I'm not getting this preference for active over passive speaker thing at all ok maybe they could be more convenient but essentially both are speakers driven by amps.. How does having the amp in the same box as the speaker make it better? Both components Amp and Speaker are still rated individually.
If anything I'd have thought keeping the transformers and electronics away from the speaker to be preferable.
I started writing this lot out then thought someone else must have already? And they had...
The main difference is that the crossover is at line level rather than speaker level.
The crossover is less compromised and can perform much better.
The crossover can be active rather than passive, and can apply equalisation where necessary.
The amplifier is directly connected to the driver, with no crossover getting in the way and corrupting the control.
The sensitivity and impedance of the drive units can be chosen to meet the speaker's own requirements.
The designer can trade power and efficiency.
The drive units don't need the same efficiency - they can use what works best.
A single drive unit generally presents an easier and less reactive load to the amplifier.
Distortion from one amplifier doesn't impact the other drive unit.
Drive units can be time-aligned by delay-lines.
Interesting stuff. I was thinking of using the 6 channels of my Amp to drive my speaker's drivers separately - sort of convert them to active if you will. Would any inveterate tweakers be happy to help me with this project. Basically I need to build a line-level crossover to match the ones in the speakers, and if possible add level matching.... Any takers? My electronics is OK, but I don't have a degree in audio design!
TIA
I was thinking of using the 6 channels of my Amp to drive my speaker's drivers separately - sort of convert them to active if you will. Would any inveterate tweakers be happy to help me with this project. Basically I need to build a line-level crossover to match the ones in the speakers, and if possible add level matching.
Look at something like Audiolense and Audiolense XO for using a computer and software to do both room correction and crossover generation:
http://www.juicehifi.com/index.html
or acourate:
IMO these near field studio monitors a few are recommending may really not the best choice. They are designed for exactly that. Sitting close by and analysing recordings.
You will notice Adam also do a home range designed for home listening you will also notice that the price is significantly more say £2500 for an active set .there is a reason for this and it's not just marketing...
I've experienced similar actives before in studio installations and in the builds in the workshop in my previous job in the broadcast industry. They generally had a harsh sound and listening out of the sweet spot sounded weird really.
Also depending on your layout cabling could be an issue in the home depending on what sources you want to connect especially if one also needs a screen connected.
Thanks for the help people...I'll be looking into that.
IMO these near field studio monitors a few are recommending may really not the best choice. They are designed for exactly that. Sitting close by and analysing recordings.
You will notice Adam also do a home range designed for home listening you will also notice that the price is significantly more say £2500 for an active set .there is a reason for this and it's not just marketing...I've experienced similar actives before in studio installations and in the builds in the workshop in my previous job in the broadcast industry. They generally had a harsh sound and listening out of the sweet spot sounded weird really.
Also depending on your layout cabling could be an issue in the home depending on what sources you want to connect especially if one also needs a screen connected.
Total garbage.
You know why the Adam home range are more expensive than the pro's? The finish of the speakers and the labour time associated with it. Go to Musikmesse or any ****y hi-fi show and you'll see the same ATC speakers at both and they are amongst the best in the world.
Active pro's almost always have a flatter frequency response than hi-fi guff so you're definitely getting a truer version of the recording and sound that's most likely going to be less fatiguing than hi-fi models that are almost always tweaked to sound exciting. Recording engineers spend countless hours in front of pro monitors, way more than the average hi-fi geek. If any true pro speaker was "harsh" it wouldn't be very well received would it?
Regarding sounding odd off axis, I'd say most pro speakers I've heard do a far better job than thin baffled hi-fi fashion models. The tweeters are normally higher quality (especially at similar prices) and usually have wider dispersion.
It's all a myth, just like cables. The hi-fi industry wants people to believe that exotically veneered boxes with crappy speaker level inputs will sound better than what the guys use who master the music we listen too. it's such a obvious con but it just keeps rolling on....
