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fwiw I have no particular horse in this race. No children, nor plans to have any, so, if anything, it suits my narrative better if all/any wfh productivity impairments could be put down to parenting.
Funkmaster & TJ - do you want to be be treated by your employer as automatons or have them understand you as an individual. Have you never had a work related problem (technical or human) that was resolved by sitting down with your boss and discussing it? Have you never gained some insight into other people’s lives from a chat whilst waiting for a meeting to start, the kettle to boil, etc? That small talk can actually be triggers for solving problems, understanding people’s personalities, etc. when I worked in an office I could tell you the names of all my staff’s partners, children, pets. I could tell you roughly where they lived how they commute, what they were doing after work etc, now I can tell you what is on the wall in their home office. I’m not hankering after going back to the office but the grass is not always greener. There have been weeks where I have not left the house at all.
I had good work relationships with folk at work. They were not my friends, I kept my work and home life completely separate. Work is work and home is home and never mix the two. All that info about colleagues. None of mine would know that about me, I knew none of that about them, I find that borderline creepy
Very different working environments tho
There have been weeks where I have not left the house at all..
I genuinely miss lockdown for this reason. Just me, Mrs F, the kids and the dog. Finish work, walk downstairs and get to spend quality time with my family. I'd take that over listening to Geoff from accounts talking about football.
I have great working relationships with the people I work with. They know some stuff about me and vice versa. I'll go out for a drink after work occasionally. I'm doing so tonight actually as some people are leaving.
I'll talk through work related problems with my boss and colleagues because it is part of work. I'd never discuss personal issues in any real detail. I've seen what can happen as a result at several places I've worked at.
So… pretty much as written and interpreted then? No inference (as trail_rat suggested) required.s
He still hasn't said all of his teams productivity dip has been down to that but he has quantified why he knows there was a productivity dip attributed to that single factor.
But as it suits your narrative as you have written. I can see why you are forcing that connection
It’s as if every person is an individual and blanket decrees about working patterns won’t suit everyone….
Bingo!
Not WFH exactly, but three remote sites that used to have monthly in-person meetings, now due to Teams and budget caps for travel, done via Teams. There is a definite silo mentality creeping in, and no longer feels like a team. So in-person has some benefits IMHO.
From my experience the people who campaign for working from home are the lazy work shy ones who will literally try anything to avoid doing any work. Seems there's a lot more of these than I thought.
Its unhealthy in many ways and is another dreadful hangover from over zealous draconian covid "rules" where some people obviously had it way too good and don't want to go back to actually having to do some work.
Not many if any will admit it but this is what wanting to work from home boils down to. No believes you, especially when you say things like "i get more done when I work from home". Big red flag right there.
There's some lazy workshy folk going under the radar in offices as well.
I'm wfh today - waiting for someone on my team to respond to my Teams request on how to resolve a problem, may take a reminder later to get a response.
At least when I was in the office yesterday and needed help the response was immediate. Even if it was still "not got a clue mate"
But as it suits your narrative as you have written. I can see why you are forcing that connection
Um, no? That's the opposite of what I said.
The "we know what's best for your social life and want to control it on your behalf" argument is uncomfortably dystopian for me. What next, are you going to arrange the seating plan on the basis of which friends you think I should make? Am I going to be overlooked for promotion if I don't want to spend six hours every day smiling and nodding as tony from operations drones on about his personal life while distracting everyone from their work?
If people want to chose lines of work and workplaces on the basis of the potential for social interaction then that's obviously fine, but mandating office attendance for that reason feels very weak.
Just wanted to add it has been an interesting thread to read and refreshing that for the most part people are willing to try and understand the pros and cons of both sides of the argument.
From my experience the people who campaign for working from home are the lazy work shy ones who will literally try anything to avoid doing any work. Seems there’s a lot more of these than I thought.
Its unhealthy in many ways and is another dreadful hangover from over zealous draconian covid “rules” where some people obviously had it way too good and don’t want to go back to actually having to do some work.
Not many if any will admit it but this is what wanting to work from home boils down to. No believes you, especially when you say things like “i get more done when I work from home”. Big red flag right there.
That's in the running for biggest load of bollocks I've ever read on here and there is some stiff competition for that honour. Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? What's unhealthy about it exactly? Why do you think it is lazy/workshy people?
