I put myself in the shoes of someone who has been rescued, cold, probably a bit shook up. I'm also skint. So when I end up in a warm hotel, I may be so desperate I just keep quiet even if I know I can't afford 130 quid, because otherwise I'll be back out on the steet in the cold..
So yes I can see why at that moment, they may have just gone along with things out of self preservation
But then i wake up, in a warm bed, I'm safe. I'm super grateful but can't afford to pay. I'm not sure what id do, but I know what i wouldn't do...try to get myself a free breakfast.
Even if you didn't have 130 quid in your bank account, the very least a decent person would do is arrange to make payment when you can afford to. It's 65 quid each ffs, it's not as if they've run up thousands of debt.
I can't believe folks are making excuses for this pair tbh. There is no excuse for it. And likewise I struggle to see why 'the hotel looks bad'
Anyway, why were they wanting transport out of the valley? Shouldn't they have been heading back up the hill to retrieve their tent and the money that was apparently in it?
Shouldn't they have been heading back up the hill to retrieve their tent and the money that was apparently in it?
Exactly, something here just doesn't stack up 🤔
Anyway, why were they wanting transport out of the valley? Shouldn't they have been heading back up the hill to retrieve their tent and the money that was apparently in it?
They (well, the news article) said the tent was on Green Gable - which is 5km of so north of Scafell over towards Seathwaite with the only way to it being back over Scafell and the long way around or going over Great Gable. It's an arduous hike at the best of times.
And it's a very long way around by road - you'd have to go south along Wast Water, over Hardknott and Wrynose Passes, through Elterwater and then up the A road to Keswick then all the way south again to Seatoller before turning off for Seathwaite.
If they were genuinely camped at Green Gable, the way you'd get to that point by vehicle is from Keswick, down to Seatoller, turn left. Whatever option you choose, it's not a 10-minute jog back to the tent to get the supposed money.
Being rescued from Scafell, the only easy option to get back to anything approaching amenities is down to Wasdale Head which is how they ended up there.
Seriously, you can’t imagine, in this day and age, that someone would be wandering around without a credit card/debit card/phone with Apple Pay or equivalent?
More often than not, me. I'm going up a mountain not to the Mall. I very often don't have a phone so the pair are one up on me - that's why I don't post many pics on the Today's Photo thread, I only have pics when someone else takes them. I hitch or catch a bus (2e coin) to the hills and go walkies. Everything I need is in my bag, when I get back to a road I stick my thumb out and usually the first, second or third car stops - no cars, I just walk. I usually have a 20e note and a few coins, that's it.
I'm not the only one, travelling on Flixbus I've lent people my phone to travellers to make calls and staying in Compostelle albergés lent my phone to phone-less pilgrims. 7% of French people over 15 don't have a phone or Internet; old people and poor people.
On one Compostelle walk I met a Danish guy who was doing the walk with no cash phone or anything, he was relying on the "generosity" of people along the way. Not my scene, I'm not a scrounger but it worked for him, quite well in fact as we noticed he was walking more and more with a girl who decided she liked him a lot and started paying his way. I'll happily sleep out but I'm not prepared to hang around bar tables like a dog begging. Supermarket bins at closing time used to be a great source of fruit and veg and out of date food - that's stopped.
I see things are taking a while to appear.
* Hotel owner stayed up until the walkers were off the mountain
* Hotel offered and they agreed to pay for a room at a discounted rate
* walkers wandered off with the head torches and the hotel offered to re-imburse mountain rescue.
So
good job mountain rescue- the walkers didn't die
Good job hotel- going out of their way to accommodate the walkers.
Poor job walkers.
I've only been out on two occasions where I thought I might have to call mountain rescue. The idea of being another idiot out in the hills unprepared was pretty high in my mind as conditions worsened.
When two of your mates were packing ice axes but a third mate is wearing borrowed thin gloves and trainers but has borrowed a pair of boots 3 sizes two small that should have been the warning.
Not when cameras stored working up the top because it was -??C and then a fourth mate revealed he was scared of heights.
As the snow came in visibility dropped to 10m , people started shaking with fear and cold, a boulder fell down that would have taken out someone's ribs if it hadn't been fended off, we were kicking steps in the snow that were slipping and not holding my weight....
When two of your mates were packing ice axes but a third mate is wearing borrowed thin gloves and trainers but has borrowed a pair of boots 3 sizes two small that should have been the warning.
