I'm not disputing there is a clear correlation. I'm saying it's very rare. Approx 2% of the adult UK population regularly take coke. Let's say that's 2% of 20-50 year olds. That is around 400000 regular users.
I don't know the stats, but how many have acute mi incidents occur in that population every year?
And i am saying its not. I googled a load of acedemic studies on this and its very clear. ~acute MI in younger men is often cocaine related. I haven't posted them but I can
anyway its a distance from the crux of the debate I hoped for and a distraction. that population acute MI is fairly rare - but many of the events are cocaine related so its a common cause of a rare event.
Two things I can see would be the first hurdles; 1. The illegal market will react to the competition
This is probably the biggest problem for legalisation. Currently ecstasy pills cost about £5-7 a go and they're strong, enough for a couple of doses. MDMA crystals are approx £20-30 for a bag which contains enough for around 10 doses (at least!). By the time legal suppliers have navigated themselves around all the regulations and tax is added I don't see how legalised MDMA could get anywhere close to these prices so the black market would continue as it is. The gangs won't give up their monopoly easily and will always be able to undercut legal suppliers.
actually here is one that is fairly readable
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0828282X22002872#preview-section-abstract
The risk of myocardial infarction is significantly elevated in the first several hours after cocaine use,50 with one group reporting a 24-fold increase in risk within 60 minutes of use.51
I fully accept my view may be skewed by personal experience. I have no doubt one death and two strokes amongst folk I know were inextricably linked and directly caused by cocaine usage with bad lifestyle underlying it
Dazh - we can supply paracetomol for 10 p a gramme. MY view is that folk will generally go for a known regulated high quality product over black market so long as the price is not too high. Black market prices are all about how much they can get not how much it costs to make. MDMA is not hard to make
Badly made MDMA ends up with a strychnine (like substance??) in it - most pill poppers will know what this is like if you get a bad batch. Few would want to risk that if a clean regulated pill is available
Always thought legalising was the way ahead, harder drugs like heroin and so on, you could make it a lot safer (not cut with anything), and if made for the NHS, would cost pennies, same with other stuff.
Cannabis again, used by loads, could make it safer and cheaper, could treat a lot of things, but you also bring in the risks associated with driving and so on, first accident caused by someone high as a kite and it'll be front page news, how do you work out limits safely and stop the bad press, that'll be the hard bit.
MDMA and cocaine are party drugs, you can make them safer easily via licensed sales, but you're opening a door to a future where it's going to cause more issues longer term, and again, always being a thorny subject for either side.
Reducing the black market would be an added benefit, organised crime would lose a huge amount of its trade, same with costs to the NHS from substandard products causing medical issues, but it would be an absolute battlefield to get anything through parliament!
but it would be an absolute battlefield to get anything through parliament!
Understatement of the year!
I'll admit now I have had a colourful past in relation to this, not all of the above mind. However, there has been no known deaths due to cannabis, you can't overdose on it, take too much and you'll just fall asleep for a bit and wake up hungry. I also think that as most people smoke cannabis mixed with tobacco (and also deeper, longer hits than just smoking) it is more difficult to see results of weed alone. Look at how much tax the US government has made since making it available, surely a good thing. I can't for the life of me see why it is illegal when a drug like alcohol is freely available and caused many, many deaths. I agree with the statement that jeffl made before, if alcohol was discovered today it would be banned. Decrimalising weed is the way forward I think. I also think it is hypocritical for the government to say its bad when one of our old prime ministers husband is involved in the biggest weed farm in europe.
(I've ranted enough so I'll stop now)
The author of Good Cop Bad War spent years as an undercover tracking smack dealers leading to hundreds of arrests and court time. At the end of his project they calculated he'd disrupted the trade for 20 minutes.
aide - as Kramer pointed out it will have a high risk of lung cancer. But in the same ballpark as tobbacco maybe?
Otherwise you are right - the fatal dose has been theoretically worked out IIRC and its many kilos - less if you drop it on someones head from 50 ft
TJ - your still thinking along the lines of smoking it, what about people that use edibles? — less risk of lung cancer there I think
Oh for sure. Fair point. No real risk from eating it I would think
Oh yes - take a person, add cocaine and lo and behold - instant arsehole
I was given a pill over the weekend. The old me would have swallowed it there and then. It's in my desk drawer until I can figure out if I can get it tested.
Lidl Stamp fwiw.