I definitely get more done when working from home. Especially when it comes to writing reports or those shitty tasks that you always put off. Music on, head down, no distractions and get shit done. Trying to do that at work (office or warehouse) ain't happening. That's why hybrid works well for me. Add in the fact that I'm not commuting two hours each day and can have an extra hour in bed and I'm more refreshed and relaxed when starting work too.
Um, no? That’s the opposite of what I said.
You do seem quite keen on continuing an argument based on a false premise. I guess you have plenty of time while working from home.
No-one ever went into an office because they wanted a cuddle. Well, almost no-one.
@Cougar2 – I think I would strongly dispute this – both literally and metaphorically.
What I meant was, few people go into an office solely because they want a cuddle. They go in primarily to provide a service in exchange for a salary.
Riddle me this. How many former work colleagues are you still in regular contact with?
I was with the same company for 16 years and was well-liked (I know, I was shocked too), but everyone leaving a company always says the same thing, "keep in touch, here's my personal email address" and are never heard from again. Despite having left several months prior I got invited to the informal Christmas do last year, but beyond that and impersonal 'likes' on Facebook I can probably count former colleagues who are friends without running out of fingers.
There is a definite silo mentality creeping in, and no longer feels like a team.
The problem I hit here was, for a while I was a Northerner in a team of Southerners. It wasn't an issue that I was remote from my team, rather it was an issue because I was the only remote worker. We'd have Teams meetings specifically booked to thrash out jobs for the week / month, but they'd all sorted it out over the brew round ahead of the call so I got left with the scraps no-one else wanted.
From my experience the people who campaign for working from home are the lazy work shy ones who will literally try anything to avoid doing any work. Seems there’s a lot more of these than I thought.
I'm quite bad at keeping track of usernames. But sometimes a post appears which gives me pause to look back at who posted it. When I do I'm rarely shocked.
In the 21st century is it really reasonable to still insist that people endure this?
Really depends on the Job TBH, I can't do my job with less than about 80% presence, my missus can do hers 100% from home but they have started insisting on whole team attendance on Mondays, which she keeps swerving and is increasingly getting bollocked for.
The thing is I don't think I would enjoy 90 - 100% WFH, at the same time presentisim (a very specific form of bullying IMO) can seriously erode morale. People need to want to be in a work place, create the right environment/culture with a lack of judgement around how much time is spent in the office/at home and people will be able to strike the balance and work efficiently (IME/IMO)...
I was with the same company for 16 years and was well-liked (I know, I was shocked too), but everyone leaving a company always says the same thing, “keep in touch, here’s my personal email address” and are never heard from again.
Oh. Maybe it's something you said... or didn't say?
I (and i'm sure many others here) have got lifetime friends that I met at workplaces i've left in previous decades. In one case, one of my best friends now I met on recommendation of a colleague I worked with (remotely - he was in a different office)15 years ago.
This might sound weird, but I work better when I have people around me, even if I’m wearing headphones to block them out. I took a desk in one of those work hub places when I was self-employed because I was so much more productive. There’s something about going to a different place where all I do is work.
My current full-time employer is one of those 100% at the office outliers. The CEO says he wants us talking and collaborating face to face, as in his opinion that’s what makes a company productive and sustainable. In reality we do about 80%, as there’s still flexibility and a lot of people spend a day a week at home. We’re a manufacturing (hardware and software) business.
Obviously experienced staff work well from home, but I can see how the younger, less experienced ones are developing much quicker now than they did during covid times. The ones who started then still talk about how they struggled at home.
But the other thing I think about is that a company that encourages working from home is in a stronger position to hire their workforce wherever it’s cheapest, so I do see greater job security in my company’s approach.
If the work environment is big enough, then i guess by the law of averages its quite normal to find someone you have enough in common with to actually become friends with.
My former work environment was 30:2 in favour of the opposite sex; the majority 25yrs older. The only other male was very neuro-divergent, and probably a nice guy if you could get more than a grunt out of him .. which I failed to do in the 3 years I was there. There were a handful I could have a giggle with but nobody I would want to give up my private time for.
I always find those people in work who try arranging work nights out every month or so a bit sad, you just know they stalking social media every evening to add you to their fake friends list.
I dont think you're in a minority, and what you say seems perfectly reasonable if your wired that way.