My streaming solution is:
Macbook Pro, AudioEngine D1 DAC Connected to Apple TV (also connected to 42" TV) and AudioEngine 2 Active Speakers.
I can stream music from itunes to the speakers, stream internet tv through the tv and speakers, it sounds great, i'm very happy with it.
.. Definitely worth checking out AVI's active solutions. Their original ADM 9's were well received by both hifi and pro audio worlds which is quite unusual... The AVI forum has lots of interesting articles on snake oil type guff surrounding "hifi" obsessions with cables and the like too..
.. Oh and the AVI's have cables included, which by the designers own admission are pretty cheap but as good as anything out there 🙂
is a reason for this and it's not just marketing...
No, it's profitering, from gullible middle aged men.
I couldn't agree less with anything you've posted. Decent monitors are not harsh, quite the opposite. I've done the full bullshit hifi thing and heard some Linn/Naim systems which are so bright they are unlistenable.
The worst part of it is that the hifi companies will sell an upgraded CD player / amp / PSU to help cure the harshness, in what basically something designed badly 🙁
I'm lucky to have a friend with a very good PMC active system, when he moved from passive PMC speakers to the same units but active the difference was significant. There is no reason to assume that studio speakers will be bright they are all as different as passives. Technically active is always going to be better and if well implemented should sound better too.
I have passives in the lounge but direct coupled (no bass/mid crossover) and small low cost studio actives elsewhere and I'm amazed at just how well they sound compared to the pretty expensive passives.
lodious - MemberI've done the full bullshit hifi thing and heard some Linn/Naim systems which are so bright they are unlistenable.
😯 😯 😯
Worst system I've heard was a full Linn / Naim setup, Isobariks etc, at a Bolton HiFi show some time ago.
The tech guys apologised and said they had absolutely no idea why it was basically unlistenable.
Conversely, the little Pink Triangle/Creek/Epos system in the same room a day later was wonderful.
Lot's of similarities between hi-fi and religion. With both, you have to make your own mind up before you sign up and hand over the cash.
Tom, thanks for the email, will get back to you later today.
To the OP, I say follow your instincts keep it simple and stick with the Marantz stuff. A CD6004 cd player and a PM6004 amp, with your budget you can add a Project debut turntable and have a look at Q Acoustics floor standers. All quite mainstream stuff and highly regarded in the press(take from that what you will). Because of its relative popularity you should get some good package deals and of course audition the stuff first. I've been using Marantz stuff for years and have always been happy, I also have a project debut and it works really really well.
The [b]tech guys[/b] apologised and said they had [b]absolutely no idea[/b] why it was basically unlistenable
Uh-huh...
Had the system not had at least three day's warm-up before demonstration, perchance?
You can't get much simpler than a pair of AVI ADM9 RSS's - 4 amps and a very high quality DAC inside them! Plug in a digital or analogue source and off you go 🙂
Er, yes Woppit, they did.
Apologise, that is.
No idea how long it had been set up.
I do like Naim stuff, have heard some lovely home setups but this just sounded awful.
The evangelical attitude of some of the dealers and the unquestioning devotion of their accolytes never ceases to amuse.
It was a ticket only demo at the Last Drop in Bolton, btw.
I couldn't agree less with anything you've posted. Decent monitors are not harsh, quite the opposite. I've done the full bullshit hifi thing and heard some Linn/Naim systems which are so bright they are unlistenable.
Conversely, the little Pink Triangle/Creek/Epos system in the same room a day later was wonderful.
Same here, I used to work Saturdays in an independent family hifi business, so I used to go to the big London hifi shows, and the Bristol one as well, and I clearly remember sitting down in front of a really nice set-up, Pink Triangle deck, I think Monitor Audio speakers, can't remember the amp now, and I left after ten minutes, it sounded horrible, really harsh with too much bass, but I could have sat all afternoon in front of a system costing half the price in the next room. Can't remember what it was, it's twenty-odd years ago now. 😀
Total garbage.
indeed, the PMC/ATC ranges are the same speaker, wood veneer= home. black finish=studio
and dont forget the BBC Ls3/5A one of the most famous nearfields that was used by many as a hifi speaker (in various exotic wood veneer finishes)
No idea how long it had been set up
My point.
