Did the authors of the Bible?
They claimed that God was telling them things, and God is claimed to be infallible.
Really? Sure about that?
Hang on a minute, this is where these sort of religious arguments become impossible.
Exactly. You can't argue that it has no value because it can't have been written by God, when not everyone's claiming that it was. It can still have value even if it was written by some humans who knew God, and some who didn't. The editors could easily have left the latter writings in becuase they thought they had value - and you (or a later church) can deicde they don't.
I'm mostly with you molgrips, it makes total sense to me to think of the bible as a sort of manual of useful things to think about, some of which might make less sense today in their literal reading than they did 2000 years ago.
I realise I'm making some assumptions here, but I assume that people that believe hard in God have in mind some sort of constant agent, a universal ultimate power who made everything and has things he likes to happen and things he doesn't like to happen, and those things aren't for us to question. I'd have thought that to believe something like that exists you'd have to believe that it exists entirely independent of what people do or don't think about the bible, and that it was the same 2000 years ago as it was today, and it will still be the same in another 2000 years. It wouldn't be much of an ultimate power or authority otherwise.
At the same time, the foundation for that belief is the bible, or at least the current politically correct interpretation of the bible, which everybody knows is subject to change. If there is a constant God it doesn't seem likely that any arbitrary interpretation of the bible is likely to be very accurate on the subject.
It's the contradiction between those two roles for the bible that I can't square, and what I don't get is how other people do.
Like I said though I'm looking in from the outside in probably quite a naive way. Maybe people think about it in a different way so the contradiction doesn't exist.
At the same time, the foundation for that belief is the bible
Is it? I honestly don't know, not being Christian myself - perhaps if any are brave or foolish enough to be on the thread they could chip in?
If there is a constant God it doesn't seem likely that any arbitrary interpretation of the bible is likely to be very accurate on the subject.
I would hazard a guess that God would guide your interpretation of it. So your dialogue with God is the Cliff Notes, and possibly even your conscience.
Like I said though I'm looking in from the outside in probably quite a naive way.
And that's really my point. Most of the religion bashers (not saying you) are doing just that.
At the same time, the foundation for that belief is the bible
Is it? I honestly don't know, not being Christian myself
Well I think it's fair to say they go hand in hand, in church anyway, which amounts to the same thing in my (good) book.
...Was it one infallible omnipotent god, or was it a collection of authors, each interpreting the voices in their head a different way?
The infallible voice of God speaking through the fallible lips of man.
Any [b]Truth[/b] comes from careful and considered reflection upon the words and their meaning to you, as one of God's children, not from chucking soundbites around the web - but then there's no hero points in that is there 😕
Any Truth comes from careful and considered reflection upon the words and their meaning to you, as one of God's children
But then it's [i]your[/i] truth, not [i]the[/i] truth. And if it's [i]your[/i] truth it's just [i]a[/i] truth. I thought the thing with God is that he's [i]the[/i] truth, the only one there has ever been or ever will be.
EDIT I'm talking myself in circles now so I'm bowing out of this one 🙂
So after all these years I find I'm a bad man for wearing cotton jeans with a little bit of lycra in them.
Ah well, to Quote the Bonzo Dog Band - "A lot of it's rubbish you know".
Students of literature don't all agree on Shakespeare or Proust do they? Just because not everyone agrees, doesn't make it worthless.
I think they're pretty much in agreement over which bits are supposed to be fictional.
All our buses have wheelchair ramps to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act.
They do, but then being disabled isn't a lifestyle choice. There are no downsides to anyone, disabled or otherwise, in providing accessibility (other than a bit of extra work in building it I suppose).
I guess if vegan safety boots didn't exist, then I suppose that similarly, I'd have to be exempted from wearing safety boots.
How is that similar? Either safety equipment is necessary or it isn't. If it's necessary and you're refusing to use it, they you're a menace to yourself and others. (Speaking as a vegetarian,) given the choice between having an extra cow in the world and having feet that work, I think on balance I'd go for the latter.
Really? Sure about that?
I found this the other day. Bear in mind, this is a pro-Christianity website.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/iyf/hottopics/defendingyourfaith/why-believe-bible-true.html
The Bible is the collected writings of people who knew God over many centuries. But more than that, as Christians we understand that God has spoken through these people.Some Bible books recite what God has done in people's lives—like 1 and 2 Kings. Other books, like Isaiah, show God speaking directly to us through the voice of a prophet. Isaiah doesn't just reflect on his personal experiences with God. He speaks [b]for [/b]God, and God actually speaks [b]through [/b]him. And the New Testament Gospel writers have Jesus speaking directly to us.
Straight from the horse's mouth; they claimed god was telling them things.
Really? Sure about that?
Christians believe that Jesus [i]is[/i] God so any parts of the Bible which say "Jesus said" are reporting upon what God said. Even on those parts, there's rather a lot of disagreement withing individual denominations, let along among Christians. Far clearer than almost anything in the Bible is what Jesus thought about divorce, for example, but we see rather different views on that.
Given how widely interpreted the Bible can be, it seems rather silly to base modern laws on it. So, for example, exempting doctors from treating homosexual patients, preventing women accessing reproductive health services, or using it to define marriage, would all be a bit silly.
How is that similar?
I was thinking of police helmets as safety equipment. Perhaps motorcycle helmets or builder's hard hats would have been a better example.
In which case, the biggest difference is not the risk of injury, but the fact that no one can deny a cow needs to die to make a pair of boots, but the not cutting your hair and wearing a turban thing is all based on another made up story.
