Forum menu
Can anybody help...? I'm trying to understand the origins of regional bastardisation of the English language, in this instance quite specifically why people born and raised north of Birmingham often mix up "were" and "was", making it sound as if they're speaking in the subjunctive mood rather than the past tense.
OK, I'll admit, I'm a Grammar Nazi and it really irks me when she frequently says "I were" or "you was" when she's speaking in the past tense, but she can kind've get away with it on a technicality by claiming she's speaking hypothetically (I know she isn't), which irks me even more! 😂
For the record... I grew up just south of Birmingham near Worcester with both parents speaking the Queens English pretty much (Mum was an English Teacher before I was born which helped I guess). My Mum's family tree can be drawn back to pre Henry VIII within 15 miles of where I grew up, so the family line is strong that side. Dad grew up where I grew up, but his parents both grew up North of Birmingham centre (West Brom and Minworth FWIW), but re-settled south of Birmingham post WW2. My Grandad was well spoken, apparently having actively worked on his spoken language throughout his adulthood especially after relocating. My Grandmother was the polar opposite, her regional dialect remained for the entirety of her life (but didn't rub off on my Dad).
My GF grew up near Mansfield, her parents both grew up there too. My GF's regional dialect isn't too strong for the mostpart (her parents still are!), but she just cannot work out when to use "were" and "was" correctly, and I'm trying to understand why...
Any expert views on the topic of regional dialect would be gratefully received. The English language still fascinates me as much as it frustrates me, as I know that 25 miles either north or south of where I live, accents and dialect have changed so much as to be almost unrecognisable as the same language, and can be difficult to understand even for someone with a sharp ear if spoken with a heavy local bias!
Often due to the influence of invading/raiding scandiwegians
The closer you get to the North Sea coast, the more Viking/Dane/Angle influences
I love the way my m-I-l says “I would have went...” instead of “I would have gone...” (Whitley Bay)
I recommend being cool with it. Accents and dialects have been about for a long time, I only hope we can preserve them in the face of mass spoken media consumption.
A quick Google will get you started.
However, from your starting post, I infer you don't like dialects and accents and prefer some artificial, homogenised English for all. Eek.
Often due to the influence of invading/raiding scandiwegians
That far back...? Crikey!
There's no hope of the GF picking up the correct use of these verbs if it's been ingrained in her family for 1000+ years already! 🤨
Good job you don’t live in Barnsley 😉
kind’ve
🙄
However, from your starting post, I infer you don’t like dialects and accents and prefer some artificial, homogenised English for all. Eek.
Far from it actually! Another example of how the English language can be twisted if that's what you inferred... 😉
I think one of the big strengths of the English language is just how diverse it is. But the incorrect use of the was/were verbs really does irk me, as I know that they can be swapped readily if being used hypothetically rather than in the past tense, but I know my GF isn't doing that which is probably why it gets me.
I know one day she's going to ask me something, and I'm going to respond (correctly) with "If I were you" and she's going to go ballistic at me, again not fully understanding how and when they should be interchanged! 😂
We don’t live in the 1950’s with everyone expected to speak like BBC announcers. Get over it. If you’re not careful you’ll swallow the stone from the plum in your mouth and choke on it.
If you haven’t realised by now, the British Isles has a whole range of regional accents and dialects, some are derived from different languages, and their loss makes us all the poorer as a nation.
You're championing a particular way of speaking that is specific to a particular time and culture in the belief that it is correct and being subject to 'bastardisation' by others. In reality, it's fleeting and transient. Language has always been subject to change and modification, and will continue to develop in the future. A TV series about the English language, presented by Melvyn Bragg, concluded that the original English was most likely close to that spoken in the North East. If that's true, it's your attempt to promote RP that is bastardising our shared language.
🙄
I nearly wrote "kinda" on purpose... I didn't say I was perfect! 😉
Good job you don’t live in Barnsley
Know a few people from that neck of the woods, and have spent a bit of time round there. I know what you mean, but funnily enough I think when a regional dialect is so strong that more rules are broken than adhered to, it doesn't bother me strangely. It's when someone like my GF who uses the language pretty correctly the rest of the time, breaks one rule so consistently and doesn't understand how or why, that it frustrates me.
