy in getting them around to your way of thinking. Hols is bang on the money. We think we can do what we please and then are shocked when non-cyclists get the arse with us. You start digging up someone else's property and leaving it covered in shite, it's only ever going to go one way no matter how noble your cause may be. Meanwhile as a consequence I get shouted at as a 'bloody cyclist' or worse by families and dog-walkers on bridleways as I trundle past them at any-slower-and-I'll-fall-off speeds.
Wheaton's Law. This is why we can't have nice things.
This is why we can’t have nice things.
Civil disobedience is a big part of why we have as many nice things as we do.
Oh, hang on – are you saying that actually the council can be cooperative if you open a dialogue BEFORE moving the bulldozers in. Who’d have thought that!
No what I’m saying is that a golf course that restricts public use of a common and leads to more manicurement of the environment probably has a greater adverse environmental effect than some kids chopping a tree down and therefore the outrage here is a little misplaced. Thought that was pretty obvious tbh.
I’d say there’s little chance of any official help on Wimbledon common, cycling is banned over most of it, the priorities seem to be golf and horse riders (although a lot of the local stables seem to be closing).
each time, the kids learn new ways of thwarting authority. Which, given today’s climate, can only be a good thing. As for all of you saying ‘obey authority’; people like you stand by and watch as stronger people take a stand. So just stay out of the way; your apathy and weak mindedness achieves nothing. Ever.
😂🤣😂🤣
Or you can grow up and figure out that engaging and getting a seat at the table gets you far better results than "civil dissobedience".
I mean, what if every user group decided to say stuff the rest I'm doing my own thing. What will happen when the model railway club flattens the jumps to build their new clubhouse. Then Persimmon flatten that to build a block of flats? I mean, at what point do you think other people should engage with the democratically elected council?
Or you can grow up and figure out that engaging and getting a seat at the table gets you far better results than “civil dissobedience”.
That's working out really well for the majority, isn't it?
You think this is all about ‘sticking it to the man’? Don’t talk wet.
No; it's about getting what you feel you need, out of life. Regardless of your opinions, obviously these youngsters feel they want and need somewhere to have fun, so in their own eyes, they're being 'proactive'. Yes, they have much to learn about life, but forcing kids to be subservient and meekly obedient, is why we have such a weak, subservient and pathetically obedient society now. You're just jealous because you've got no fight in you. Leave the fighting to those who can; you stick to the safety of behind your keyboard. The strong will protect you. Hopefully.
That’s working out really well for the majority, isn’t it?
I figure I do more good writing environmental guidelines at work than squatting in a tent in Central London with ER.
Also, the majority. That's not kids on bikes. It's the other 99.9% of people who use city center open spaces. Litteraly the minority spoiling it for the majority.
Yes, they have much to learn about life, but forcing kids to be subservient and meekly obedient, is why we have such a weak, subservient and pathetically obedient society now.
Alternatively, you teach kids that becoming politically active on an intellectual level is more fruitful at getting what you want than firebombing police vans in the town centre.
You’re just jealous because you’ve got no fight in you. Leave the fighting to those who can; you stick to the safety of behind your keyboard. The strong will protect you. Hopefully.
You're the one who feels the need to lash out. Intellectual small man syndrome?
Leave the fighting to those who can; you stick to the safety of behind your keyboard.
There was me thinking the schools had gone back!
How old are you? 12?
🤣
Alternatively, you teach kids that becoming politically active on an intellectual level is more fruitful at getting what you want than firebombing police vans in the town centre.
This.
Just a couple of examples of what (sometimes big) kids have achieved round here:
And over the road from that
And a couple of miles away
And this is from Reading council who are a bit......... bike hateing.
You’re the one who feels the need to lash out. Intellectual small man syndrome?
Lol. Triggered, much? Why are you even bothering to respond, if that's your opinion of me? Lashing out? Says the person dishing out a snide attempt at an 'insult'. Go you!
How old are you? 12?
Only when I buy a Wagon Wheel. Then, I'm filled with bitter disappointment. It's a lesson I've never learned...
I love how a thread on resolving arguments has splintered into multiple arguments that can't be resolved unless the other side backs down and confesses that they were wrong all along.
No; it’s about getting what you feel you need, out of life.
I feel I need a Porsche. Guy across the back has one. I'll just help myself then, shall I?
You’re just jealous because you’ve got no fight in you.
I have plenty of fight in me, thanks. I just don't believe "what I think I want" justifies theft and large-scale vandalism of someone else's property. Rather than playing the Internet hard man I'd rather just ask nicely in the first instance. Do we want to resolve the disagreement, which is what it says in the subject right up there ☝ or do we want to see who can escalate things the most? They put one ours in the hospital, we put one of theirs in the morgue?
You really don't see the difference between asking for something that isn't yours and taking it? It's the sort of self-entitled antisocial attitude that motivates bored old ladies into stringing around barbed wire at neck height rather than crocheting blankets.
I love how a thread on resolving arguments has splintered into multiple arguments
No it hasn't.
No it hasn’t.
Yes it has
Similar issue on Wirral at the moment the council has flattened a load of jumps claiming lockdown has led to their creation. They've been on the land for at least 20 years in a quit area of parkland. I hope the diggers keep digging.