I know someone who was having a work go at the Yorkshire three peaks. One of the team was seen cutting the tags off her boots in the car park as they were about to set off…
They didn’t make it round.
I can't believe folks are making excuses for this pair tbh. There is no excuse for it. And likewise I struggle to see why 'the hotel looks bad'
Same. My mind is boggled.
They (well, the news article) said the tent was on Green Gable - which is 5km of so north of Scafell over towards Seathwaite with the only way to it being back over Scafell and the long way around or going over Great Gable. It's an arduous hike at the best of times.
I can't imagine taking either of those routes. Up Moses Trod to Sty Head and then Aaron Slack would do it and in a lot less time than getting transport round to Borrowdale. Then stroll off down to Honister. Of course it's possible conditions weren't suitable. Maybe their tent and money are still up there. Or maybe not.
As stated earlier, it wasn't their tent. It was some poor ****er after a quiet night on the hill who ended up with them under his flysheet until MRT turned up to handhold them back into Wasdale.
Ah my mistake, so they left their money in someone else's tent. Perhaps the good samaritan has made off with it.
Interesting comparing this thread with the Alpkit one on which only two of us mentioned the fact creditors providing services, and goods had been left high and dry for thousands. In the mean time the Alpkit owners had been paying themselves knowing the business was losing money and doomed. Yet some people still love the Alpkit founders.
So big white collar crime (because I consider taking goods and services you know you'll never pay for just as criminal as not paying a hotel bill even if people can hide behind limited liability) for a million or so is fine on STW yet poverty stricken ramblers not paying a small (I don't condsider £139 a small amount when you're poor but several on here claim it is) unexpected hotel bill gets disproportionate hate.
So on STW rich people not paying thousands is fine because they're cool but poor people not paying £139 causes outrage.
In business the odd poor individual who bounced a cheque I wrote off with a shrug (bouncing the cheque was going to cost them nearly as much as the amount it was for), the serial bankrupt "business men" (con artists) who didn't pay were more of a problem.
In motorsport my sponsor had the biggest pin board you can buy completely covered with bounced cheques
they are anonymous, difficult to see why it would be a good idea to Streisand effect if by trying to engage the baying mob and this make your identity known.They're already being labelled as scumbags, if they feel they dont deserve the label then I think they'd want to say why.
No wilder than many of the other assumptions on the thread. Would you use an old crutch if you could afford walking poles and and ice axe? Would you set out in crap gear if you could afford good gear? Would you be without a tent if you could throw £700 at one that weighed next to nothing? Seems a reasonable assumption they were skint.
I did Great Gable in Winter in a donkey jacket which was quite handy solo down climbing the buttress end with no gear. Now I'd be covered in Rab, North face, have an 860gm tent and any hardware I thought necessary. And still I wouldn't be up there because I don't have the same enthusiasm or attitude now I can afford those things.
an odd conclusion to draw?not everyone has £130 available to drop at a moment's notice on an unexpected bill (again, I seem to be in a minority on that view but clearly everyone on here is more than wealthy enough...)
We can't be certain of course, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that someone travelling halfway across the country from the richest city in the UK probably isn't on the breadline.
I haven’t found anything which said where they came from - the only description was they were young lads?
but the last time I was in London there were people sleeping on the streets. The notion that nobody from big cities is on the breadline seems absurd. There’s plenty of affluent people wandering the hills in designer goretex but there’s always been a very wide demographic too, and bothies/wild camping are accessible with just your bus fare.
Would you use an old crutch if you could afford walking poles and and ice axe? ...Would you be without a tent if you could throw £700 at one that weighed next to nothing? Seems a reasonable assumption they were skint.
The crutch was because of an injury according to the BBC report, not in lieu of walking poles. Why would you carry any tent if you were planning on heading back to where your tent was?
I did Great Gable in Winter in a donkey jacket which was quite handy solo down climbing the buttress end with no gear
Swoon.
Kilo the "perfect" mountaineer wo does "verything" by the book swooning at me - flattered.
I haven’t found anything which said where they came from - the only description was they were young lads?
but the last time I was in London there were people sleeping on the streets. The notion that nobody from big cities is on the breadline seems absurd.
It said in the original report that they'd travelled up from London, I think? I certainly read it somewhere.
These people sleeping on the streets in London, do they commonly take holidays up North? Got myself twenty quid in 10p bits in a paper cup, I'm off on the National Express to Penrith?