We don’t live in the 1950’s with everyone expected to speak like BBC announcers. Get over it.
Stick, wrong end of, totally!
Any expert views on the topic of regional dialect would be gratefully received. The English language still fascinates me as much as it frustrates me, as I know that 25 miles either north or south of where I live, accents and dialect have changed so much as to be almost unrecognisable as the same language, and can be difficult to understand even for someone with a sharp ear if spoken with a heavy local bias!
Many influences to the individual regional variations. However regional dialects are dying out rather than increasing in their differences. Travel, TV, radio and YouTube all lead to an increasing homogeneity
OK, I’ll admit, I’m a Grammar Nazi
Probably more appropriate to refer to yourself as a grammar pedant instead of going straight for Godwin's Law
Don’t think Shakespeare spoke RP. Imagine “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day” or “Alas poor Yoric” spoken like Barry from Auf Wiedersehen, Pet.
There aren’t many colloquialisms that grate, but the use of went instead of gone, of instead of have and wains instead of children really do.
Just makes folk sound fick innit!
I recommend being cool with it. Accents and dialects have been about for a long time, I only hope we can preserve them in the face of mass spoken media consumption.
Aye,haud yir weesht ya fud 😉
Wains/Bairns are regional dialect, not the user being ‘thick’
‘Would of’ instead of ‘would have’ on the other hand...
I said makes them sound thick - not that they are. My issue entirely.
I think the jury is still out on went vs gone though 🤔
It’s the opposite… the English language has fewer regional variations in England than it used to have… there is increasingly convergence rather than ‘bastardisation’… now what’s happening with the language in other countries is more interesting… English is no longer owned by the English.
English is no longer owned by the English.
For sure!
I’ve heard several sound bites over the years which I found helps explain why the English language is so diverse.
Horses. Prior to us domesticating horses people could only travel as far as our legs could take us, hence (extreme) local dialects were the norm. Once we had horses at our disposal we could travel and spread our wings / dialect.
Invasion. As mentioned previously, we’ve been invaded from pretty much every side. Our invaders brought with them their own language which was adopted locally.
Industrial revolution. With the advent of large factories, communities surrounding the factories grew, with each community developing it’s own unique dialect. Given this took place a only a couple hundred years ago it’s still very much evident to this day. Consider Birmingham and Manchester, today they’re significant cities but both have dialects (and accents) which only locals can recognise (and sometimes fathom).
One final point and one I only recently learned to accept; languages constantly evolve, Queens English will soon be replaced by an increased use of spoken acronyms (lol, roflmao, etc). English in 500 years will be as far removed from our language today as it was 500 years ago.
I think I share your concern. There is a difference between dialect and poor use of language isn't there?
I've got a friend who I guess you'd say spoke estuary english. She's as bright as anyone I know; really successful professionally and regularly wows boardrooms with presentations but speaks with a 'H-aich' not an 'Aich' and says 'I done xxx'. Surely that's just crap use of language rather than an accent or dialect? it's like fingers down a chalkboard every time I hear it.
And if dialect is ok in spoken English, why do we standardise spelling so rigidly?
If we’re talking language bugbears...
“I felt asleep”
No! You either did or did not. You did not ‘feel’ asleep!! Gets my goat every time.
Probably more appropriate to refer to yourself as a grammar pedant instead of going straight for Godwin’s Law
Meh! It's inevitable, why fight it? 🤷🏻♂️
I said makes them sound thick – not that they are. My issue entirely.
I don't think that accent or dialect has so much to do with how thick or intelligent someone sounds (my first serious GF had an English Degree from Oxford University, spoke perfect Queens English yet with a broad Stoke-on-Trent accent!), more the individual themselves... For instance, to me Angela Rayner sounds switched on and intelligent, yet her equally northern friend and colleague Rebecca Long Bailey comes across as thick as pigshit to me! 🤷🏻♂️ But then Matt Hancock speaks without any regional dialect whatsoever, and also comes across as thick as pigshit too! 🤔
There aren’t many colloquialisms that grate, but the use of went instead of gone
That's a strange one that one. I know it exists, but I don't ever come into contact with people that do it, it must be quite specific as to where it occurs.