. I googled a load of acedemic studies on this and its very clear. ~acute MI in younger men is often cocaine related. I haven’t posted them but I can
As you say, a common cause of a very rare thing is still a very rare thing
actually here is one that is fairly readable
Well aware of that statistic and article. And if I'm a healthy 25 year old reading that my stroke risk goes up 24x in the hour following coke consumption, id probably stay well clear. However in reality, 24x absolutely bugger all risk (for a non coke user) is still a miniscule amount of risk
Drugs are bad, cocaine is terrible. But the chances of you dying from a few lines of coke if you are fit and healthy is miniscule
Nearly everyone I know has taken coke at some point, and none have died from a few lines down the pub.
This probably speaks more about circles than lines. I can probably count the number of people I know personally who have done coke on the fingers of one hand.
"correlation between cannabis use and psychosis" - yet THC is fat soluble and the brain is very much fatty tissue.. what does the science say on this? These 'middle class' types who use it with no consequence... is that no consequence after 10 years of use? 20 years? 30? How heavy / regular? How would their lives have panned out if they weren't dope smokers? More successful / happy? Or perhaps more alcoholic/shambolic? Depends on the person.. that's one reason why drugs are illegal- there are professional drivers who are completely safe at 120mph, but we don't raise the speed limit to 120 because the vast majority couldn't cope with it.
Where decriminalisation has occurred, things have often gone pear shaped. British Columbia has had to reverse decriminalisation after it led to open hard drug use on streets, and headlines such as "How decriminalisation made Vancouver the fentanyl capital of the world" aren't really selling the place to me.
Nope, I'm with Nancy Reagan on this one and I have had a fair amount of contact and experience with the issue, including family member jailed for dealing and friends' deaths from overdose as well as being able to observe others' lives over a long period of time, ie decades
I guess OTOH we ought to recognise that mountain bikes were born in the Fairfax/Repack area where everyone sat around cross legged listening to The Doors all day and invented off road bikes in order to reach their hidden crops that needed watering....
Just a sad anecdote from me, a good friends lad had a drug induced psychosis, it destroyed his life and he almost took his family down with him.
He grew up with my lad and it was horrible to watch the events unfold and completely horrific for his family.
grimep - you need to differentiate between different drugs. They have different effects on individuals and society and some are legal - ie chocolate, caffeine, alcohol and tobacco
Anecdote is not evidence but I know a few life long smokers in their 60s. all hold down professional responsible jobs and all are happy well adjusted people.
Sure, you can waddle into an offy and buy a bottle of scotch, use it responsibly and it's not dangerous, you could hold down a professional job and be happy and adjusted. Or you could waddle into the offy buy a bottle of scotch, crack the lid, chug the whole thing back in one go. I'd bet you couldn't hold down a professional job [for long at least]
Same with legalising drugs, you might sell it in safe quantities, but that just gives the illegal trade a way back in straight away, but anyway you've no control over how people will use it, and the ways they will invent to abuse it, or what they'll mix it with. You will (unwittingly perhaps) add to the heap of human misery and probably deaths of people that otherwise wouldn't have.
I'm all for decriminalising personal use, but legalising it will kill people.
Why would you get something of unknown quality on the black market when you can get a better product at a reasonable price legally?
why would I go to a shop when the dealer will come to my door, will have drugs of known quality that will always be cheaper?
Nickc - sorry dude thats really not how it works. One of the advantages of a legal market done properly is high quality stuff at a reasonable price easily available. Colarado mucked up the legal market. Canada did not.
also what you are claiming is simply not seen in countries with a legal or decrim market.
Edit - apologies - this should not be about me trying to convince. this should be a discussion point and your view is valid.
Currently ecstasy pills cost about £5-7 a go and they’re strong, enough for a couple of doses.
Really? Because I never tire of hearing bams talking about taking 2 or 3 of an evening. Either they're talking shit or taking shit.
why would I go to a shop when the dealer will come to my door, will have drugs of known quality that will always be cheaper?
See my point above. What known quality?
I was in Prague for the last week or so, weed is decriminalised there, they sell it by strength. Never had a dealer offer that, the choice was always take it or leave it.
MDMA standard dose is 250 mg. per pill 125 or 100 is a half dose or half a pill. So 4 full doses in a gram of crystal MDMA. It will get you high but not the full effect on a half dose. Mdma lasts about 4 - 5 hours so what some folk will do is take half doses at 2 hour intervals thru the night. rather than a full dose in one go. 3 decent pills in one night will leave you a gurning mess and p[ossibly pass out / lose contact with reality unless very spaced out
Illegal drug market is also split with poor quality stuff cheap for the bams and higher but still unknown quality stuff more expensive for the non bams
so squirrelking your bams are probably doing both 🙂
Yeah if you look at the US states that legalised Cannabis early on, so have a history of data, its worked well. Colorado has seen no extra uptake by users, particularly the young and increased tax revenues that have gone into health and education. Hopefully increased collaboration between Scotland and UK govt might see that happen in Scotland as an initiative for the rest of the UK.
