[Closed] Reducing Teenage pregnancies...

my son and his girlfriend were both 17 when their daughter was born.
he works fulltime with me, and all his wage goes on looking after his daughter.
his girlfriends mother had her 1st daughter at 17,his girlfriends older sister had her 1st child at 18........neither of them has ever worked.
do you think my sons girlfriend will ever try to get a job, she is currently waiting for a council house, and my son will keep on paying for his mistake.
life eh.

and they are both 18, just.

Teenage pregnancy is higher in countries with the greatest income inequality. High in UK and US, low in Japan, Scandinavia. Check the data ppt from Richard Wilkinson's book 'The Spirit Level' on 'TheEqualityTrust.org'....interesting stuff.

Lets cut through all the bullshit and have a think about this shall we?

Teen pregnancy is symptomatic of poverty, not wholly, you don't need to be a poor teen to get pregnant, but within a population you'll see teen pregnancy within the poorer sectors of (our) society.

You'll also see child mortality high amongst the poor as was some hideous goons were giggling about here on a thread about road deaths a few days ago.

If you take all the social problems related to poverty and group them together (say child mortality and pregnancy, family breakdown, prison, murder, alcoholism and addiction, poor diet, poor health..... theres more) and give a comparative score between societies you will see countries with a big gap between the rich and poor have a corresponding high level of social problem -

like this
[img] [/img]

So rich countries like the Japan or the nordic countries can have comparatively low levels or social problems because the gap between rich and poor is quite low - their typical rich earn about 4 times what the typical poor earn. In countries like the UK and the US the typical rich might earn 9 times what the typical poor earn.

Now our poor in the UK are quite well off in absolute terms, they are poor within our society, but still amongst the richest people on the planet. And better off than the were at the end of the last tory government thats for certain. And although you'd never believe it in our doomlaiden papers many of our social ills are in decline. Not all, but many.

Now the interesting thing about all this though is that it suggests that a nations social ills, even if they mainly occur within the poorer elements of society, seem to be caused by the richer elements of society.

So back to the original topic - teen pregnancy. A synonym for 'contraception' is 'protection'. I think a typical middle class teenager - your daughter will be ****ing terrified of getting pregnant, all their plans all their ambitions, all those things they want to do before they have children are at stake, on top of their family relationships and any social implication. They bloody want protection.

A pregnant teenager is someone who didn't feel they need to protect themselves, they'll be well aware of contraception and they'll probably use it, but not with anything like the anxious zeal that your kids will. Protect yourself from what? Whats the worst that can happen when the worst is already happening? Has always been happening.

Apply those concerns to anything else, how is jail a deterrent when you've nothing to loose, why would you make choices about your food, drink, drugs on the basis of safeguarding your future if its a future full of the same shit that you live with day to day.

Now the thing is when the poor of our society are making these decisions they don't have a calculator in their hand working out that the richest 20% are earning 9 times more than me, so pass me the scagg. So why is it happening? What are the rich doing to make the poor hopeless?

Poisonous comments from braying leisure cyclists about child road accident victims being a fortunate mechanism of natural selection perhaps?

There are changes that can be made and they are much simpler than taxation or education because they've got nothing to do with government and everything to do with us.

You combat the ill effects of poverty by liking people

[b]You combat the ill effects of poverty by liking people[/b]

..and by trying to treat them as you would like to be treated yourself, not demonising them, not insulting them, and not by depriving them of decent housing, decent education and proper support.

Teenage pregnancy leads to kids. Help those kids at the right time, in the right way, with the right amount of support and you save yourself and your society the cost of their crimes, their prison sentences, their dependence on healthcare...

A stitch in time saves nine.

Are you sure that isn't a silly urban myth spread by people pushing a particular right wing agenda? Studies elsewhere have found no evidence of teenage girls getting pregnant deliberately to get council housing, and you'd think if there was such a striking correlation out there in real life, it would be pretty well publicised, as it'd show all these loony left wingers the error of their ways?

