OK, they may have been very embarrassed about it. They may quite legitimately have had no money on them - I don't imagine many people take a bank card or a load of cash up Scafell..
I'd be more inclined to believe that when you're away from home you are more likely to have your wallet / cards / apple pay on you. I think the hotel are perfectly justified in asking for a payment to cover their costs.
When skint (and sometimes not skint at all) I've spent the night in police cells, church porches, under bridges, in bus shelters, raliway stations, the metro, toilets, football stadiums, covered areas in sports grounds, under a balcony, closed campsite shelters... in all sorts of weather. I can't say I slept in all of them and keep fit exercises at regular intervals were often necessary to stay warm. They could have asked where the members of the rescue team were going and to be dropped off at the toilets, campsite, bus shelter or anywhere dry. But I wouldn't have stayed in a hotel I didn't intend to pay for.
That said I won't be staying in that hotel as they don't come out of this well either.
They claimed to have left their cash in the tent. Yeah, right. They didn't even offer any thanks.
Not sure why the hotel should be expected to provide a room for free.
They had chance to pay, chose not to, and now it's come back to bite them on the arse.
That said I won't be staying in that hotel as they don't come out of this well either.
I seriously doubt you'd be staying at the Wasdale Head with or without this incident.
From the story, the hotel did what it does and provided accommodation etc and it's not unreasonable to expect to be paid for this UNLESS the two agreed otherwise before staying there. It doesn't sound like they did this and then to cap it off, they did a runner.
If you can't afford to stay somewhere, don't stay there (or agree alternatives in advance). Or do we all now eat in restaurants and stay in hotels etc then decide we can't afford to after the event?
That said I won't be staying in that hotel as they don't come out of this well either.
I think the money is almost incidental. From the sound of things (and I admit I'm getting all this from the BBC article), the rescued walkers were just knobs.
You'd offer the hotel *something*. Even if you were unable to pay £130 (and I get that, I've been poor enough to afford a weekend away in the Lakes in a tent but absolutely unable to add on £130), you'd still explain yourself, apologise, thank the hotel and offer to pay it back somehow.
To not even thank them and to behave the way they did is the main issue, not the money (although yes, the hotel will certainly have incurred costs that they weren't expecting). If they offered the stay as a freebie and word got out, I think it could quite easily result in all sorts of folk knocking on at 10pm claiming to be stranded / lost / hurt and could they please stay the night oh and they have no money, is that OK. I bet there's a strong element of preventing future pisstaking going on as well.
Yes we'll help anyone in distress but yes, you'll be expected to pay for it. It'd be different if you just got chucked in the corner of a haybarn for the night but a freebie in a 4* hotel when every other guest has paid £150+ isn't practical.
You'd offer the hotel *something*. Even if you were unable to pay £130
They did try to negotiate the price according to the article.
We didn't need to know about all this, it's just not news. I don't know how the BBC got wind of it. Was it the mountain rescue? In which case I'm a little disappointed in them. Was it the hotel?
So someone is making a story of it of which we don't have the version of those concerned.
Overall none of those involved have come out of it well. If we believe the story then the walkers' behaviour was comtemptible. However the attitude of mountain rescue and the hotel making a big story of it doesn't impress either. People who impress me help people in need without needing to glorify it or vilify the people who needed help. I have never stayed in a hotel that cost £139 in today's money and I've stayed in some nice places.
It's an interesting comparison with the attitude of the Gendarmes (the local mountain resue) who wouldn't leave people out in the cold or force them off onto a hotel. They'd be left at the hospital, dropped off at a safe dry place or looked after till the morning and they wouldn't get a bill despite what some on other threads claim.
So:
contemptible walkers
profiteering hotel
rescue team abandonning victims to a fate they couldn't afford.
No winners.
Hotel owner charging £130 for accommodating the rescued pair doesn’t sit well with me as it’s not as if they planned to stay or the hotel owner incurred that level of expense.
I doubt they make a vast profit.
Yes the actual opportunity cost to them of selling the room was probably £10 (20 minutes labour and a few pence electricity to do the laundry?), but that's not the cost of doing business, they've still got to run the business and pay all the overheads 365 days a year, whether all 9 rooms are full, or completely empty. £130 is what they've settled on to make a viable living out of it whether that's attracting customers booking months in advance, or a couple of desperate people caught out by the weather / their car boke down / whatever. That £60* "profit" then has to heat the room and pay wages until it's next used, which in a wet and miserable January might be a while.