But were not all wired that way, and you lot do my head in 😉 Fortunately for me, my employer is good enough to have honest conversations with and flexible enough that accommodations are made if a work pattern/set up isnt going to result in a content and productive employee.
Over the past few years I've worked in a few different offices for extended periods of time and noticed definite geographic differences in the level of social interaction amongst colleagues. This is across teams of 10-20 folk
18 years working in Glasgow - party time. Everyone gets on, constant social stuff outside work
6 months in Farnborough - zero social interaction. Very much turn up, do the job, leave at 5pm. They didn't even have a Xmas lunch or night out. My leaving "celebration" was 3 of us going to Wimpy!
6 months in central London - Massively sociable, almost something going on every night of the week even if it was just a couple of post work drinks
6 months in Brighton - not particularly sociable despite being a much younger team than I had worked with previously. I took them out for a team lunch one day and it was very awkward
Last 3 years in Manchester - when I joined it was very unsociable..everyone was a bit insular. I've introduced a once a month night out after our monthly team meeting. Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere. Attendance isn't mandatory, but it's been hugely beneficial for building team spirit and bonding, which has seen huge benefits in work during particularly busy or successful times
Whilst WFH widens the gap between office and hands on workers, it does also have a lot of benefits for reducing inequality. All the people moving away from e.g. London to WFH are taking London salaries and spreading that wealth to the rest of the country. Of course that leads to house price rises but it also pays a lot of people's wages everywhere they spend their money. Must also be good for fertility rates if people are able to live closer to their parents for childcare help, rather than chasing southwards for jobs.
I would never have been able to take my (not London) money back to Yorkshire if WFH hadn't become a thing
Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere. Attendance isn’t mandatory, but it’s been hugely beneficial for building team spirit and bonding, which has seen huge benefits in work during particularly busy or successful times
would this work to the detriment of folk like me? Or folk who have caring duties outside of work? ie being left out of the team / being an outsider? I would find this both coercive and exclusionary. Want team bonding? do it in work time! IMO you are using peer pressure to make folk work outside their hours - just another take on it.
So you’ve not been accountable for the design of a large complex multidisciplinary system then?
I do a lot of project work, our "clients" are 8 nuclear power stations sites dotted around the UK coast served by two offices at opposite ends of the country. One projects stakeholders included stations themselves, technical directorate, engineering (mechanical components, mechanical systems, structural, chemistry) OEM's, internal regulator and ONR. Is that complex and multi-disciplinary enough for you?
Maybe not accoubtable overall but certainly have had my own area of accountability that was critical path and required a lot of collaboration. Hybrid working hasn't really changed much other than where you sit and take a call, we don't just pop out to stations every time we need to speak to someone or see something.
Or the development and mentoring of multiple early career employees and seen how their behaviours can be shaped by the interactions in the office?
No but I've been on the other end of that as I already said.
Once you have then I’d be keen to here how you found trying to do that with the team rarely, if ever, seeing eachother in person.
Did you read my post at all or just go straight for the froth? I have done it. It had challenges but nothing that wasn't easily overcome. As a team (group head, mentor, mentee and others) everyone knew what was expected and it worked fine. I can count in one hand how many office days I've had with my team.
Maybe you should be asking yourself what you can do better instead of moaning at folk who have done it.
Over the past few years I’ve worked in a few different offices for extended periods of time and noticed definite geographic differences in the level of social interaction amongst colleagues. This is across teams of 10-20 folk
I've noticed these differences working in different teams even within the same company in the same location!
I'm not sure you could put it all down to geographic differences.
would this work to the detriment of folk like me
We definitely don't employ anyone like you TJ
You don't employ introverts? Those who do not drink? What about those with caring responsibilities? Can you not see how this would discriminate against them? being frozen out of the team? This is how the "old boys network" operates to the detriment of diverse and well functioning teams
Look at it from the other side TJ, is nobody allowed to have fun just because you don't want to? Where I work we are 90% WFH but try to have unit meetings in person, and somebody generally organises a social event afterwards. Attendance is entirely voluntary. One of my staff is a bit "I don't come to work to make friends" (yes, I had noticed) but I will put forward that it makes work a more pleasant place if people interact on a human person level.
social activity is fine to an extent - but if it becomes team building and networking its discriminatory against those who do not drink and those who have caring responsibilities - ie mainly women and muslims. It creates an "old boys network"
but I will put forward that it makes work a more pleasant place if people interact on a human person level.
thats bang out of order. You are creating pressure on that person to spend time with colleagues when not being paid. You want them there you pay their time.