There is a particular right wing agenda when it comes to this, because its all about attacking anything public service in the view that if money wasn't "wasted" on it, it would mean less tax burden on them. Teenage mothers are only in the firing line as a means to attack the system, after them, they will attack something else.

Now the interesting thing about all this though is that it suggests that a nations social ills, even if they mainly occur within the poorer elements of society, seem to be caused by the richer elements of society.

Top notch posting Skidartist. We have a sickening class system in this country, where we are all too ready to attack thy neighbour for being different, whether richer, poorer etc. But if we are all at each others throats...

[applauds skidartist]

Teenage mothers are only in the firing line as a means to attack the system, after them, they will attack something else.

There are not, and never have been, a lot of teenage mothers, the figure that sticks in my mind is something like 6000 across the UK at any given time. You could double or halve that number and the effect on the tax payer would be what exactly? But whatever their background, choices, motives or actions I can hardly think of anyone more wanting or deserving of utmost care, protection and encouragement. Being and child and a parent. Thats enormous, thats a massive live-shaking event. Every effort and every expense I reckon.

The poor have no voice. Poverty isn't just skint, its poverty of everything, poverty of influence, poverty of voice, poverty or representation. The rich and right attack the poor because they don't want their money and the don't want their vote, and because is gratifying to pick a fight with someone who can't fight back

If you really want to stop unwanted teenage pregnancies, then educate the young guys that they have an absolute responsibility to pay for the support of their children.

Keep bashing it into their heads all the things they won't be able to do, like affording a nice car, holidays, new mtbs etc.

Also if they are doing their fair share of care for their sons and daughters (our grandchildren) then they won't have much spare time to enjoy leisure pursuits that don't involve children.

Demonising young mothers is plain bullying. They don't get pregnant on their own.

To be fair, f*ck having kids at any age. The mind boggles as to why anyone could be arsed with the hassle.

epicyclo
boy oh boy did i try mate.....

You're all heart bob

ton,
so did my father 🙂

Which is why I knew what the responsibilities were. He summed it up like this "... only dip your wick in keepers..."

If you really want to stop unwanted teenage pregnancies, then educate the young guys that they have an absolute responsibility to pay for the support of their children.

Go back and read that long post by skidartist, think hard then read it again. I will allow you to miss out on the last line. Then come back and explain why what you have written is shite.

In my line of work, it tends to be the young girls who don't [i]need[/i] abortions who get them, and the ones who would probably benefit from them who won't consider them.

Agreed about relative poverty, and perceived lack of social mobility being a large factor.

The sad thing is that you can spot the whole cycle of deprivation repeating itself.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Go back and read that long post by skidartist, think hard then read it again. I will allow you to miss out on the last line. Then come back and explain why what you have written is shite.

It isn't shite. If you're not prepared to support your children you're less than a man.

Who here is still deeply in love with the first and only person they've ever kissed?

I think there are plenty of teenage fathers out there who are more than aware of what their responsibilities might be, but being duty bound alone is not the secret of a successful family.

If you check Wilkinson's slide on social mobility, the most unequal countries have the least hope of moving up. In that context, people are more likely to behave in a chaotic and self-destructive fashion plus become obese.

Bill

I've got Wilkinson and Picketts book sitting here waiting to be read (might be a long wait I can probably count number of books I've read in the last 12 years one hand, some I didn't finish). Had a quick flick through those powerpoints but don't want any spoilers!

Slides 11 and 12 are absolute jaw droppers though. Shocking Shocking Shocking!

The thing is though, it should all be obvious.

What puzzles me (and if I'd read the book maybe it wouldn't) is that while all these things can corollate with income inequality, the poor in our country are not poor in absolute terms. Why should the presence of much richer people turn other people's modest lives into intolerable ones. What is it that rich people do, or seem to do? I think the money is just an easy measure, but whats happening socially, culturally, politically to cause all this? It seems too obvious to say wealth should simply be distributed more evenly, but I don't know what actions you could really take to make that happen (short of communism which tends to result in lots of corpses).