*obviously just an estimate after deducting VAT and tax
It's an interesting comparison with the attitude of the Gendarmes (the local mountain resue) who wouldn't leave people out in the cold or force them off onto a hotel.
They weren't forced into a hotel, they're adults not trafficked victims. The gendarmes would be doing the job they are paid to do, completely different to a volunteer MTR team.
I have never stayed in a hotel that cost £139 in today's money and I've stayed in some nice places.
Thanks for sharing that slightly random morcel probably explains why you've slept in so many bus shelters, wheelie bins and doorways. £139 for a room is pretty reasonable and if it was £139 for two that's cheap.
I think its quite plausible that was a lot of money for them even tho its cheap for a highland hotel
Personally I suspect a lot of miscommunication at the heart of this
Personally I suspect a lot of miscommunication at the heart of this
I think you're right. Somehow it doesn't pass the smell test. Taken at face value, maybe the hotel has the "right" to charge full room rate, especially in order to respect guests already there who are paying that rate, but I do think there is an element of "karma" - if they showed some generosity now they'd be rewarded later 🙂
I think you're being very charitable Poly. They could afford the fuel etc to get to the Lakes and the time to go. They also (according to the report) had the capacity to bargain and haggle on pricing/freebies etc. I'd be much more more inclined to be as charitable if the story was; 'They were taken to the Wasdale Head but explained were unable to meet the bill so left/sat outside/were offered complimentary accommodation/something else etc'.
Sounds like they got caught out (could happen to us all) then behaved badly after the event.
Agree with this. Extenuating circumstances are of course always possible, but I reckon 99.9% of the time these things are exactly what they look like and there's no need to go reaching for excuses for the people involved. It's not like over the last few years there haven't been plenty of jaw-dropping examples of really pi$$ poor behaviour in the outdoors so in this case I'm happy to go with IMO the overwhelmingly most likely explanation.
The hotel aren't obliged to hand out freebies to idiots who are under prepared. The fact they tried to get a free breakfast out of the hotel when they clearly had zero intention to pay tells you all you need to know about this pair
I have never stayed in a hotel that cost £139 in today's money and I've stayed in some nice places.
Perhaps nicer than your usual toilets and bus shelters, but 130 quid for a decent hotel in scotland for 2 folks is more than reasonable.
Personally I suspect a lot of miscommunication at the heart of this
I think you're right. Somehow it doesn't pass the smell test. Taken at face value, maybe the hotel has the "right" to charge full room rate, especially in order to respect guests already there who are paying that rate, but I do think there is an element of "karma" - if they showed some generosity now they'd be rewarded later 🙂
Thats not what I meant - the hotel is perfectly within their rights to charge what is a cheap rate. I do wonder if the blokes tired, late at night clearly understood they would have to pay.
Its well possible they did not have the money to pay
I do wonder if the blokes tired, late at night clearly understood they would have to pay.
Its well possible they did not have the money to pay
Both entirely possible.
In that situation would you wake up in the morning and push for a breakfast?
You cock up in the mountains in France and they get you to a place of safety, it's not charity that gets you down, it's someone who is charging you a few hundred unless you've taken out insurance.
Why are people on here giving the MRT a hard time for this instance - very poor show. MRT worked on their own time to save these 2 chancers, and got zero thanks, arranged a place of safety and shelter, and the chancers took the pi$$. I am sure all of us on here - we'd all be pretty grateful for having our lives saved and make it clear we were thankful, and not run off like dine and dash.
Personally I suspect a lot of miscommunication at the heart of this
Absolutely. We're basically getting a lot of hearsay and trying to judge folk on incomplete information. I don't know how common it is for MRT to leave folk at that (or any) hotel, I don't know what state the walkers were in, I don't know what appropriate facilities the hotel could have offered in those circumstances. It might have been as simple as "you can wait in the bar until morning" or it could have been "would you like a twin room, a hot shower, bathrobes and breakfast"
At the moment, the two walkers don't come out of it well, but neither does the hotel.
Generally speaking MRT callout reports tend to end with "casualty taken to hospital" or "party returned to their vehicle" so I'm wondering how these two arrived for their walk.
