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WHich is inherently unfairIt means only rich people get to drive big, fuel guzzling tanks!
the reality is we have cars and many of us would struggle to get to work without them and need to change jobs so its not as simple as just saying you are poor tough shit.
but the houses predate the car usage. There is only parking on one side of my street so there is no way everyone can park in the street Permits would only mean we cannot park in other streets. The problem parking is during the say time so manageable generallyAm I still in favour of a first come first served permit system? Yes.It doesn't really punish the poor, only poor planning.
Dont disagree but it will be electoral suicide to have a policy if banning car use and making everyone use public transport except those rich enough to pay.Fix the issues that require car ownership and you fix the symptoms.
I posted this a couple of weeks ago, but it's probably worth reposting.
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I was driving and needed to make a phone call. So I did the sensible thing, turned down a side street, switched off the engine and got out to make the call (and stretch my legs). The street was a curved cul-de-sac (I think), and there wasn't a single other car parked on it. I parked outside a bungalow with an empty driveway and enough road space to easily park three cars if not more.
By the time I'd got my phone out, some woman was out of the bungalow. "Are you going to be long?" she asks? Resisting the urge to reply "WTF has it got to do with you?" I figured, be nice, "no, just a couple of minutes, I'm only making a phone call."
"Right," she says, "only, I'm expecting visitors." 😯
I can get about 20 cars on my drive........I love this thread :).........flame away I dont care
In the short term yes. If the reliance on fossil fuels turns out to be the big mistake though, or some other unpredicted consequence occurs (sedentary lifestyle, hydrocarbon poisoning etc. a bit like the Pb anti-knocking agent), then the costs could make the benefits pale into insignificance.
Well in the long term we are all dead anyway. Meantime the fossil fueled modern economy has brought us health, longer lives, and comfort far in excess of previous generations.
I lived opposite a woman who painted her own disabled bay outside her house, even tho she didn't have a disabled badge. If anyone parked too close she just used to use her tank (Volvo 850) to push them out of the way.
Then she died.
Underground car parks for all new builds
Extra storage for flood water as well. Double win...
My old old house was up a private driveway which had a smal row for 3 other houses to essentially come up headfirst then reverse up their access drive. In truth they mostly turned round which worked fine. The space was there but it was actually all my land and I had the AUDACITY to park a car in my garage and 2 more outside the garage and to the side. My neighbour seemed to have taken to leaving his car basically in the turning circle as they didn't have room thereby blocking all my vehicles in. I used to have to repeatedly go and get him to move it and explain that it was access one and not parking but he was a total arrisole and felt that he could do what he wanted. Anyway one night his car was stolen and he reported me to the police as prime suspect! He never did park there again.
Extra storage for flood water as well. Double win...
Or have the garage at street level with the accommodation above, thusly saving millions in ruined furniture.
Well he'd struggle since you nicked has car... 😆Anyway one night his car was stolen and he reported me to the police as prime suspect! He never did park there again.
Moi ? What an accusation !
Years ago I used to live on a street in Bristol with no off road parking and there were what you could describe as a few self appointed parking police neighbours.
I had a black works Transit that caused so many of them to moan it was taking 2 spaces that I just parked it 200 meters away in a Doctors car park (not used while I was parking there)
One evening I walked back to my house to see an almost identical but 2 years newer black transit parked close to my house!
Next morning it had 2 dents & 1 scratch on the kerb side, that evening it had several more scratches and a note under the wipers.
As I was leaving for work the next morning a policeman approached me to ask about the van, I said its not mine as I got so much grief from various locals about parking & showed him mine round the corner.
His face lit up and he then told me it was one of their own vans kitted out for surveillance that they had moved into the area following a drugs tip off.
Turns out 3 of my Parking Nazi neighbours were caught on the cameras damaging it & 1 got a big fine + community service as he had previous for aggressive behavior to a child.
Never did find out who was dealing drugs though.
Dont disagree but it will be electoral suicide to have a policy if banning car use and making everyone use public transport except those rich enough to pay.
Just as well that's nothing like what I've proposed then.
Read what I said again, I'm not proposing banning cars from the street, I'm saying that those who wish to do so will be allocated a permit (with as many permits as spaces) on a first come first serve basis. Anyone who already has a parking space or permit goes to the back of the line. Like they already do in Japan [s]to persecute the poor[/s] because space is scarce. They also have decent public transport in their cities which, like I also said, would work hand in hand to reduce the reliance on car ownership.
