[Closed] Residents who think they own the road they live on,parking issues

There are two ways to do a street party on a public carriageway.
1. Do a temporary road closure through the local council. Includes notices telling people when there will not be access and when/where they cannot park etc
2. Do it illegally.

mrchrispy - Member
@dooosuk I'll wager you are near the Unicorn

Correct Mrchrispy.

Whereas some seem to be objecting about disruption to day-to-day "socialising," and I'm perplexed as to what impromptu socialising you want to do in the middle of the road which is prevented by parked cars.

Well, and I fully admit it is probably rose tinted nostalgia but I learnt to ride a bike on the street I lived in, I played with my friends in the street as I grew up. I sat on the garden wall and drank cider as a teenager! All this kind of stuff.

It's not necessarily formal "socialising" per se, I don't think I've ever been to street party for example. It's the informal everyday social contact that I miss I suppose. The presence of cars parked along the street, on the pavements and everywhere there's space (grass verges etc.), the associated noise, smell and pollution doesn't create an atmosphere conducive to this kind of social life.

I'm still not seeing how parked cars are preventing you from doing any of that stuff. How on earth are people parking which prevents you from riding a bike or sitting on a wall?

How much smell, noise and pollution does a parked car make?

It's seem that the real problem isn't parked cars, it's you and your mates not being 14 any more.

It's not necessarily formal "socialising" per se, I don't think I've ever been to street party for example. It's the informal everyday social contact that I miss I suppose. The presence of cars parked along the street, on the pavements and everywhere there's space (grass verges etc.), the associated noise, smell and pollution doesn't create an atmosphere conducive to this kind of social life.

+1. It's a public space that could be put to a range of uses, but is usually restricted to one.

I'm still not seeing how parked cars are preventing you from doing any of that stuff. How on earth are people parking which prevents you from riding a bike or sitting on a wall?

Parked cars make my street significantly less safe and pleasant to cycle on.

I'd have thought the moving ones would be more of an issue.

I'd have thought the moving ones would be more of an issue.

The two issues are not unrelated.

Indeed - I explained why a little earlier

I'm still not seeing how parked cars are preventing you from doing any of that stuff. How on earth are people parking which prevents you from riding a bike or sitting on a wall?

Parked cars obscure visibility, create additional hazards etc. It makes learning to ride a bike more hazardous. It doesn't stop me sitting on a wall and I think we're getting a bit bogged down in the specifics here. It just doesn't create a conducive atmosphere for stopping to chat and just being round other people.

How much smell, noise and pollution does a parked car make?

Lots when it's parking and starting off. The slower the vehicle the more concentrated the air pollution is. People who are doing deliveries block the road and leave the engine running because there's no space to do deliveries. There's lots of reasons why parked cars generate noise and pollution both directly and indirectly.

It's seem that the real problem isn't parked cars, it's you and your mates not being 14 any more.

Possibly, but I don't blame parked cars for that! I would like my kids to be able to enjoy the environment outside their home rather than having to walk to the nearest park. Maybe that is asking too much these days. I'm sure quite a few adults would be pleased to be able to do so too though.

I do wonder if a part of that problem is parents having (relative to the halcyon days of the 70s and 80s) less free time to actually take their kids somewhere?

I don't know, I guess I can sympathise, but I can't help but think that the solution to giving kids somewhere to play isn't "the street" (though again, I suppose it's different if you live on a leafy cul-de-sac rather than a main road). Maybe what's needed is more green spaces in urban areas or something?

Parked cars obscure visibility, create additional hazards etc. It makes learning to ride a bike more hazardous.

I'm trying to teach my young daughter to cycle safely on the road. That's difficult to do on my street when parked cars on both sides reduce it to a single track road.

I do wonder if a part of that problem is parents having (relative to the halcyon days of the 70s and 80s) less free time to actually take their kids somewhere?

Could be less free time. Although I didn't play with my parents on the street as a kid. I was taught to ride by my siblings too. My parents worked longer hours than I do anyway, but I guess that's not the case across the board.