I don't imagine many people take a bank card up Scafell..
They claimed to have left their cash in the tent.
My wallet, cards and iPhone are in waterproof bag in my sac.
Generally speaking MRT callout reports tend to end with "casualty taken to hospital" or "party returned to their vehicle" so I'm wondering how these two arrived for their walk.
I don't imagine many people take a bank card up Scafell..
They claimed to have left their cash in the tent.
My wallet, cards and iPhone are in waterproof bag in my sac.
Of course they are (as are mine) and if you were dragged off something and then needed overnight accommodation, I'm sure you'd stump up - as most right minded/sane citizens would. These two chancers sound like they wanted it all - for free.
there's some more actual detail here: grough — Lake District team saddled with hotel bill after rescued walkers fail to pay
remember it was on the 29th December and Wasdale is pretty busy at that time of year.
“When they were safely returned to the valley bottom, wet and hungry in the early hours of the next day, Steve the bar manager at the Wasdale Head Inn kindly agreed to stay up, provide some snacks and let the two men stay in one of the unoccupied apartments at a significant 35 per cent reduced rate.
In summary:
* Hotel owner stayed up until the walkers were off the mountain
* Hotel offered and they agreed to pay for a room at a discounted rate
* walkers wandered off with the head torches and the hotel offered to re-imburse mountain rescue.
I'm not seeing that the hotel were anything but accommodating.
I don't imagine many people take a bank card up Scafell.
I wouldn't go anywhere without a bank card. And i wouldn't go into the hills without a spare note or two in case of emergency.
I find it odd that people are saying "well, we don't have the walkers' side of the story." This is true, but an obvious solution presents itself.
They may quite legitimately have had no money on them - I don't imagine many people take a bank card or a load of cash up Scafell...
Really? Seriously, you can’t imagine, in this day and age, that someone would be wandering around without a credit card/debit card/phone with Apple Pay or equivalent? Cash, yes, while I actually have £30 in cash in my wallet at the moment, that’s most unusual, I rarely carry cash, I rely on my bank debit card in my wallet, or more often a payment system on my phone, Apple Pay in my case. For many people it’s via a smart watch. But to say you can’t imagine someone traveling some distance without any payment app or equivalent is stretching the bounds of possibility to breaking point.
How the actual **** did they manage to get there in the first place? Stow away in a delivery truck? Hitch a ride?
Really! *rollseyes*
My wallet, cards and iPhone are in waterproof bag in my sac.
My iPhone, and my wallet are both rated to IP67 waterproof, so unless I ended up in Windermere or Derwent Water, in which case I’m really in a world of trouble, it’s probably not going to be an issue being able to pay.
Those two are idiots who went out into the hills totally unprepared, then happily expected other people to help them out for free.
Sadly, the world is full of freeloaders who don’t expect to have to pay for their mistakes, but will expect others to be out of pocket on their behalf.
I'm not seeing that the hotel were anything but accommodating.
I’ve no gripe with that - the hotel did what hotels do: provide paid for accommodation. However the hotel do make a big marketing push out of their relationship with the team and charge every guest £1 as a voluntary donation to the team. I’m not sure how many of their guests would look kindly on them charging the MRT for the bad antics of their casualties. Had I been running the hotel I’d have refused the MRTs offer of payment but asked the cops (who called the MRT out) to track them down and either get payment or prosecute.
As it happens the two “chancers” have probably inadvertently raised more money for the team than any individual will this year!
I don’t think “what we would have done” is necessarily the right benchmark. Nobody here is going to have no money or not be able to borrow money from friend/family to repay. There are people who really don’t have £130 (the MRT report said they were on the bus and camping; and frankly the sort of person who goes up hills in the lakes in December with a crutch might be a clue!). Rational people with no money have sensible discussions with the rescuers or the hotel about their predicament. But if you think the alternative is being thrown out in the cold or causing the rescue team more hassle at 2am then perhaps you don’t act rationally. I would not be surprising to me if the MRT went into autopilot and arranged the hotel manager to stay up before actually asking the casualties if they had any money. Once you are down in the valley and someone has organised a hotel it’s even more embarrassing to explain you don’t have money. You’re cold, you’re tired and you have problem with an easy but morally wrong solution. Who knows what the conversation was in the morning, the quote in slackboys link is at least 2nd hand information but if you were being generous to the casualties by this point the hotel knew the money was not getting paid immediately and perhaps weren’t that nice to their new “customers”. Again mature people with enough money to buy nice bikes still send them the cash but depending on the attitude of the hotelier I can see some “guests” saying - **** him, be only had 6hrs sleep and didn’t include breakfast. If like Edukator you’ve never spent £130 a night on a hotel you might feel a bit pissed off.