I took any recreational drug I could get my hands on when I lived in Northern Ireland in the nineties aged 18 to maybe 25? I was lucky that the Troubles reduced the availability of the hard stuff, cloud with a silver lining. Drug use, mainly cannabis and LSD, probably did hold me back, but you could just as easily say the impediment to growing up/gathering responsibilities at that stage of my life was fanatical mountain biking.
Since moving to Scotland in 1999 mild and now very occasional cannabis use.
Criminalising people for use of any drug is a nonsense. I think people get lost in drugs because of a lack of opportunity.
My very straight edged ex police officer wife who now works as a drug and alcohol recovery nurse agrees with decriminalisation.
I also worked as a sales rep for a major brewer for five years - from what I saw in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee working mens pubs it is a disgrace that alcohol is more socially acceptable than cannabis.
The mental health risk apparent with some drugs is hard to resolve though. That said the government hasn't outlawed social media that damages kids mental health.
Colorado had real issues early on with the legal product being poor quality ( think this was colorado) What happened was it was state licensed growers but they refused to license anyone who had been in the illegal market - so the licensed growers had no real experience and thus the product was poor. they had to start advertising for growers with experience 🙂 They sorted it out tho after a year or two.
Canada didn't make this mistake so the products were good from day one ass ther illegal growers just shifted to the legal market. There is still some black market stuff. I think unlike here tho most of their black market growers were enthusiasts rather than criminal gangs. do not know for sure. You go into a cannabis shop and tghere might be 50 differnt products on sale. You don't get that in the black market
Its certainly the general trend that after legalization you get an increase in usage then it drops away again to pre decriminalisation levels or even lower.
People far prefer to buy a known quality product from a legal source where this is available assuming the cost is not significantly higher than the black market
from what I saw in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee working mens pubs it is a disgrace that alcohol is more socially acceptable than cannabis.
The thing about alcohol is it is not only socially acceptable, but actively encouraged, and at a governmental level. It is the drug the they insisted we all take.
Our culture is set up around it.
You go into a cannabis shop and there might be 50 different products on sale. You don’t get that in the black market
The reason i gave up smoking weed is i was becoming rather ill. I suspected that it was being sprayed with something nasty, which is something that is known to increase its potency.
undercover tracking smack dealers leading to hundreds of arrests and court
I think he was working in Nottingham and took out one gang. All that happened is that a rival gang that had been trying to move into their area then did it with minimal hassle.
The mental health risk apparent with some drugs is hard to resolve though.
Yes. One issue is its very hard to do valid research when its illegal. You rely on folk self reporting and there is often multi drug use so valid conclusions are hard to make
There is a link with cannabis and psychosis. AS I said above there are 3 theories. One that its a direct cause and its a lottery if you get psychotic. Or its purely coincidental and that folk more likely to have psychosis take cannabis hence the higher rates and psychosis often starts in your teens and 20s and the third which I believe is that Cannabis acts as a trigger for those susceptible to psychosis ie they would get it anyway at some point but the cannabis use means it happens now
Cannabis also alters your brain chemistry and this is particularly so with developing ie under 21yr old brains. However what these changes mean is far from clear.
Legalisation would mean that decent research could be done. there are theories around THC to CBD and other cannabinoid levels in the weed but as far as I know not conclusive.
countries with more liberal drug laws that ours do not seem to have higher levels of psychosis in young folk as far as I am aware
Mind you when I had some weed and went for a walk in the woods in Canada I was more than a little paranoid about the bears that lurk in the woods 🙂
Lots of MDMA usage or stronger hallucinogens can lead to "fried brains" it would seem - some cognitive impairment but its rare and you have to try very hard and possibly be a multi drug user
Harm reduction does not mean ignoring this stuff. It means minimizing dangers and legalization makes it easier to get help when required
On the face of it the arguments seem compelling that access to drugs should be carefully managed but legal, just like booze... but:
Just a sad anecdote from me, a good friends lad had a drug induced psychosis, it destroyed his life and he almost took his family down with him.
He grew up with my lad and it was horrible to watch the events unfold and completely horrific for his family.
I can think of multiple examples of this. Most of them are still affected ~30 years later. Two died in their 30s. To think an evening as a 15-year-old could effectively ruin a life is tragic.