Things will change. A few city developments are being built with underground parking and car club vehicles available to residents instead of buying a car parking space. I know of at least one development sold with covenants preventing the owners owning / parking cars in the neighbourhood. Some cities in Europe are taking quite proactive approaches to creating better public space on streets with bike share, car share and reduced parking. This has benefits for air quality, safer cycling and pedestrian spaces plus it looks much nicer.
Obviously the divine right to park in the road outside your house has to be tackled to make it work. But it will be. Not quickly enough to change the passive aggressive noters soon. But it will happen...
Regarding TJ's point about the valuable public land being taken up by cars: through our local cycle campaign I've heard of a several cases where proposals for good cycle facilities were blocked because it would impact on resident's on-street parking.
And I'm sure everyone knows the pain of cycle lanes permanently blocked by parked cars.
My previous rented flat had a Car Club space outside it, the poor thing would just sit there while people bumped into it, stole the wing mirrors, wipers and wheel trims and occasionally it would get stolen! When I say it, I mean the two 500's, one Punto and an Aygo they worked through. I still go to the area when I get my haircut and either they have started using beaten up Peugeot 306's or they've given up 😆
That reminds me, one of my neighbours there couldn't understand why I rode to work every day when I had a perfectly useable car...
*smug mode*. Aah, the new pad has a 40m frontage, and a driveway for a fleet
Our row of terraces has a bus stop / double yellers at one end. I've mastered the art of parking millimeters from where they start which leaves just enough spaces for everyone to fit in, all is well.
I carshare or cycle most days (takes a bow), but if I drive then the utopian dream is shattered when I get back with me being left 3/4 of a space my end because of someone further up the line.
Takes days of musical chairs before equilibrium finally returns. How hard can it be to park in the same spot!
Read what I said again, I'm not proposing banning cars from the street
I have and the result of this policy is you will reduce the number of cars by them not having anywhere to park their car - you may not wish to call this a ban but it has that affect. Furthermore anyone rich enough to have a drive /buy space has a car and those who do not don't or are in a lottery where by those who have lived there the longest have a car parking spot.
Again I dont disagree with reducing the reliance on cars/ parking and improving public transport which can be excellent in built up conurbations and should be improved. However the result of any policy that limits on street parking can only harm those who are not wealthy enough to have a drive- ie poor people.
"However the result of any policy that limits on street parking can only harm those who are not wealthy enough to have a drive- ie poor people"
Poor people are already much less likely to have a car than wealthy people (cars cost money, after all). At the same time, they are also much more likely live near busy roads (rich people like owning cars, but they aren't so stupid as to want to live too close to the consequences of their cars) and suffer physically and mentally from the pollution, noise and general unpleasantness associated with that. Restricting parking or access to cars more generally would benefit, not harm, many or most poor people, in particular in cities (where parking is most scarce).
Furthermore the logic of arguing that ending what amount to large subsidies for car parking would be unfair because poor people would be less able to afford to have a car is bizarre. You realise that cars cost money to own and run and many poor people are already priced out from owning one? Does that mean we should fully subsidise all aspects of car ownership and operation, so that everyone can do it? Otherwise it's not fair on very poor people, right? Should we also subsidise every other thing that only rich people can do so that everyone can do it - private jet travel, yacht-owning, that kind of thing? Otherwise it's not fair on poor people.
Being rich by definition means that you can afford more than someone who is poor, and vice-versa. If you find that unfair, the solution isn't to subsidise everything so that everyone can consume it to an insanely wasteful extent, it's to reduce economic inequality. Or in the case of specific goods such as private car ownership, to ban it entirely. Either would work fine for me.
Reading on another forum today about bollards outside a house,a neighbour replaced them with the huge motorway ones, and filed them with post fix concrete, powder you add water to and it sets hard,neighbour who owned the originals came out next day to move his new inherited bollards and couldnt lift or move them, as they had concreted themselves to flor
I have not accepted the argument that it is a subsidised I have said that adding a new tax, cost or tariff to it will disproportionately fall on the poorFurthermore the logic of arguing that ending what amount to large subsidies for car parking would be unfair because poor people would be less able to afford to have a car is bizarre.
As this is inevitably the case you have decided to drift off into a tangent. TBH everything of yours i could cut and paste is just stuff i never said and its ludicrous to suggest that my point means I have argued we should all have our own yacht because rich people have them.
Deciding to curtail car use via a policy that will harm poor people is not the most fair way of achieving a goal we want to achieve. That is all I have said.
I dont see it as having argued for communism either which is the point you seem to have addressed rather than the point i made.
I think parts of Japan have a system whereby you have to demonstrate you have space to store a car before you can buy one.
We need someone to invent a fast, cheap pollution free urban transport vehicle that is simple enough to be operated by an 8 year old, and small enough that it takes up less than 1/5 of a cars footprint.