I tried to explain earlier that it wasn't about specific reasons for using the street as something other than a means to get from A to B. It was having the opportunity to use it as space for a range of things, everything from kids playing, adults talking, somewhere to share a brew. Just general social life stuff that no longer happens there in many cases, with excess numbers of parked cars seeming to be a strongly related factor.

That's difficult to do on my street when parked cars on both sides reduce it to a single carriageway.

Which also seems to instill a sense of urgency in people to drive through as quickly as possible in case they meet something coming the other way.

Couger, I think you're getting bogged down in specifics, kids playing is just one example in a multitude of things. There's a lot more to it than the individual uses, put them all together, along with the psychological impact of the street not being somewhere you 'escape from' and it can make a massive difference to how people interact with each other, even tiny things you might not think about like people on the other side of the road being separated by a line (or two) of parked cars can alter and limit our social interactions.

Take the whole parking outside your house thing that seems to be the route of most of the issues highlighted in this thread.

Why do people want to park directly outside? There are a few legitimate reasons, like regularly having to load heavy objects, or a genuine lack of mobility, but mostly it's about wanting to be as close as possible, to minimise the time spent moving between car and house, even when we're only perhaps talking 5-10m away. Why are those 5-10m significant?

It's almost subconscious to most people but they have disregarded the street as a viable location for anything other than parking in their mind, so they want to minimise the time and effort moving from house to car, it's insidious but it changes our perception of the location and it's value for anything else.

Sure this isn't only due to cars and parking them, but it's wrapped up in a change in attitude, and a change in behaviour where we have become more insular, more bound to 'our' personal spaces. I'm not for one second blaming all the ills of the world on cars and parking them, but there's a correlation for sure.

I genuinely do not give a monkey's where my car is parked as long as it's within a few mins walk, it's often in our road, but frequently in in of the neighbouring roads, and I think part of my indifference to parking location is because I walk and cycle most places and have more direct interaction with my surroundings and the people nearby because of it. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I can't explain it away any other way.

I've taken to parking in the local playground, thusly freeing up space on the roads for the kids to play.
I'll be sure to park in the pub's beer garden when the adults want to socialise in the streets.

Just general social life stuff that no longer happens there in many cases, with excess numbers of parked cars seeming to be a strongly related factor.

I have lived on a number of streets which didn't have any parking issues. Few if any cars parked on the street. The general social life stuff never happened there either.

Parked cars may make a street more unpleasant but I don't believe it is a key factor in the way society has changed since the 70's.

I've taken to parking in the local playground, thusly freeing up space on the roads for the kids to play.
I'll be sure to park in the pub's beer garden when the adults want to socialise in the streets.

Those pesky kids don't pay road tax, either.

One of my neighbours is pretty anal about being parked directly outside his house, what make him that way? I have no idea. But I do know that his entire mental map of 'our street' must consist of his house, and the bit of pavement outside his house between it and the car, he simply never interacts with anything else in the street other than when he drives past in his metal and glass box, insulating him from it.

Could be less free time. Although I didn't play with my parents on the street as a kid. I was taught to ride by my siblings too. My parents worked longer hours than I do anyway, but I guess that's not the case across the board.

Yeah, I was trying to work it out. I remember playing on "the street" when I was very young, a relatively quiet side street at the time. But "the street" was basically the footpath, and I was expressly forbidden from crossing the road.

When I was older, "playing out" mostly meant time at my mate's house or at the park, but I suppose we were lucky enough to have a park in spitting distance of home. I learned to ride a bike under my own steam on a mate's cast-off (I was forbidden a bike as my mum argued that I was enough of a liability of foot, so obviously a far safer route was to hack around on deathtrap bikes with no brakes). And we rambled and explored as kids do, any bit of disused land and back street we could find. "Playing out" with family involved my folks taking me to parks or to places they wanted to go to.