if I then found myself as “the story” on the BBC I’d have quietly anonymously donated the £130 - because nothing good can come of being outed! Although I’m actually a little surprised they’ve not energed for their 15 minutes of fame to tell their side of the story!
This quote from slackboy’s link sounds to me like the MRT and hotel actually knew when they arrived that payment might be a problem:
”However, as we had promised to cover any loss if the walkers failed pay, we do still feel obliged to reimburse the hotel from our own funds”
Now I can imagine that was a conversation that took place in front of the walkers - precisely because they could sense these two were chancers and/or broke and by saying the MRT will be on the hook if they don’t pay they expected more moral pressure than if it was just the hotel losing out. MRTs are made up of nice people - perhaps they are a bit naive though if they were genuinely surprised that they needed to have this conversation with the hotel and then it turned out the very scenario they discussed happened.
We're basically getting a lot of hearsay and trying to judge folk on incomplete information.
That could be easily fixed. This story has been in the news for a week and the fact that the other side of the story has not been told suggests to me there isn't very much of an other side.
...or just that they don't want to engage with a virtual pitchfork-waving mob calling them scammers, idiots, scumbags without knowing the full story?
They're already being labelled as scumbags, if they feel they dont deserve the label then I think they'd want to say why.
...or just that they don't want to engage with a virtual pitchfork-waving mob calling them scammers, idiots, scumbags without knowing the full story?
My thought was "why would you even bother coming forward now?"
To sell your exclusive story and come out of this a few thousand in pocket 😉
There are people who really don’t have £130 (the MRT report said they were on the bus and camping; and frankly the sort of person who goes up hills in the lakes in December with a crutch might be a clue!). Rational people with no money have sensible discussions with the rescuers or the hotel about their predicament. But if you think the alternative is being thrown out in the cold or causing the rescue team more hassle at 2am then perhaps you don’t act rationally.
That's more or less what I was trying to say ^^ when I said that I could imagine a scenario where they didn't have an immediate means of payment (not everyone has Google / Apple Pay, not everyone takes a bank card up a mountain although apparently I'm alone in thinking that!) and not everyone has £130 available to drop at a moment's notice on an unexpected bill (again, I seem to be in a minority on that view but clearly everyone on here is more than wealthy enough...)
And to everyone saying that of course you have a means of payment on you at all times - well if they did and they lied about it to avoid paying their bill, that's even worse, surely?
The room was empty.
The people who were rescued could have been upfront if they couldn't afford to stay.
If it was my hotel I would have let them stay given them breakfast and suggested they could donate a suitable amount to the mrt if they could afford it.
Lots of other ways for this to play out.
not everyone has £130 available to drop at a moment's notice on an unexpected bill (again, I seem to be in a minority on that view but clearly everyone on here is more than wealthy enough...)
We can't be certain of course, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that someone travelling halfway across the country from the richest city in the UK probably isn't on the breadline.
I put myself in the shoes of someone who has been rescued, cold, probably a bit shook up. I'm also skint. So when I end up in a warm hotel, I may be so desperate I just keep quiet even if I know I can't afford 130 quid, because otherwise I'll be back out on the steet in the cold..
So yes I can see why at that moment, they may have just gone along with things out of self preservation
But then i wake up, in a warm bed, I'm safe. I'm super grateful but can't afford to pay. I'm not sure what id do, but I know what i wouldn't do...try to get myself a free breakfast.
Even if you didn't have 130 quid in your bank account, the very least a decent person would do is arrange to make payment when you can afford to. It's 65 quid each ffs, it's not as if they've run up thousands of debt.
I can't believe folks are making excuses for this pair tbh. There is no excuse for it. And likewise I struggle to see why 'the hotel looks bad'
Anyway, why were they wanting transport out of the valley? Shouldn't they have been heading back up the hill to retrieve their tent and the money that was apparently in it?