I’ve introduced a once a month night out after our monthly team meeting. Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere.
That genuinely sounds awful to me. When work is done I want to be with my family. I have to spend somewhere between 40 and 60 hours with people I work with each week. That's enough for me. I'll go on works do's, attend conferences, leaving drinks etc but that sounds like some Butlins level enforced fun.
Maybe not accoubtable overall
So that'll be a no then. Delivering small parts that are already well defined and highly driven by strict standards like the nuclear industry can be done like that but the concept phase in less rigidly regulated industries is very difficult to do fully remotely.
As you have come in to engineering late as you said was your early career in whatever field it was done in person? Could it be that you already have learned the behaviours that are expected through your earlier experience hence now just doing some cpd which can be done remotely?
We have a lot of grads and the difference in confidence, behaviours, ability to be in front of suppliers and customers is markedly different between those that do come in the office by thier own choice even a few times a month over those who won't and have either never been in or only once or twice over the year.
I work for a very flexible company and we have no obligation to come in at all and I do cater for those who choose not to but I am beginning to escalate the issues this causes and the delays to work when we don't get through the same amount of work in remote sessions that we do in the in person ones. These are quantifiable metrics that can be reported.
Where we will probably get to is come in for specific meetings and session and attendance in person will be non negotiable. That may be 2-3 days a week for 2-3 weeks at critical points of the project and then no requirement for attendance for a few months.
I’ve introduced a once a month night out after our monthly team meeting. Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere.
Haha , get ****ed. I'm an extrovert by nature with 24 years in the Army where team is everything and even we didn't have this sort of bollocks.
I'd rather do Christmas day guard duty than that utter Webster's bollocks.
Oh. Maybe it’s something you said… or didn’t say?
I (and i’m sure many others here) have got lifetime friends that I met at workplaces i’ve left in previous decades.
Well, you could read the other half of that post but OK. So have I. But would you consider it to be a large number?
Each person takes a turn organising an event and a meal somewhere.
Back to mine for take-out from the Indian and then board games followed by a movie?
Read what I said properly TJ, attendance at the in person work meeting is not mandatory can do hybrid, and the staff organise the social stuff themselves. Nobody is making anybody do anything, all I am saying is human interaction can be good, no need to call the unions.
TJ, your point re drinking and exclusion is utter tosh. One of my team is Muslim and is at every social event, doesn’t drink (obviously). Religion has nothing to do with attending social events. If you’re an introvert then the likelihood is you won’t be bothered either way about attending social events anyway.
One of my team is Muslim and is at every social event, doesn’t drink (obviously). Religion has nothing to do with attending social events.
... anecdotally.
I have a friend who is Muslim (well, I have several), he refuses to set foot inside a pub because within whatever strain of Islam he prescribes to the default assumption is that if he does then he will be drinking (or I suppose, exposed to or tacitly condoning alcohol). It's caused... not a problem exactly, but it's a consideration we have to accommodate when organising get-togethers involving Saj. We'd just go to Pizza Hut rather than the Cockwell Inn.
Also, other religions are available.
spooky - there have been tribunals and court cases over this. Its discriminatory IF attending these events gets you in a better place at work. What about those with childcare commitments? I have worked with muslims who would never go to a place serving alcohol
hels - I read this as you were suggesting that person should go on the events
but I will put forward that it makes work a more pleasant place if people interact on a human person level.
I can see thats got an alternative reading perhaps as you meant ie a general point to us 🙂
Haha, fair point. Does Pizzahut not sell alcohol though?
TJ, I’m sure there has been. I think for the most part though the days of the ‘old boys club’ are pretty much over. Not saying certain people don’t get preferential treatment when it comes to promotions etc but it’s not because you happened to attend a social event or 2. I attend all of them and haven’t got anywhere!
You get the promotions because you are "one of the lads, a good one at that - you know the type you can have a beer with at the end of the week"
Its just an insidious side effect. As I say if its just socialising then not too bad but if its about team bonding / building / networking then its discriminatory. You will be seen as not a team player
Yeah it's not like the good olde days when you had to be a paid up member of the union to get the promotion.