If we're all playing Wild Speculations, it seems far more likely to me that they were simply arseholes. Going on a jolly with little gear or preparation sounds like student-level behaviour rather than fiscal destitution; when I was a student we could somehow afford beer but not toilet rolls. Absolutely no-one runs out and buys walking poles and a pair of ice axes for a one-off jaunt up a hill, you'd probably borrow a mate's tent even. All of this I can understand. Taking advantage of people helping you in a crisis of your own creation and then going to ground however, that's not poverty, that's a dick move. An anonymous letter of thanks/apology is the least anyone with any moral fortitude would do.
C'mon, let's try and keep it civilised please.
If the story is true, ie 2 bods did a runner without paying after being rescued and made no attempt to highlight their inability to pay in advance - IF. That's pretty indefensible isn't it?
All the other bits n bobs doesn't matter- where they came from, what colour socks they wore, if they had phones/cards/cash etc. Accepting a service and making off is at best bilking regardless of their motivation.
Heard on the news there was many donations to the accommodation and towards the rescue team. Good.
A few people saying maybe they didn't the cash for the accommodation? OK, so explain that before you leave, give them your details and pay it when you get home. It's not hard is it?
when I was a student we could somehow afford beer but not toilet rolls
The bog roll is free in the union bar toilets, the beer isn't.
Interesting comparing this thread with the Alpkit one on which only two of us mentioned the fact creditors providing services, and goods had been left high and dry for thousands. In the mean time the Alpkit owners had been paying themselves knowing the business was losing money and doomed. Yet some people still love the Alpkit founders.
So big white collar crime (because I consider taking goods and services you know you'll never pay for just as criminal as not paying a hotel bill even if people can hide behind limited liability) for a million or so is fine on STW yet poverty stricken ramblers not paying a small (I don't condsider £139 a small amount when you're poor but several on here claim it is) unexpected hotel bill gets disproportionate hate.
So on STW rich people not paying thousands is fine because they're cool but poor people not paying £139 causes outrage.
In business the odd poor individual who bounced a cheque I wrote off with a shrug (bouncing the cheque was going to cost them nearly as much as the amount it was for), the serial bankrupt "business men" (con artists) who didn't pay were more of a problem.
In motorsport my sponsor had the biggest pin board you can buy completely covered with bounced cheques
Guess you'll be surprised that I can think both instances are wrong? I suspect I'm not alone in that.
Writing off huge (hell, even small) debts that were accrued when you know your company is in trouble doesnt sit well with me at all.
Running off without paying a bill you've accrued, providing false contact details and stealing two headtorches that the VOLUNTEER rescue team leant to them is ALSO somethingg I would consider to be out of line in the extreme.
You can come up with as many imagined excuses as you like - I dont think you'll change many people's minds that they were wrong to behave as they did.
Maybe they do things different in France - sounds lovely if hotels give out free accomodation to people who bite off more than they can chew and comne unstuck and call for rescue.
Of course they'd have to pay for the rescue in France, no?
Genuine question for you, how does that work with no credit card etc? Is rescue refused? Or are the people involved in rescuing people from the mountains al Gendamres or similar so have the access to check that details given by the people needing help are accurate?
Si
I don't think so - I think you may have conflated two stories. There was a separate one about Londoners in Wales.I haven’t found anything which said where they came from - the only description was they were young lads?
but the last time I was in London there were people sleeping on the streets. The notion that nobody from big cities is on the breadline seems absurd.
It said in the original report that they'd travelled up from London, I think? I certainly read it somewhere.
I think you might have missed the point! You suggested nobody from London was "on the breadline", which seems unlikely - given there are people who couldn't afford the bus fare to the lakes; or perhaps you were saying no pair who didn't have £130 between them should even consider getting on public transport to the hills.These people sleeping on the streets in London, do they commonly take holidays up North? Got myself twenty quid in 10p bits in a paper cup, I'm off on the National Express to Penrith?