Shouldn't they have been heading back up the hill to retrieve their tent and the money that was apparently in it?
Exactly, something here just doesn't stack up 🤔
Anyway, why were they wanting transport out of the valley? Shouldn't they have been heading back up the hill to retrieve their tent and the money that was apparently in it?
They (well, the news article) said the tent was on Green Gable - which is 5km of so north of Scafell over towards Seathwaite with the only way to it being back over Scafell and the long way around or going over Great Gable. It's an arduous hike at the best of times.
And it's a very long way around by road - you'd have to go south along Wast Water, over Hardknott and Wrynose Passes, through Elterwater and then up the A road to Keswick then all the way south again to Seatoller before turning off for Seathwaite.
If they were genuinely camped at Green Gable, the way you'd get to that point by vehicle is from Keswick, down to Seatoller, turn left. Whatever option you choose, it's not a 10-minute jog back to the tent to get the supposed money.
Being rescued from Scafell, the only easy option to get back to anything approaching amenities is down to Wasdale Head which is how they ended up there.
Seriously, you can’t imagine, in this day and age, that someone would be wandering around without a credit card/debit card/phone with Apple Pay or equivalent?
More often than not, me. I'm going up a mountain not to the Mall. I very often don't have a phone so the pair are one up on me - that's why I don't post many pics on the Today's Photo thread, I only have pics when someone else takes them. I hitch or catch a bus (2e coin) to the hills and go walkies. Everything I need is in my bag, when I get back to a road I stick my thumb out and usually the first, second or third car stops - no cars, I just walk. I usually have a 20e note and a few coins, that's it.
I'm not the only one, travelling on Flixbus I've lent people my phone to travellers to make calls and staying in Compostelle albergés lent my phone to phone-less pilgrims. 7% of French people over 15 don't have a phone or Internet; old people and poor people.
On one Compostelle walk I met a Danish guy who was doing the walk with no cash phone or anything, he was relying on the "generosity" of people along the way. Not my scene, I'm not a scrounger but it worked for him, quite well in fact as we noticed he was walking more and more with a girl who decided she liked him a lot and started paying his way. I'll happily sleep out but I'm not prepared to hang around bar tables like a dog begging. Supermarket bins at closing time used to be a great source of fruit and veg and out of date food - that's stopped.
I see things are taking a while to appear.
* Hotel owner stayed up until the walkers were off the mountain
* Hotel offered and they agreed to pay for a room at a discounted rate
* walkers wandered off with the head torches and the hotel offered to re-imburse mountain rescue.
So
good job mountain rescue- the walkers didn't die
Good job hotel- going out of their way to accommodate the walkers.
Poor job walkers.
I've only been out on two occasions where I thought I might have to call mountain rescue. The idea of being another idiot out in the hills unprepared was pretty high in my mind as conditions worsened.
When two of your mates were packing ice axes but a third mate is wearing borrowed thin gloves and trainers but has borrowed a pair of boots 3 sizes two small that should have been the warning.
Not when cameras stored working up the top because it was -??C and then a fourth mate revealed he was scared of heights.
As the snow came in visibility dropped to 10m , people started shaking with fear and cold, a boulder fell down that would have taken out someone's ribs if it hadn't been fended off, we were kicking steps in the snow that were slipping and not holding my weight....
When two of your mates were packing ice axes but a third mate is wearing borrowed thin gloves and trainers but has borrowed a pair of boots 3 sizes two small that should have been the warning.
I know someone who was having a work go at the Yorkshire three peaks. One of the team was seen cutting the tags off her boots in the car park as they were about to set off…
They didn’t make it round.
I can't believe folks are making excuses for this pair tbh. There is no excuse for it. And likewise I struggle to see why 'the hotel looks bad'
Same. My mind is boggled.
They (well, the news article) said the tent was on Green Gable - which is 5km of so north of Scafell over towards Seathwaite with the only way to it being back over Scafell and the long way around or going over Great Gable. It's an arduous hike at the best of times.
I can't imagine taking either of those routes. Up Moses Trod to Sty Head and then Aaron Slack would do it and in a lot less time than getting transport round to Borrowdale. Then stroll off down to Honister. Of course it's possible conditions weren't suitable. Maybe their tent and money are still up there. Or maybe not.