Issues of social mobility aside, it will always be the lot of some people to be poor, for some of the time or all of the time. What can be done to make a humble life a noble life?

It isn't shite. If you're not prepared to support your children you're less than a man.

It is now go and read what skidartist wrote and try and engage a brain cell or two.

Spot on analysis skidartist.

Protect yourself from what? Whats the worst that can happen when the worst is already happening? Has always been happening.

Have a look at the work of Emile Durkheim and his concept of Anomie (Lawlessness). Apply these theories to modern society and many parallels can be drawn.

who was it said"the rich get richer and the poor get pregnant"?

Some findings from some research into teenage pregnancy concluded:

"Teen conceptions that follow through to maternity most often involve an older partner, who can potentially exert much negative control over the relationship
Most teen conceptions involve girls from deprived areas, who have done poorly at school and who have families with unhealthy relationships. Most girls have also had something to do with the care system
Benefits and housing are NOT motivators for teen pregnancy. They may be ‘pull’ factors but they are not ‘push’ factors."

Skidartist, one of the(many) points about Wilkinson's data plus the UN table of childhood wellbeing is that so much more can be achieved even within the context of capitalism. A slightly different direction but check out Anna Minton's 'Ground Control' and Tim Kasser's 'High Price of Materialism'. All this stuff links up and shows how we're currently going in the very wrong neoliberal direction.

What? Two other books? I'll be dead before I finish them 🙂

But if they have some pictures then I'm sold!

Search out the very good review article on Minton's book:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/05/ground-control-anna-minton-review

What puzzles me (and if I'd read the book maybe it wouldn't) is that while all these things can corollate with income inequality, the poor in our country are not poor in absolute terms. Why should the presence of much richer people turn other people's modest lives into intolerable ones. What is it that rich people do, or seem to do?

Very good question. It would seem that the poverty is not the problem, nor is lack of education (certainly I was brought up with significantly lower "sex ed" than is currently provided, yet our years had relatively low teen pregnancy?), it would seem perception of *relative* poverty may be a problem? Having said that, while the rich/poor gap (I'm not sure how it's calculated exactly) may be 9x in the UK, the vast majority of the "rich" are never seen by the remaining sections, even the middle class rarely mix with the "rich", so one could assume that the "poor" might really only get to meet/see/interact with the middle class, where the differential is probably not 9x?

And is the attitude of disgust towards the poorer side of the population actually deserved, or is it vastly over-done by the media? I mean the cause of the stories of dodgy areas, knife crime, crime/gang -ridden areas etc ARE justified initially, but then do they get out of proportion? While I live 5 miles from the worst areas of Glasgow I rarely see it, but I have had problems such as mindless vandalism and criminal damage even in one of the best areas.

To be fair, f*ck having kids at any age. The mind boggles as to why anyone could be arsed with the hassle.

Coffeeking - I wonder if it is to do with the media obsession with money and celebrity - seems there are a lot of media publications which focus on having the right dress / car / jewellery / bathroom / trainers / bike etc etc etc - maybe this is where the perception of relative poverty comes from - more a wanting more than they can get and not being happy with what they have.

Coffeeking, rape and robbery with violence stories occupy about 46% of crime stories in newspapers but they are only 3% of all recorded crime. The crime rate is actually falling but people's perceptions are encouraged to be based on fear of everworsening crime. This is a neat way of justifying more cctv, more police powers, armed police etc etc. All very important things when the system is in crisis.

The thing is we talk about the poorer sector of society like they are a citizens of a foreign country. They're just ordinary folk. The folk in Possil and Sighthill are just ordinary folk. Talk to them, they're nice. They've had some tough breaks perhaps but they've got life skills and .... get this.... they've got a community that supports them too.