I have said that adding a new tax, cost or tariff to it will disproportionately fall on the poor
*sigh* none of which have been proposed. It's a list, first come first served. No money changes hands. In any given area the income levels will be broadly similar as a rule so I'm not sure where you get this idea from that on problem parking streets the rich will get all the spots whilst the poor are priced out this imaginary market.
As for the "premium" of a house with a parking space, suburbs are already more expensive to move into than a terraced street of two up two downs so again, this seems to be an entirely imagined problem.
This doesn't harm poor people, it harms people who have far too many bloody cars. In my street alone it has gone from parking on one side to a full on quarter mile capilliary in the five years since I moved here, nothing to do with public transport changing (still as crap as it always was) but more people getting cars with nowhere to park the damn things!
Where do you live squirrelling? Largs IIRC?
My street is the opposite, rammed during the day with shoppers and office staff, usually only 2 or 3 cars at night as most folks moved so close to town to get rid of a car, or they didn't drive in the first place.
Local council started 4 new traffic wardens a couple of years back, but to be honest they have too big a patch to be effective. New parking scheme is 45 quid per year per car, I have a drive so don't really need one, but I'll buy one for visitors etc.
Never understood note writing,
Sorry, replying three pages later! This mainly applied to my situation. I can normally see people parking a couple of inches from my door and in my experience have found talking works better. Most people are actually polite and just don't seem to realise blocking my front door or sitting there at 23:00 with music blasting is a problem. Lots of folk are really self absorbed. They usually move along / turn music down and apologise or move the car off the pavement when asked.
I've only had three people get arsey with me in five years. They still moved though after warnings about things possibly falling out of windows 🙂 one guy once parked literally three inch from my door. I saw him coming back up the road and decided it was a great time to go for a ride. Got the bike out at shoulder height and rolled it over the bonnet whilst saying a cheery good morning and squeezing myself around the car. His face was a picture!
I'm honestly not that bothered about people parking outside on the double yellows. It's when they choose to park entirely on the footpath and make loads of noise that it bothers me. Doesn't help having an unnecessarily huge bit of footpath outside our door. It's like a magnet to people looking for parking.
Intolerance is clearly king - Blimey 😯
I used to park in street by train station - perfectly legal - but I realised that it pissed the residents off a lot especially given the early starts of commuters like me. So now pay and park in the CP at the station and no one is upset. My more tight arsed friends still piss the resident off which seems a bit unnecessary. Still at least that means there are spaces in the CP 😉
We have disabled space wars in my street. It is a one way street so parking on side only, and a through road in an area in the older part of the town, housing built around 1830s. Not enough spaces for everyone to park, and lots of older people. The council has some kind of limit on how many disabled spaces are allowed, so some have taken to making what I can only describe as "ghetto" disabled spaces, putting up their own signs outside their houses. There are a couple of legit spaces, and I have heard stand-up shouting matches between the neighbours along the lines "its my space, not its not, its outside my house, its outside my house too etc etc". Funny but sad. I didn't wait to see if they went for each other with their walking frames.
My bugbear is people who can't park carefully and not take up huge spaces. Got a Range Rover ? Drive it in forwards and take up two car spaces, you deserve it. Grrrr. And yes, I have left notes asking them to park with more consideration for their neighbours. Shoot me !
*sigh* none of which have been proposed. It's a list, first come first served.
SIGH the only people on the list are poor as no one rich is on the list because they have a drive; it ONLY applies to poor people.
I have no idea why you think i have said thisI'm not sure where you get this idea from that on problem parking streets the rich will get all the spots whilst the poor are priced out this imaginary market.
Rich people wont be on the list as they have drives.Poor people have houses without drives and they are the only ones on the list. Is there a certain number of times i need to say this for you to get it?
Someone rich could have 35 cars as long as they can park them on their land so no. It harms those who dont have land to park their car which is poorer people as land is expensive.This doesn't harm poor people, it harms people who have far too many bloody cars
Hopefully repeating the point has worked
SIGH the only people on the list are poor as no one rich is on the list because they have a drive; it ONLY applies to poor people.
What's your defintion of rich?
[url= http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-40738011.html ]North of England £750k no parking[/url]
Is there a certain number of times i need to say this for you to get it?
You can say it as many times as you like. You will still be wrong. #junkyfact 🙂
Have i missed the part where a car was a basic human right afforded to all.
Have i missed the part where a car was a basic human right afforded to all.
In the West they almost are.
What Englishman will give his mind to politics as long as he can afford to keep a motor car?