they aren't mutually exclusive. There are arseholes who are students, arseholes who are in work and arseholes out of work. There are students who are comfortably off, students who are broke but can wack another £130 on a c/card and students who are literally skint.If we're all playing Wild Speculations, it seems far more likely to me that they were simply arseholes. Going on a jolly with little gear or preparation sounds like student-level behaviour rather than fiscal destitution;
if you literally never found yourself in a situation where you couldn't access £130 you managed your finances better than I did (or many of my friends). I walked 5 miles back to my flat from the centre of town on more than one occasion because I didn't have the bus fare and my card had been declined. Of course I could have picked up the phone and dialled a parent who could have found the equivalent of £130 back then. I definitely had friends who didn't have any such emergency solution like that. I shared a flat with a guy who's parents could have bought the whole bloody hotel but were pricks and if he had come back saying he'd been rescued and was £130 short his dad would have said, "see if they can be bothered to come and find you for it"! Is he automatically a dick because his dad is less scrupulous than you or me?when I was a student we could somehow afford beer but not toilet rolls.
the weird thing is I don't think anyone has said "fair play to them, if you can blag a nights hotel for free" but that's how some people read "maybe there's more to this than meets the eye, because people don't get rescued off the hills to intentionally commit fraud".Absolutely no-one runs out and buys walking poles and a pair of ice axes for a one-off jaunt up a hill, you'd probably borrow a mate's tent even. All of this I can understand. Taking advantage of people helping you in a crisis of your own creation and then going to ground however, that's not poverty, that's a dick move.
and if they were of "student age" (their actual matriculation being largely irrelevant) then part of learning life is ****ing up and doing stupid stuff and discovering how to fix the problems you've brought upon yourself. People talking about payment plans etc - these are the actions of "mature" people with a bit of life experience. The reason I raised the other side of the story is the MRT essentially pick your destination, and perhaps, unwittingly, they manifested this by not asking the right questions to the casualties in a way that invited an open and honest answer. Some conversation seems to have taken place between the hotel and the team when possibly the hotel were concerned these two lads might have no money, and the team felt it necessary underwrite it. If that was in your/my earshot we would clearly know if had to be paid and failure was taking funds from a cash-strapped charity. Would a youngster new to the hills understand that or just hear "if they don't pay the rescue agency will cover it". Had the bill fallen to the police (who called out the MRT) there might still have been scoffs of disgust but there wouldn't be £35K of donations to the cops! There's plenty of fully grown adults who are dicks, but there's plenty too, especially from big cities, who are entirely oblivious to the funding and volunteer efforts of MRTs.An anonymous letter of thanks/apology is the least anyone with any moral fortitude would do.
I made very clear earlier on I don't approve of this, I wouldn't do it and I'd be furious if one of my kids did it rather than ask me for that cash. However, barring the actual fundraising upside - if the alternative was to tie the team up for another hour finding them somewhere else to stay, or tie up a rural cop for the rest of the night by making it "their problem", or dump them in A&E due to "risk of hypothermia"... £130 is actually probably a pretty good investment (if you value those things)!
I like that post, Poly, but being a free loader have to tell you as I don't have a like button.
Of course they'd have to pay for the rescue in France, no?
Mountain rescue is the responibility of and funded by the state, region and commune, it's free. So if you are hauled off some random peak then they'll ask you if you are insured, what you tell them is up to you. No-one I know has ever had to pay a bill themselves for the getting off the hill part with some exceptions:
Ski resorts have their own "service des pistes" for the "zone sécurisée" that they are responsible for, they give you a bill for rescue from that zone. If they call the Gendarmerie helicopter that's back to the state and they'll ask you if you're insured and it's up to you what you tell them. The specific insurance is about 3e on top of your ski pass.
Taking the piss, if the gendarmes (because it's usually them that rescue) decide you didn't need help, it was non urgent.. it was "secours de confort", you pay.
Climbing, via ferrata and canyoning rescues aren't always free because the commune delegates to guides; if the guide who rescues you decides you were taking the piss with poor gear or whatever, you pay his fees.
Mont Blanc.
Once off the hill if you are transported to hospital ambulances and the Pompiers will send you a bill, the Pompiers are cheap and private ambulances a lottery. Produce your health card.
Hospitals will ask you for your health card which will cover a lot or nearly all of the cost. You pay the difference. Whether you tell them you're insured is up to you. Bear in mind that if you say you're insured they will probably treat just enough to get you into an air ambulance and off their hands because... .
I don't think so - I think you may have conflated two stories. There was a separate one about Londoners in Wales.
Ah, fair, it's possible.
I think you might have missed the point! You suggested nobody from London was "on the breadline", which seems unlikely
Not exactly. I suggested that anyone living in London choosing to go on holiday probably wasn't on the breadline.