But I've never really used local streets as a "social area" as you describe. I've never thought, "I'm making a cup of tea, then I'm going to drink it on the traffic island." It's alien to me. Though I do have a frame of reference in so far as an ex-girlfriend did live in such a place, an aforementioned leafy cul-de-sac in Fulwood, Preston. They'd have street parties for things like Halloween, all dress up and go round to each others' houses to quietly run their finger across the fireplace checking for dust. I thought it was by turns bizarre and awesome.

I remember my grandad, in the house I'm in now and with just as many cars parked outside, used to sit in the front garden and watch the world go by. He'd shoot the breeze with passers-by or folk doing the same in their front gardens, everyone knew each other probably because most had grown up together.

I don't really know where I'm going with this other than, well, I don't want to trot out "correlation =/= causation" or claim the car is king. But the assertion that you can't hang out on the streets like you used to because of parked cars doesn't feel right to me. Rather, if you lived with the sorts of neighbours who would socialise with each other, in the sort of area where popping round to your neighbours for a brew would be considered commonplace, then you'd socialise, cars be damned.

I don't really know where I'm going with this other than, well, I don't want to trot out "correlation =/= causation" or claim the car is king. But the assertion that you can't hang out on the streets like you used to because of parked cars doesn't feel right to me. Rather, if you lived with the sorts of neighbours who would socialise with each other, in the sort of area where popping round to your neighbours for a brew would be considered commonplace, then you'd socialise, cars be damned.

Fair enough, I won't try and persuade you anymore!

I will say though that I believe that a neighbourhood and the people that live there are not two separate entities, they influence each other, everything from the architecture, the road geometry and layout, the sociodemographics of the folks living there, the car ownership levels etc. All contribute to the greater micro-society. The behaviour of people I think is influenced by their environment and I also think that applies to simple, normal, everyday things as well as the wider ranging larger stuff.

Rather, if you lived with the sorts of neighbours who would socialise with each other, in the sort of area where popping round to your neighbours for a brew would be considered commonplace, then you'd socialise, cars be [s]damned.[/s] an annoying inconvenience which do over time create and reinforce changes in behaviour

Speaking from experience of having lived in a street that has been affected in such a way.

I will say though that I believe that a neighbourhood and the people that live there are not two separate entities, they influence each other, everything from the architecture, the road geometry and layout, the sociodemographics of the folks living there, the car ownership levels etc. All contribute to the greater micro-society. The behaviour of people I think is influenced by their environment and I also think that applies to simple, normal, everyday things as well as the wider ranging larger stuff.

that's it ^ put into words better than I could 🙂

we live on a main road but the houses ae set a bit back from the road. most houses have front gardens but ours is only one of the very few that have had the front garden turned into a driveway. previous owners did this before we bought the house. they also got the council to come and paint a white (no parking) line at the end of the drive.
i'm not sure who would enforce this as i've never seen a traffic warden on our road in the 5 years we've lived there and i doubt the police would be bothered.
having said that most drivers get the message and dont park there...we've only ever been blocked in about 3 or 4 times but its never been a big problem getting them to move. our neighbour has sometimes parked there for a short while but he's always been polite enough to ask/tell us first

Couger, I think you're getting bogged down in specifics, kids playing is just one example in a multitude of things.

Who?

I wasn't really looking for a definitive list, just trying to get an idea of a vital role for roads other than the movement of traffic that had a bit more substance than "wah wah cars." Which I think we have now.

Why do people want to park directly outside?

I can only speculate, but I think potentially the biggest factor might be the perception that it's their space. How many posts on this thread talk of people buying a non-runner just to prevent someone else using it? Or people like the woman I posted about, getting all passive-aggressive at me parking up for five minutes because she was "expecting visitors" on a completely empty street.

Sure this isn't only due to cars and parking them, but it's wrapped up in a change in attitude,

I'm inclined to agree.

I will say though that I believe that a neighbourhood and the people that live there are not two separate entities, they influence each other, everything from the architecture, the road geometry and layout, the sociodemographics of the folks living there, the car ownership levels etc. All contribute to the greater micro-society. The behaviour of people I think is influenced by their environment and I also think that applies to simple, normal, everyday things as well as the wider ranging larger stuff.