I think my issue with my GF not understanding were/was is more to do with the fact that she is an educator herself (though IT, not English). I hear her speaking to her students and confusing the use of were and was and it bugs me. But then I know high school teachers that are so dyslexic/dyspraxic/dyscalculic that it staggers me they managed to get a job in higher education! 🤷🏻♂️
But then I know high school teachers that are so dyslexic/dyspraxic/dyscalculic that it staggers me they managed to get a job in higher education!
They didn't, they got a job in secondary education. You have to be dysfunctional as well to get a job in higher education.
I've realized recently I prounce dr as jr and tr as chr. For instance, "Do you jream of chrees?"
As I understand it elements of the Midlands accent specifically in the North West parts have some of the last remnants of 15th century diction.
I growed up probly an ondfull of moiles frum yow, but South West of Brum, so I asked me ant un uncle abaht them nearer Wuster (theym frum Wollescot, just off the Wuster Rowud ayet? Anyrwod up, I adsked em abaht the way prapper folk spaeke, yannow, like yow lot does down south unthet? An they sed yum maybe troyin to be pash? They ay bothered abaht it like yow lot am. Orses fer courses ayet? Worry yersen saft yerull.
Me grandad comes from deep Wustershire an he day spake like uz. He sounded like Benny Hill a bit. Man of few werdz but them worree yowsed sounded loike countrified. Norra massive bumpkin burra birrovabumpkin. Wuster folk. Not the pash uns.
I can converse with correct grammar, however I often feel more comfortable using colloquial grammar from calderdale and Huddersfield where I've lived most of my life.
I find dialects really interesting and used to have a better ear for it; being able to pick out the town/village someone was from within a 20 mile radius of where I grew up. I've lost that 'skill' now unfortunately, either that or the accents are merging/being diluted.
I do find it annoying when people correct or get sniffy with the way people speak, especially if it's the sentence structure or cadence that's normal to their geography
personally, I find grammatically correct homogenity boring.
OK, I’ll admit, I’m a Grammar Nazi
1. What you mean by "grammar" is mostly stylistic conventions, not underlying grammar in a technical sense. Stylistic conventions vary according to situation, so the way you speak in a job interview will be different than if you're down the pub talking with your mates.
2. Languages evolve generation by generation. Young people experiment and the variations they develop then become accepted as standard as they grow older. Their elders think they are being "ungrammatical", but they're not really, they're just pushing stylistic conventions, often in a deliberate attempt to distance themselves from old people. Then, when they're old, they start complaining about the youth not speaking "correct" English. On top of that, the world has changed massively in the last century. For example, "computer" used to mean a person (usually a woman) employed to do the mechanical work of calculating mathematical equations, probably using a slide rule. Now we seem to have endless business consultant jargon bleeding into everyday language (a pro-active win-win scenario going forward, etc.).
Regional varieties arise when you have linguistically isolated communities, so the range of British dialects and the class-based differences is evidence of low regional and social mobility. The same for the United States, where southern regional dialects still reflect a lot of archaic British English patterns, but those were abandoned by British speakers who believe that Americans have bastardized the language. Now that everyone is watching the same TV shows and movies, the regional differences will probably be diminishing. The central role of social class has also been massively diminished too, so that should result in homogenization of language over the longer term.
This thread says a lot about a good few posters
Didn't, isn't, can't, kind've, I'm, I'll, OK, Grandad.
Hardly the Queens English there sir!
Is "Queens English" not generally wrong anyway? Just a arbritary set of rules set upon an already rich a varied language.
Ie are you SURE its not the otherway round and were has got a much stricter usage where once it were more fluid in meaning.
I bet you are the kind of person to use paraphernalia incorrectly every time you use it.
I associate what you're talking about with Essex, and no one here (s Cumbria) really talks like that, even the people with strong regional accents.
Good job you don’t live in Barnsley 😉
Oi - less of that! 🙂
The viking references are valid though - Look up histories of places on the East coast like Hornsea and Skipsea and the sea in the name is reference to inland lake not the sea, which is I believe Norse. Also lots of words a supposed to have originated from Scandi languages.