George Bernard Shaw.
Cars keep the masses happy.
are - or assumed to be ?
You can say it as many times as you like. You will still be wrong. #junkyfact
yes its definitely not true that poorer people, in general, dont have fewer drives /parking spaces/land in comparison to the rich and houses with garages and drives dont, in general, cost more than houses without them 🙄
Your point, hilarious though it clearly is, is false.
Is there nothing on here we wont bicker over?
No matter how childish you wish to be, its a lot isnt it 😉 - the basic point that, generally, houses with parking cost more than houses without will remain true and therefore any policy to restrict on street parking will fall disproportionately on poor people
Anyone who can do some basic maths can see this is undeniably true.
Its not even a debatable point except on STW
You are right that in general poorer people will tend to live in smaller houses which are more likely not to have a drive.
Your post didn't say that.
it ONLY applies to poor people.
The emphasis on ONLY was yours.
That simply isn't true.
You constantly correct people on here about "facts"! This is just another #junkyfact.
Junkyard
Why should my taxes as a non car owner subsidise those who own cars?
I have no issues with subsidising essentials such as housing but luxuries such as cars that have a negative effect on my quality of life?
I only correct jamby on that point. I doubt even you wish to defend him on his accuracy- you certainly never object when i say it to him.
I dont think I am a poster who posts completely false statements and then ignores the evidence so I think that is a bit weak.
Probably fair to say I should have used more precise language and said very few rich people will be impacted by this and the overwhelming majority will be poor and by overwhelming i mean 99%+
Every other post just says it falls disproportionately on the poor which is true
Are you saying you agree with this assesment and just object to the word ONLY?
I have not accepted they do?Why should my taxes as a non car owner subsidise those who own cars?
Why should my taxes subsidise ill people?
Its a society it makes decisions some you agree with some you dont.
Most [s]people[/s]Households* have a car in the UK is probably the reason. Unfortunately we dont get tax bills based on what we sue or what we like to fund.
* i googled it gobby 😀 and deduced from this http://www.poverty.org.uk/75/index.shtml
NB gobby is not meant as a pejorative but only as an abbreviation for clarity
I agree with the subsequent re-assessment.
The word ONLY is a pretty key part of the statement.
However, it's a bit of a moot point, it's completely obvious that the control and management of ANY resource that was previously freely available to all, will effect the poor more than the rich.
There are lots of "rich" people who have to park on the street and need a car to earn a living. They would also be affected.
I dont think there are lots there are a few % wis. I cannot think of any expensive area locally to me that ONLY 😉 has on street parking
I assume this is true in most areas.
Probably requires historic towns like York/Harrogate up North and expensive places like Bath and London for it to be true but not certain
Edinburgh has some [b]very[/b] expensive houses with on-street parking only (thinking round the New Town, top of the Royal Mile etc but I'm sure there are more).
Anyways, when did UK society split into Rich and Poor. I'm sure the vast majority of us lie somewhere in the middle.
Probably requires historic towns like York/Harrogate up North and expensive places like Bath and London for it to be true but not certain
Wrong. Again.
[url= http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61770137.html ]Newcastle £825k no parking[/url]
Also, there are loads of houses that only have a single garage or space for one car, I guess that the majority of working households have at least 2 cars, so some on-street parking is necessary.
With property prices still through the roof, adults remain at the family home much later, I and the majority of my mates bought houses in our 20's. Doesn't happen much now.
Edit - Just noticed a single garage on the floor plan, however, as above, I would wager my house on the fact they will have multiple cars.
Junky - you're talking about across a whole country, I'm talking about things on a street by street basis. So it doesn't matter if we're talking about Govan, New Town or Putney - areas where parking is at a premium will all be equally affected regardless of class. It's about allocating resources(in this case space) as equally as possible rather than the present free for all we find ourselves in.
Besides which, these areas already typically charge for resident parking permits. My proposal is simply to ration these existing permits so as to distribute them equally.
I think what's happened is you're getting bogged down in semantics over what you think I mean rather that what I'm actually saying. There have been numerous studies proving that what I propose would bring a net benefit (albeit most of these are regarding the complete elimination of cars).
Problem is Dave.
The charges start with just an admin fee.....and trn the council's pump the fees up wrn they get the agreement from residence. Cash cow.
It happens with alarming regularity round ere . Look outside rgu in Aberdeen. 45 quid a car.
Junkyard
Can I have ten square metres of public land for my exclusive use then?
Bloody hell, this went tedious in the last few hours 😥
Bring back the stories of nutcase neighbours and stupidity.
and remember everyone, in a battle of stupid vs. stupid - stupid always wins.