Yeah, well said.

Who?

dammit, I actually went back to edit that mis-spelling shortly after I typed it and then forgot while typing something else, sorry 😳

Why do people want to park directly outside?

I can only speculate,, but I think potentially the biggest factor might be the perception that it's their space. How many posts on this thread talk of people buying a non-runner just to prevent someone else using it

I'm actually genuinely interested in the psychology behind it. They must know deep down that they don't actually own it, and they must also realise if they thought about it the extra couple of meters wouldn;t make any difference, yet still it really is a major thing for some people.

I'd love to understand where that comes from, whether it's something about entitlement, or a minimising of external interactions, or a personal space thing, or a combination or something else, but it is curious.

They must know deep down that they don't actually own it

I'm not sure as that's true - or at least, certainly not always true. It's like the "you don't pay road tax" argument; cycling aside I saw a comment on Facebook the other day along the lines of "if we all have electric cars, how are we going to pay for the upkeep of the roads?" "Road tax" hasn't paid for the roads in eighty years and many folk - maybe even the majority - still think that it does. The notion that the space in front of your house is "your" parking space isn't a great leap.

I suppose as well, it's a mistake to underestimate people's ability to be peevish and petulant.

The notion that the space in front of your house is "your" parking space isn't a great leap.

Yeah, maybe I'm crediting people with too much knowledge and it is a simple assumption thing, but I'm sure if you stood in front of them and said "Do you really think you 'own' this section of road" most of them would know they didn't, the exception of course being private roads and such, but they're special cases and not really the kind of normal streets we are talking about.

Certainly anyone who has bought their house would know for sure what they did and didn't own as it'll have well been documented and described during the purchase.

And if you rent then you know for sure you don't own it, but again, I'm sure you'll know exactly what you're getting the use of for your rent, and what you are and are not entitled to, won't you?

I suppose as well, it's a mistake to underestimate people's ability to be peevish and petulant.

That's probably got more to do with it! I'm still gonna steer that one back to the why though, [i]why [/i]do they get that way? What is it that makes people get so protective of that space?

I'd love to understand where that comes from

I guess it starts from the obvious, but flawed logic that if we all just parked outside our own house then parking wouldn't be a problem.

I once lived in a new build street where everyone had 1 space per house and then were a number of parking bays designated as "visitor".

When I first moved in, everyone just used the visitor bays on "1st come 1st served". No problem.

There were insufficient bays to give every house 2 bays. One of my neighbours found out the visitor bays were actually owned by a number of the houses, he owned 2 parking bays.

So he went to the expense of sending solicitor letters to all of us about parking in them and then fitting posts with locked chains across his 2 bays.

He didn't own a car.

[quote=amedias ]Yeah, maybe I'm crediting people with too much knowledge and it is a simple assumption thing, but I'm sure if you stood in front of them and said "Do you really think you 'own' this section of road" most of them would know they didn't, the exception of course being private roads and such, but they're special cases

I think most of the people getting territorial about the bit of public space in front of their house are special cases

I'm still gonna steer that one back to the why though, why do they get that way? What is it that makes people get so protective of that space?

I wonder if it's just cumulative damage. Like, I doubt many people get bent out of shape the first time someone parks in "their" spot. However, over the years I can readily see how a little niggle turns into a massive chip on someone's shoulder.

You sometimes see folk with massive driveways, or farmyards, with signs up saying "no turning." I used to think "how petty can you get" - it's not like you're doing any damage or causing inconvenience. But if someone's using your yard as a turning circle 15 times a day I guess I can understand how you might get a bit grumpy about it.

i was amazed when i lived on a farm that someone knocked on the door to ask if it was ok to turn- IME it was no issue as its not like they are there for very long and we heard cars from the road anyway

@aracer pages back

and right there we have a typical motorists' "choice" which quite neatly sums up the background to the whole situation. It's like it's a multiple choice question: do I (a) block the movement of other traffic (b) obstruct pedestrians and break the law; because there aren't any other options are there?