As a kid, if were going out playing we would say "are you laiking out" which is possibly from old Norse origins.
I'm trying to figure out if my manager is of viking stock.
In reference to a time period he'll say "10 while 12."
It's a fascinating study.
Queen’s English was adapted for radio broadcasting so everyone could understand the broadcaster, as mentioned the dialect closest to ‘true’ English is apparently the NE. Use of different words in context is probably due to similar reasons. My MIL uses ‘Why’ often instead of ‘what’ it’s not uncommon where I live now to hear it, yet unheard of from where I grew up only 18 miles away.
The whole language is full of our history. Britonic, Welsh, Latin, Middle English, German, Norman French, and regional, they've all left their marks. We've adapted the Northern dialect of "loves" (rather than lovern) , but the Southern dialect "children" (rather than childers) for example. Then there's Anglo Saxon; "ask" the French; "question" and the Latin "interrogate" Our language tends to hoover them up, the well known ones that indicate your status, the Saxon tended to pigs, cows, and sheep, but the French ate pork, beef, and mutton...
Then there was a vowel shift that started in Italy and headed north in the 15thC, we all mostly lived in hooses, now we live in houses, stood on our foots rather than our feet, but that didn't really get all the way North, hence the Scots dialect is still very much flat vowels (same in Norway)
Throw in some jobbing actors in the 18th C trying to teach the newly minted gentry about the right way tho say things; Pronouncing the "g" at the end of huntin' shootin' and fishin' for example, which up until then wasn't a thing...
No doubt there'll be stylistic queues left by us.
For the record… I grew up just south of Birmingham near Worcester with both parents speaking the Queens English
As examples of mangling English go, Queen's English couldn't be better.
For the record… I grew up just south of Birmingham near Worcester with both parents speaking the Queens English pretty much
Well the fact that version of English has a name suggests theres more than one version of English. Some people would like to claim its the best or only correct English but they would say that because its the English of people who put themselves in charge. Like many kinds of etiquette and 'correct' ways of doing or saying anything is just about creating an incrowd and an outcrowd and setting traps to reveal that someone's not part of your gang / class. See also.... discussions about whether or not the milk goes in first when pouring tea. It makes absolutely no difference to the tea but there was a time when pouring the tea first displayed you were rich enough to afford crockery that could withstand thermal shock. You did it, and claimed it was the correct way to do it, because you could and others couldn't.
she frequently says “I were” or “you was”
Well, at least she's not a pirate, so thats a relief. They's be speaking in the present tense ever since Pirate... errr.... are.
You also need to remember that language was spoken before it was written down and the people doing the writing often spoke / wrote latin so tried to make English fit Latin grammar rules or imposed Latin grammar rules into written English. So some of the grammar rules that grammar pendants love actually have nothing to do with English.
uses the language pretty correctly
You have a problem.
Go back to 1955 Mr Chumley Warner.
The myth of the superiority of Received Pronunciation is still going strong.
There are a multitude of reasons for the mix of dialects and speech accents across the country. We should celebrate it. Except for the Essex twang (I grew up there) - that should be beaten out of them. 🙂
As someone who has a fairly neutral accent, with what I feel is the slightest hint of Brummie(!), I understand Received Pronunciation was a 'manufactured' accent, so that is the Bastardised version, if any.
People spoke RP to elevate their status. You can argue they still do.
Recent language studies suggest American is more like older (not Old) spoken English, and regional accents were the norm.
For such a small country, the range of accents is impressive!
The genetic variant of lactose tolerance allowed people to migrate further and into more inhospitable environments with domesticated cows, goats and sheep. Chaucer was the first to write in English vernacular and his combination of high-brow language and low-brow humour he shares with Boccaccio and that approach was adopted by Rabelais and Joyce. Regional differences are brilliantly accounted for in Moffatt's book on genetics. Private education seeks to standardise the language for the future rulers making regional accents a marker for the nasty, common and vulgar. This, backed up with light entertainment is how we stereotype regional accents with peculiarities, humour and unintelligence whereas they are fascinating evidence of human migration, settlement, technological and cultural change.