Having said that, when I wanted to upgrade my speakers after investing in NAIM CD/PREAMP/POWERAMP/PSU's, I auditioned three different makes. Despite the ProAcs sounding far superior in all areas, the salesman insisted on trying to push a pair of NAIM SBL's on me because they were "musical" and he had them at home.
I thought they sounded like dull disco speakers and couldn't understand why he was being so enthusiastic...
I wanted to upgrade my speakers after investing in NAIM CD/PREAMP/POWERAMP/PSU's
Hook, line and sinker 😉
youlot spend far too much money on HiFI - get some Microlab stuff http://www.microlab.cn/main.asp tis brilliantly cheap, but sounds wonderful (to my completely untrained ear) 🙂 I've got me some Solo 6C's which are active and plug straight into my laptop, tablet, phone etc - i was going to plug them into the front room AV unit, but they sit nice an happily in my offce.
Yup, that's what I mean.
Seen all the tricks - salesmen turning the volume up, enthusiastic foot-tapping, anything to try and persuade you that the evidence of your own ears is wrong.
Put me right off.
A flat frequency response is not the be all and end all for a monitor/speaker - the BBC monitors used to have a dip in their response in the midrange and they were pretty famed for their natural sound and accuracy for reproducing voices. Plus stick it in a room and that flat frequency response is out of the window.
Plus some studio monitors are designed to be mounted up high, and so have an emphasis on the bass to compensate. Put them in a home environment and they will need correction in the bass.
It might be important to have the amplifiers that the speaker designer used to 'voice' the speaker - which is an area where actives really score as you are using the same amps.
How about building your own speakers. I built a a set of Transmission line and a sub of here http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/index.htm
They sound very good. Awesome detail. Ivan the owner is passionate about sound quality.
I also may my own cables from crc.
They are being powered with a pair of Rotel mono blocks/pre amp which i won off Ebay.
audio engineers become familiar with not only the charecteristics of individual monitors but also rooms and how the sound they hear will translate to other enviroments/playback equipment and be altered by broadcast processing etc. nothing to do with HiFi
its why they use NS10s, they crap !
spend time and a little thought on room layout to get the most out of your kit
as unless you are "nearfield monitoring" the room is responsible for a very large part of the sound.
Even with nearfield monitoring, the room has a massive impact, and that's another reason for my distain at the UK hifi industry. The dealers have very little (or no) knowledge of acoustic room treatment. They are happy to sell a stand or interconnects for £2k which make next to no difference, but they have no idea how to treat a room.
but they have no idea how to treat a room.
because their is not much point - most people wouldn't buy the stuff anyway as they don't have a dedicated room.
However you can arrange furniture/rugs/curtains sympathetically - maybe the sofa opposite the speakers and then put the armchairs, with substantial cushions, to the outside of the main speakers - soaks up side reflections without looking geeky - and maybe the wife won't notice...
Just make sure your music doesn't sound artificial:
😉 Tome to be flamed.
Due to nagging from her indoors, i had to de-clutter the living room. B&W CDM1se's, Myryad Amp, Atacama speaker stands, Project Debut, QED cable etc all were sent to the gagage or loft.
Bought a Ruark r4i as it was compact with no cables, easy to fit underneath the telly etc. For a small box it is surprisingly capable.
Might be worth going to a local retailer and listening to one. Comes with FM, DAB,DABPlus,CD,USB, I Pod dock and Auxiliary inputs.
I know it is not going to be as good as a seperates set-up, but it now does for me.
lodious - MemberI wanted to upgrade my speakers after investing in NAIM CD/PREAMP/POWERAMP/PSU's
Hook, line and sinker
I'm not sure why you think that's particularly meaningful. I used the same method to decide on the NAIM equipment that I used to pick the non-NAIM speakers.