Given my views and the fact i dont do it and i was guessing at why other folk do it I am not sure if its typical or not tbh I would imagine, given how some folk park the affect on other folk does not even cross their minds its probably just because it is easier for them. re football

Under section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 it is an offense to play football or any other game in the road to the annoyance of a user of the highway, those guilty of said offense is liable to prosecution and a fine not exceeding Level 3 on the standard scale.

I am not sure how you do this without annoyance - would you slow down for it if there were 30 kids playing football - is this an annoyance or hindrance. Either way I dont think it would be wise or legal to play a 90 minute game on a street and i would expect the police to move us all along.

I didn't realise the semantics were what the discussion was about. I stand corrected

I dont think you will find many folk who wish the roads had less traffic - as long as its other folk doing the less bit and not them. However given our reliance on cars I still see no easy solution to this issue. Everyone with a car [ and no drive] is part of the problem and the solution involves a radical overhaul of infrastructure and attitudes. I almost never use my car except for work and I walk or cycle everywhere else - and I cycle to work x2 per week @ 18 miles each way.

Why do people want to park directly outside?

Some seem to get irrationally annoyed by a road being using legally for vehicles but they really should have foreseen that problem before purchase- a bit like buying a house next to a school and then surprised its hard to get in or out at school times - annoying in that case but also inevitable. I would say folk parking outside your house is inevitable as well and it has never annoyed me.

I knew parking on the street but not nearby - always less than a minute usually not over 30 seconds away - was an issue. I also knew it did not bother me. I did not know how many folk felt very much differently about it.

[quote=Junkyard ]Given my views and the fact i dont do it and i was guessing at why other folk do it I am not sure if its typical or not tbh I would imagine, given how some folk park the affect on other folk does not even cross their minds its probably just because it is easier for them

I did appreciate it wasn't something you do - and I have to admit having some idea of your views I have wondered whether you're trolling a bit! I'm sure you'll have got that it was kind of a wider point regarding motorists attitudes and I only just resisted putting in a few other anecdotes of "well we have to do that" (because any alternative is inconvenient to them rather than illegal and/or inconvenient to other people).

Under section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 it is an offense to play football or any other game in the road to the annoyance of a user of the highway

Well there's me corrected on that one, and I have learned something in this thread. Though I suspect it is still possible to have a game without breaking that - and I'm damn sure given the police's reluctance to prosecute for more clear cut breaches of the Highways Acts that nobody has ever been prosecuted for it. TBH I'd be quite surprised if they were even prepared to move on people playing in the street given my experience of their reluctance to do anything about activities which clearly breached the law and are actually dangerous. I mean how often does anybody get prosecuted for breaching section 72 of the 1835 Highways Act?

trolling a bit!

Had a chat,on the phone, with a forum user you have met about this thread and i think part of it is just the way we all end up one sided on points.

Remove all cars we have spaces remove parked cars we still have cars moving and therefore its , at best, a dangerous public space and not one i want to chill out in or use for another purpose. I just dont see parked cars as stealing public space anymore than i see a moving one as stealing public space. I see soemting using public space

i wish there were a lot less of them but doesnt everyone even those with car[s]

Interesting about the legalities of playing football on the road, I wonder if the "to the annoyance of others" bit has ever been delved into at all? I'm guessing it is those using the highway to travel, rather than any other use e.g. parking their car. Would be a good one for the lawyers anyway.

As it happens when I used to play on the street there was always a shout of "Car!" if a car was coming and someone would grab the ball and we'd get out of the way (I should add this was a kickabout with half a dozen kids, not a proper game of football with thirty odd people). It makes sense if people are using the street to travel on. However, if they are using it to park on then I think there is a stronger argument for both uses to be considered.

a dangerous public space and not one i want to chill out in or use for another purpose.

Except in many cases it isn't necessarily a dangerous public space, it can be made dangerous by excessive numbers of parked cars and moving vehicles. Maybe others do want to chill out or use it for another purpose, but they can't because of the aforementioned issues.