I think the media broadly suffers from not being able to understand and represent the ordinary. The media is made up of the rich and trendy and even if they wanted to, by and large they wouldn't know how to find, meet, befriend, talk to, and empathise with someone ordinary. And I mean this, they'll tell you outright, they don't know how to do it. If you make television then 'access' is the key to everything, its gold dust. You can have a great idea, but if you can't access the people to point the camera at then forget it. The media just doesn't know how to access ordinary people. And it hasn't been able to do so for such a long time that ordinary life and ordinary perspectives and ordinary experiences are so foreign to television audiences that even if they get access tv doesn't know how to serve that experience to the viewing public, even to ordinary people. Its not part of the media language.

And then there's charities........ thats a kettle of fish for another day

Double post!

Join big dummy

*Applause skidartist*

The thing is we talk about the poorer sector of society like they are a citizens of a foreign country. They're just ordinary folk. The folk in Possil and Sighthill are just ordinary folk. Talk to them, they're nice.

The problem is, from my experience, they often ACT like they're their own country. Not always, of course, and take everyone as you find them, but from past experience they seem almost more likely to pre-judge a "middle class" person as the reverse. Maybe it's an automatic response as some sort of self-preservation. On a one-to-one basis I'd always treat people the same regardless, but I don't think it's unfair to assume stereotypes grow from trends, or is it? Of course there are often poor families that are just caught up in all of that nonesense, and that's why you have to take everyoen as you find them, but is it then wrong to make a link between, on average, poverty and crime?

Though you say "talk to them, they're nice" - I've only twice been subject to attempted assault while commuting home on the bike, once was in croxteth in Liverpool (very dodgy area) and once was near Sighthill. IF you were to assume theyre just normal nice folk, why are such occurances more likely in those areas? Why are they fairly regularly at each others throats and lobbing stuff across roads. Why do they corner cars that drive into their road and not let you out for amusements sake? The middle class wouldn't do that if a rich person turned up in a Rolls, they'd twitch a curtain and maybe admire, then go back to fixing their MTB.

I think it's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other in a lot of cases, but it's just as hard for the middle class to let their guard down and talk to the local poorer quarters as it woudl be for the poorer people to walk into an up-market pub and have a chat to the locals.

Bum sex

I'll pass thanks.

On a related tangent, Breadline Britain is covering this very topic over a short series.

but is it then wrong to make a link between, on average, poverty and crime?

Yes, to make a link between poverty and crime [i]per se[/i]. You can of course make links between poverty and [b]types[/b] of crime.

There is definitely the [i]perception[/i] (arguably due to disproportionate reporting in the media and concentration of police resources in poor areas)that poverty and crime & deviancy go hand in hand, but what about so called white collar crime such as fraud? Tax evasion? Managers/Directors driving home after a boozy lunch? There is also the argument that more wealthy people can afford better representation in court and thus conviction rates are lower. Perpetuating the perception that poverty = criminality.

Poverty I would say, predisposes people to certain types of crime, much the same as relative wealth predisposes people to other types of crime.

anagallis_arvensis - Member
"It isn't shite. If you're not prepared to support your children you're less than a man."
It is now go and read what skidartist wrote and try and engage a brain cell or two.

You'd better explain to me why what I have said is shite in detail, obviously my brain cell isn't big enough.

I'm sorry if my comments don't fit with your theories, but they are based on our experiences as teenage parents.

Wot coffeeking said.

Also - poor people are not, by and large, poor by accident. On the whole they are people who made bad decisions at some point. Maybe the consequence of those decisions is out of proportion, but it's the way it happens. People who make bad decisions are more likely to be unable to figure out that throwing a brick at a cyclist is not likely to lead to a positive outcome, in the long run.

You'd better explain to me why what I have said is shite in detail, obviously my brain cell isn't big enough.