Your comment is irrelevant.
Woppit - you're going to have to get a sense of humour over this, or you'll end up like all the other [s]sheep[/s] naimees....
Rusty - will look out for it.
FWIW the worst mega system was at a show in Manchester around 10 years ago. Some mahoosive Chord set-up with (I think) enormous Wilson speakers. Never has Rage Against the Machine's Killing in the Name been so soulless. Best system at that show was a Creek one with some standmounts.
Anyone fancy buying my Audiolab 8000 CDM and DAX
Its still sits pride of place on top of my Hi-Fi stand but I unplugged it a couple of years ago when moving stuff and never bothered plugging it back in.
I just use the rest of the hi-fi with streamed music and blu-rays.
If I was buying a new system I would even consider a CD player
ourmaninthenorth - MemberWoppit - you're going to have to get a sense of humour over this, or you'll end up like all the other sheep naimees....
Ha. Ha.
The last phone call I ever made to a hifi dealer (probably the best respected Naim dealer in the East Midlands). I swear on the life of my kids this is how it went....
Me: Do you stock Lavry DAC’s?
Them: No, we used to, but we didn’t make enough margin on them to justify the hassle of importing them
Me: OK, Thanks. Were they any good?
Them: Yes, a couple of they guys who work here replaced their Naim CD5(??) with them. They thought they were great.
Me: Isn’t the Naim CD(???) expensive.
Them: Yes, they are 10 grand.
Me: OK thanks. Goodbye
Why the dealer chose to be so candid, I’ll never know. I’d spent a lot of money there, and he’s admitted that something that costs 10k can be replaced with something sounds better and costs a grand. (Even more, as you don’t need a preamp + PSU + PSU, so that’s more gear that got sold).
I went ahead and bought the DAC, and you know what, it wiped the floor with my high end British CD player. About that time, I bought a pair of decent Active monitors. Job done. Never thought about upgrading since.
I know a lot of people who rate Naim gear, but I don’t know anyone who rates it who has listened with an open mind at the alternatives. The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.
The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.
About what?
As an active member of the Naim community during the Larvy days, no one was replacing a top of the line Naim CD player with a Larvy DAC, lower end models yes CD5's etc.
The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.
And studio equipment is very different to home equipment for many reason, your comment is toss. Its like riding an XC bike on a DH race, both bikes to a non cycling enthusiastic but to us very different tools.
About what?
..the fact that the audio performance is not very good for the money? It's a lifestyle product sold to impressionable men.
There is no difference between studio and home in terms of what is being asked. Quality is quality.
The almost total lack of penetration into studios by hifi manufacturers speaks volumes.
plenty of 'audio' manufacturers have a toe in both camps. PMC, ATC, bryston, Harbeth, Nagra, Benchmark, Dynaudio, focal amongst others
And studio equipment is very different to home equipment for many reason, your comment is toss. Its like riding an XC bike on a DH race, both bikes to a non cycling enthusiastic but to us very different tools.
This.
Thought you meant the excellent Gary Fisher bike of the same name, which is now of course no more, given that Trek have swallowed GF products whole. So if anbody does have an ancient or not so ancient Hi-Fi, don't replace it, ride it. It's a wonderful ride and will soon be a collectors' item!
To be fair, my dad is a huge music fan and has never thought too much about top end hifi. He had lots of Rega kit before. I played him some stuff through my system recently and he realised there is a whole other world of proper hifi that does in fact get you closer to the music, he went out, listened to everything he could find and now has 3 Naim Olive systems because he said they were the best stuff he heard. No buyer preference or brand loyalty, just a good set of ears that knows his music inside out.
Naim is good kit.
I feel duty bound to confess that the treble dial on my 3020i is turned to the left slightly as the wooden floors since moving meant everything sounded a bit bright.
I also have the spikes of my floorstanders sat on 2p pieces so they don't mark the floor. They sound better tails up.