I just dont see parked cars as stealing public space anymore than i see a moving one as stealing public space. I see soemting using public space

Fair enough, I'm afraid I disagree, but we're all free to have an opinion.

The notion that the space in front of your house is "your" parking space isn't a great leap.

I personally have received correspondence from people asking why we [the council] are not providing parking enforcement against people parked in 'their space' i.e. the bit of road in front of their house. Usually going on into details about how their neighbour who had the cheek to park there didn't seem to understand why they should move their car when shouted at.

"Road tax" hasn't paid for the roads in eighty years and many folk - maybe even the majority - still think that it does.

Hmm, well V.E.D. goes to central government and central government gives all the transport authorities monies for maintaining/improving roads, you could claim that only a portion of VED goes back to the roads, but, the assertion that some people have that all road maintenance is funded by council tax is rubbish.

Under section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 it is an offense to play football or any other game in the road to the annoyance of a user of the highway

breaching section 72 of the 1835 Highways Act?

Kids don't play "90 minute games of football," they play until they're bored or it's teatime. And by "play" I mean, one of them kicks a ball, another calls him a see you next Tuesday and they stand around arguing for half an hour.

I wonder if the "to the annoyance of others" bit has ever been delved into at all?

Having to get football-shaped dints pulled out of your car's bodywork is pretty annoying I expect.

Having to get football-shaped dints pulled out of your car's bodywork is pretty annoying I expect.

Certainly, I would imagine that would fall under some other legislation that would be easier to use than the Highways Act though.

Besides, in streets where the kids play football there should be sufficient social cohesion that the parents of the kids responsible are known by the vehicle owner so getting some recompense may be easier. Plus if the streets are being used for other stuff too, then there will be multiple witnesses, and low level antisocial behaviour/crime can be dealt with without getting the police involved! (most of that last paragraph was tongue in cheek)

Besides, in streets where the kids play football there should be sufficient social cohesion that the parents of the kids responsible are known by the vehicle owner so getting some recompense may be easier

in streets where the kids play football there should be sufficient social cohesion that the parents of the kids responsible are known by the vehicle owner so getting some recompense may be easier.

"Should" as in, it'd be good if there was, or there's likely to be?

There's a gang of kids that often [s]kick a ball against houses and cars and scream blue muder at each other[/s] play football in a little triangle where roads join across from me, I don't recognise any of them.

This playing football in the street is sentimental bollocks! Why would you want to?

We used to play football in the street in the 70's and 80's. However, it's a pretty rubbish place to play. We only really did it if we were playing "Spot" against a wall and then it was quite often at a group of garages, which you could still do today as there no parked cars and no through traffic.

If you wanted to play football you went to the park or played on the school field.

Sometimes some **** would call the police and we would get chased off the schoolfield. How ridiculous was that!

Can't be arsed to look that one up, is it the one about it being an offence to drive an ass on the Highway?

No, surprisingly enough it's actually very relevant to this thread - it's the bit of legislation which makes it illegal to park on the footway (unless you own a crane)

But how is the road space in front of a building split, when you live in one up one down set of flats?

Given I don't have a car, can I use my bit of road to have a picnic? 😆

But how is the road space in front of a building split, when you live in one up one down set of flats?

[img] [/img]

Obvs.

Not if the parents were the ones keying your car in the first place so that the road would be clear enough for little Johnny to play football in the street.
This is just too much for me to take in.

"Should" as in, it'd be good if there was, or there's likely to be?

Okay, okay. I won't do the "tongue in cheek" post again. I could see quite a few holes in that particular paragraph!

This playing football in the street is sentimental bollocks! Why would you want to?

True, I don't like football these days. My kids don't seem to like playing it either. It was just an easy example to use.

Lol at this thread, parking issues!?...move to the country Dahling, we have a nice garage, a double car port and a driveway you could park a double decker on....and it's gated.

City folk threads do make me chuckle...carry on.

I won't do the "tongue in cheek" post again.

I just wasn't sure of your meaning, is all.

move to the country Dahling

I'd love to. Can I borrow a quarter of a million quid please?