I'm sorry if my comments don't fit with your theories, but they are based on our experiences as teenage parents

Because people at the bottom end of the socio-economic scale do not consider the need to pay for anything as they dont have any money apart from government hand outs and these are available for babies.

i find myself agreeing with epicyclo, he had kids as a teenager, stuck with his girlfriend, provided for them, if every young lad who knocked-up his girlfriend had his attitude it would be great, and he is right, if you have kids then runaway and don't support them, you're no man, no matter what age you are, too many people don't stand up to their responsibilities, just expect the state to keep bailing them out, time after time.

There probably is girls out there who do get pregnant on purpose and go out to trap a young lad, telling them they're on the pill, but, it's very simple, use something, don't believe them, take precautions yourself, you don't even have to pay for them now.

i find myself agreeing with epicyclo, he had kids as a teenager, stuck with his girlfriend, provided for them, if every young lad who knocked-up his girlfriend had his attitude it would be great, and he is right, if you have kids then runaway and don't support them, you're no man, no matter what age you

I don t disagree with that, all makes sense. What I dont agree with is that making young people take financial responsibility for kids will not help as those kids having the vast majority of the kids have no money anyway, thats why raising ambition is IMO the only worthwhile approach to take.

I think we'll have to disagree on this one, kids have to learn a level of responsibility, even at a young age, they have to take responsibilty for their actions otherwise they'll never learn, you can't keep bailing people out of their mistakes, or they'll just keep making them knowing there will be no repercussions, and having got two boys, 19 and 21, they certainly need to learn some responsibilty.

I'm not disagreeing with any notions of personal responsibility, for anyone. Nor would I say its absent within poorer communities - nor is it absent within families that had their children young as Epicyclo demonstrates. Even in the circumstances where young families break down I don't think the teen father is unaware of the gravity of the situation or the role they should play, but an unhappy relationship isn't good for any of the three of them. But while the overall concern is that a teen pregnancy can compromise the future of both the parent and the child (or are we still convinced they're all money grubbing scroungers?) it isn't the case that it always will.

Epicyclo is still with his childhood sweetheart, who else can say that? (And stalking people of facebook doesn't count) He'll celebrate his 80th Aniversary one day and it'll be in the papers! (I remember a 90-something year old couple on the news celebrating their 80th, asked what the secret of a long and loving relationship was the guy said its all down to two magic little words ; "Yes Dear")

Anyway its not wrong to say personal responsibiltity is important, or education, or fairer or crueler benefit system or any number of other things are important. But thats all things that other people should do. The issue is bigger than education, or tax and its bigger than government, the government has so little it can do to effect how people feel. Its about what [i]I[/i] can do. Me myself. I don't actually know what I can actually do though. I can at least look and think and care.

"Reality, as it evolves, sweeps me with it. I'm struck by everything and, though not everything strikes me in the same way, I am always struck by the same basic contradiction: although I can always see how beautiful anything could be if only I could change it, in practically every case there is nothing I can really do. Everything is changed into something else in my imagination, then the dead weight of things changes it back into what it was in the first place. A bridge between imagination and reality must be built."

anagallis_arvensis - Member
...What I dont agree with is that making young people take financial responsibility for kids will not help as those kids having the vast majority of the kids have no money anyway...

But they will take it if you have raised your kids to be decent humans. The rule of only dipping your wick in keepers is a good one. The rule of paying your way is another.

As for money. We had none. Often we faced the choice of eating or heating the place. I could get only casual jobs. We never got or sought any money from the government. I made a bit extra by buying and repairing bikes but wasn't commercial enough to make a business out of it because my customers tended to be as poor as us.

But we didn't have it as bad as the single mothers - at least one of us could go out and make some money. The poverty hell some of those girls go through because some rat doesn't pull his weight has coloured my attitude to "men" who don't stand by their kids. Those guys are real parasites. Condemn them, not the victims.

The best thing I ever did was emigrate to Australia. Boy, did life improve!