Personally, i can manage my alcohol intake. I got addicted to tobacco from combining it with dope but quite that as found myself increasingly anxious when high. MDMA gave me a come down so bad i'd never go near it again. Same with Meth. Coke did bugger all, could barely feel it - total waste of money. Whizz was just convenient and acid probably the most interesting of the lot - but too many stories from friends that scared me off.
I’d be all for the legalisation of cannabis and psylocybin in the uk.
At the moment, with only alcohol being the only legal recreational drug, it’s actually an extremely sexist policy decision.
Alcohol/ floor polish is a pretty dodgy substance, but more so for men.
There’s a qualitative difference in the experience between the sexes.
For women, it seems to induce some kind of hormonal rush that’s obviously lost on men.
For men, a trip to the pub is as interesting as spending an evening at the corporation bus depot. You’re drumming your fingers, glancing at you’re watch every thirty seconds.
Just mindless tedium, whilst you’re waiting for a ride.
But to women, they can’t understand why men are not flocking around them, at the corporation bus depot, and get extremely frumpy in the process.
Women, take note. If you want to meet the hot blokes, go to the Netherlands, or petition the govt to legalise cannabis.
Given that the drinks lobby exercises so much influence over the govt, it may be easier to collectively abstain from alcohol purchases. You’ll see a pretty rapid policy reversal. As would abstaining from county-lines drug purchases.
Should you want to rejuvenate the high st, take a note from the Netherlands.
The revenue from cannabis tourism must be staggering.
The cannabis works as a bulwark against the skank and squalor that goes hand in hand with alcohol consumption.
What about the risk of psychosis?
Theres so much crap in alcohol that it does induce psychosis. To the non-drinker, it’s like venturing out, into a world of mass hysteria.
People are literally tripping on the latest social panic.
With cannabis, it’s all about finding the strain with the ratio of THC/ CBD that works for you.
As for psylocybin, the only problem with these substances is that they only ever reached the already converted.
Your Farage, Trump, Putin, Vatican, wriggled out of their grasp.
Inagine the kind of world we could be living in, had ISIS or Le Pen had been force fed DMT☺️☺️☺️
it does change brain chemistry and many folk become life long stoners but this does not effect their ability to hold down professional jobs and be contributing members of society.
I worked with a guy like that, back in the 70’s. Long hair, flairs, long-sleeved tee shirts, used to roll up joints in the studio, for what he called ‘herbal insporation’. He was a brilliant freehand artist, he used to sit doodling steam locomotives, with all the details, and in perspective too, just out of habit, while thinking about a design. He’d roll a joint, then there’d be a flurry of activity from his corner of the room. Smashing bloke, went to his place in Bath the afternoon before a gig, gave me a small piece of resin to chew on because I wouldn’t smoke it.
Completely off my face for hours afterwards, even while waiting for the train home late that evening - according to a friend I saw. I can’t remember…
I remember seeing some amazing things looking through a book of his about Antoni Gaudi, which did prompt a question about whether he was using it as well.
I’ve never tried it since, that’s what, fifty years ago, and never felt the need. Nor anything else, except alcohol, and that in moderation, I don’t actually like the out of control sensation. Or the spinny room thing, either. Especially that! [img] 
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I think skunk can be psychologically addictive . At least with legalization the occasional spliff could be purchased rather than having to buy it in quarters or halves and be permanently off your face. I've known Cambridge professors who were regular users and an actor in a popular agricultural (!) radio series, all stayed on top of their game.
nevermind.
the rave generation would never have happened without MDMA.
It's true that every music has its drug - but drugs don't 'make things happen'.
theres a romantic notion that drugs are a sort of creative performance enhancer. But they're not - they just compliment to mood. People who like the franticness of speed will enjoy the franticness of punk. But you can enjoy punk anyway..People who like the visual and aural qualities of LSD will enjoy the dreaminess of psychedelia, but you can write or enjoy psychedelia any.
The drugs are incidental but compilmentary - its like saying you wouldn't have had the cheese generation without wine.
I want to drink in the bus depot where Greatbeardedone drinks - sounds like an easy pull!
Unless.... it actually is a bus depot
It feels like there are a lot of drugs already being handed out at this 'bus depot'... 😉 Agree with the conclusions (decriminalise), but the reasoning felt like some sort of psilocybin induced essay.
maccruikeen
I think you can be right for folk listening to the music but without the drugs the performers / creators would not create it. I have no doubt that some drugs increase creativity