Some new theology being unloaded, earlier:
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I was thinking of police helmets as safety equipment. Perhaps motorcycle helmets or builder's hard hats would have been a better example.
I did wonder. Motorcycle helmets are a better example yes, and carry the same exemption. It seems somewhat irresponsible to me, but then I suppose you don't see many turban-wearing Hell's Angels knocking about (with "Sikh and Destroy" written on the back of their leathers).
with "Sikh and Destroy" written on the back of their leathers
Bravo!
Straight from the horse's mouth; they claimed god was telling them things.
for which you might get locked up if you claimed this nowadays.
An illustration of relative importance. Readings from Leviticus, which I know STW loves quoting, can be used at CofE services on three occasions during the year. To put that in perspective there are six different readings from Isaiah that can be used on the first Sunday of Advent alone.
Who made that rule up?
Acceptable forms of worship are laid out by the General Synod of the CofE, there are an quite a lot of them.
I thought the thing with God is that he's the truth, the only one there has ever been or ever will be.
Yes - to a Christian this is not in doubt, I suppose. But the question is one of communication. Was His word accurately recorded, and if so would it apply to us nowadays? If he were talking to us directly now, would he say the same things? A lot of people would say no.
Other books, like Isaiah, show God speaking directly to us through the voice of a prophet.
Was the author of Leviticus a prophet? I mean the actual man who put pen to paper, not necessarily the originator of the rules.
for which you might get locked up if you claimed this nowadays.
Quite. Any god who can be made to shut up with some anti-psychosis drug ain't much of a god.
But then it's your truth, not the truth. And if it's your truth it's just a truth. I thought the thing with God is that he's the truth, the only one there has ever been or ever will be.
Yes, but as children of God, the [b]one truth[/b] is inherent in us and would be revealed by such contemplations 😀
O.K. go on. What is it then.
How long do I need to spend in contemplation in order for the one truth to be revealed? I mean time is a bit tight right now.
SHOULD be no time at all. hilldodger is going to tell us what it is.
Aren't you, hilly...
slowoldman - Member
Ah well, to Quote the Bonzo Dog Band - "A lot of it's rubbish you know".
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I'd worship them, wouldn't you?
What is it then.
The truth is God, and his love for everyone 🙂
Even gay people who need an ambulance ?
Thing is hospitals have many care providors and not all of them may refuse through religous grounds to treat gay people.
SHOULD be no time at all. hilldodger is going to tell us what it is.Aren't you, hilly...
Not really a matter of me telling anyone [b] The Truth[/b] just expressing the thought that contemplation of any work of spiritual teachings by someone with belief in their foundation can lead to a deep personal understanding of their place in the Universe and perhaps even enlightenment.
Even gay people who need an ambulance ?
There's a gay couple up the road who own a retired ambulance. It's got rainbow flowers painted on it and the signage has been altered to read "AMBIANCE" \o/
There's a gay couple up the road who own a retired ambulance. It's got rainbow flowers painted on it and the signage has been altered to read "AMBIANCE" \o/
That sounds lovely, apart from the picture of the business end of a birth.
If he were talking to us directly now, would he say the same things? A lot of people would say no.
These people need to look up the meaning of the word infallible.
Its just more fudging that they do because the believers dont even agree with the book.
Isaiah is a prophet. I think there sentence says this anyway so I am not sure why you asked.
The Truth just expressing the thought that contemplation of any work of spiritual teachings by someone with belief in their foundation can lead to a deep personal understanding of their place in the Universe and perhaps even enlightenment.
Wibble blah blah.
So, still nothing actually meaningful, then. What a surprise.
In Biblical times God had no trouble communicating with His creation. He even managed to issue Noah with a complete design spec for an ark. Now he can't even give us a straight yes or no answer on whether it's ok to take it up the wrong 'un.
Thing is hospitals have many care providors and not all of them may refuse through religous grounds to treat gay people.
There are many hospitals in Ireland, all of which refuse abortions on religious grounds.
Wibble blah blah.So, still nothing actually meaningful, then. What a surprise
Nothing meaningful [b]to you[/b], that's where there's no surprise
what is known as, PARKLIFEhilldodger - Membercontemplation of any work of spiritual teachings by someone with belief in their foundation can lead to a deep personal understanding of their place in
😆
As a Christian I have many of the questions that have been chucked about above and others, some of which I have an answer I can live with some of which I wish I had an answer for and some I don't think matter that much (except in a theological debate).
In answer to the OP I can't think why a doctor wouldn't want to treat a gay patient. Doesn't make any sense to me. I do, however think that's quite different to performing abortions.
In (somewhat) agreement to one of the posts above, I do think that the most important message from the Bible is that of loving God and loving your neighbour. Sometimes I think we need a factory reset; start from that point and work the rest out from there.
I do think that the most important message from the Bible is that of loving God and loving your neighbour.
I think Jesus thought the same 🙂
I do think that the most important message from the Bible is that of loving God and loving your neighbour.I think Jesus thought the same
Phew!
He was better at quoting than me though! 😀
Northwind - Memberwhat is known as, PARKLIFE
or you could try formulating your own thoughts instead of vox-popping 😉
but then this is the court of the cut'n'paste king
These people need to look up the meaning of the word infallible.
Not at all. Even if you are infallible it certainly makes sense to give different instructions to different groups of people who live in different societies and times. And as said, even if you give infallible instructions to someone doesn't mean they are going to record it properly.
Even if there is a God, why is he deserving of worship? Seems an utter **** to me.