(Though I grant you, if you live in London then going on holiday is probably cheaper than staying where you are.😁)
if you literally never found yourself in a situation where you couldn't access £130 you managed your finances better than I did (or many of my friends).
Oh, of course. I was as broke as the next student, back in the days where £130 would have been a sizeable chunk of my living budget for the term rather than just more debt. But this is what I was saying, it's totally plausible for a student to think this little jaunt was a great idea and come unstuck.
However,
Is he automatically a dick because his dad is less scrupulous than you or me?
Well, no, he's automatically a dick for not going "look, I really appreciate you helping us, but I have no money so I can't afford to pay you" instead of "cheers, I'll pay you next week honest guv, can I have a free breakfast?"
Even back when I was young and stupid (as opposed to old and stupid today), if I'd got myself into that situation I would have been doing everything within my power to minimise the impact on those kind enough to help me. There is no way I'd have accepted an offer of a free breakfast let alone demanded it, I'd have gone hungry first.
That is one thing which doesn't add up though. They wanted freebies and argued about the room price. Why do that if they didn't intend to pay? Do we suppose that they only realised after they'd left that they could get away without doing so, so didn't bother?
@Edukator - interesting, I'd always been told that it would cost to get rescued - whether a helli was involved or not. And if a heli was involved then you'd be getting a large bill - no ifs or buts. This was for mountaineering / climbing etc, not skiing. Good to know though.
Hospitals will ask you for your health card which will cover a lot or nearly all of the cost. You pay the difference. Whether you tell them you're insured is up to you. Bear in mind that if you say you're insured they will probably treat just enough to get you into an air ambulance and off their hands because... .
@Edukator - would you mind finishing that sentence off please as I am obviously missing something about why you would or would not tell the MRT, Gendarmerie helicopter, hospital you have insurance.
Especially why telling the hospital you had insurance leads to them treating you just enough to get you off their hands and on to an air ambulance (or flight home?).
Cheers
Sorry, Nick, I stopped there for a reason. On previous threads I've simply said "do your own research" when people have posted misleading AI generated stuff on rescue in France. On this thread I was asked politiely a reasonable question by scc999 and I've answered it with information that's in the public domain and most French mountaineers and skiers are familiar with.
I have a very high level of faith in the French rescue services and health care system. I don't have specific mountain insurance.
Ask your insurance company what their policy is, not me. My advice is to make your own decisions, if your insurance company gets involved you are likely to end up being a pawn in the system with decisions being made for you and sometimes that is not good for you, the patient. Health care should always be about decisions made between the patient and the medical team, add an insurance company and that ceases to be the case. I tried to help out when an English friend had an accident in France but realised the insurance company was putting spanners in the works and there was nothing I could do to help, and the French medical team were being "influenced" by the insurance company involvement. I know what would have happened if the patient hadn't been insured and had placed their faith in the French system, they'd have been transfered to a specialist hospital and fully treated. As it was they were made comfortable till flown out.
OK, thanks for that @Edukator. I had just taken out insurance a few days ago for walking on the GR20 as I too was wary of large bills for helicopters. I mean that's the reason you take out insurance, for those just in case scenarios, not that you want to use it.
Your post(s) had me thinking.
Corsica, anything could happen ! 😉 Watch the film Les Randonneurs before you go. 🙂 Our neighbours did it, loved the walking but found the "welcome" lousy. A colleague of Madame had a better experience and loved every aspect of it.
That is one thing which doesn't add up though. They wanted freebies and argued about the room price. Why do that if they didn't intend to pay? Do we suppose that they only realised after they'd left that they could get away without doing so, so didn't bother?
There’s lots of things like that - like why try to negotiate a free breakfast just ask to put it on the bill. Did they manage to get back to their tent and how were they going to pay for bus travel without their cards etc. Quotes from the MRT rather than the hotel about negotiating hard etc. That’s why I said I think “the other side” would be interesting.
personally the bit that makes most sense to me is two young guys just making ends meet going on a weekend to the lakes via public transport. I’m not sure I’d characterise that as a “holiday”.
A few people saying maybe they didn't the cash for the accommodation? OK, so explain that before you leave, give them your details and pay it when you get home. It's not hard is it?
A lot of young people can't remember their own contact details, it's just one of those things. When I was a young climber, back in the day, I often forgot my own name let alone where I lived or my telephone number. People being so negative about these guys, it may well be that they're simply incredibly stupid. I know I was at that age etc, etc...