Forum menu
I think the key thing is to read from a number of different sources. I find that the best way to get a more balanced viewpoint…
Yeah I certainly agree - which is why I am reading the book I am reading now (previously mentioned - The German War) which documents the feelings of the general public and some Wehrmacht soldiers (who were generally just doing their duty to their nation without necessarily supporting or believing in Nazi policies). It is fascinating and certainly one I would recommend (I think someone on here recommended it to me).
Lancaster by John Nichol is pretty decent, albeit focused on the aircraft in the title.
But there is much coverage of wider policy, strategy and impact on those in the front line.
He also co-wrote Tail End Charlies which is very good.
Both rely heavily on first hand accounts. Highly recommended.
As an aside, I’m reading ‘Tornado’ by him, it’s focused on the ground attack missions during the 1st Gulf war.
Excellent read.
As an aside, I’m reading ‘Tornado’ by him, it’s focused on the ground attack missions during the 1st Gulf war.
Excellent read.
Sorry for the slight hijack, but agreed - it's brilliant. Was fascinating as it gives a different perspective to his first account - 'Tornado Down'. Also, puts into perspective how the WWII crews must have felt doing >30 sorties in a tour. I think that's why Nichol's books on the aerial war in WWII are so compassionate and focussed on the human costs. He's a great author.
Rather than speculate what Germans think about the war, have a read:
It dates from the Blair years but nothing much has changed. The rest of Europe has moved on and finds it odd that Britain hasn't and keeps harking back to the events of 70 year ago especially where foreign policy is concerned.
I'll translate the second sentence which sums up the article for you:
"Höchste Zeit für die Briten, ihre Besessenheit mit dem Siegeskult um den Zweiten Weltkrieg aufzugeben"
"High time for the Brits to give up their obsession with their victors cult around the second world war"
Not a book but may be of interest to the historians out there. Scroll down about three quarters of the way for the Air Historical Branch narratives on the strategic bombing campaigns. The reports are certainly not critical of Harris per-se but they are critical, in parts, of strategic bombing as a concept and of its conduct.
https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/units/air-historical-branch/second-world-war-campaign-narratives1/
@AngusWells
Fascinating. I had no idea there was an internal history. It's brilliantly analytical in terms of data too. Thanks!
Rather than speculate what Germans think about the war
Who's speculating? There's plenty of German sources in the materials listed to date.
I read Chastise and thought it very good - what I didn't like was his (in my view) unwarranted criticism of Paul Brickhill's The Dambusters (Hastings said Brickhill didn't acknowledge the POW casualties of the raid - I'm positive he did). But then, The Dambusters is one of my favourite books EVER. 🙂
Finished Richard Morris's outstanding biography of Leonard Cheshire recently - I cannot believe that there's a finer portrait of that amazing, fascinating man.
Rather than speculate what Germans think about the war
As I said in my OP, I am reading something from the German perspective right now - this one 👍
Did you know that Der Spiegal was partly funded and founded by the British Occupation Authority in 1947 @edukator?
Interesting how the war still touches so much of Europe's modern history.
I think it’s a bit of a myth that Germany has moved on from the war, though as ever one has to be careful of generalisations. I have a few German colleagues and acquaintances and they seem to be just as obsessed with ‘the war’ as most of the British people I know, albeit with a very different emphasis. I think the British obsession with it is also largely concentrated in the older generation.
I don’t think any of this is that surprising though is it? I mean a lot of Brits see it as the country’s finest hour, and like it or not the war defined Germany for many decades, even dividing the country in two for nearly 50 years.
Not intending to be controversial by the way as wouldn’t want to hijack the op’s very reasonable request!
The Mighty Eighth covers the role of the US 8th Air Force. Quite dry and factual but I found it fascinating
Most of the books in my collection I'd have mentioned have already had a recommendation - but from German POV - Bonfire of Berlin by Helga Schneider was a short but entertaining read of someone under the bombs as they dropped.
One of the reasons the British do go on about the war, is not so much it's "victory", but that so much social policy stems from decisions made afterwards, looking back.
Without the war, we probably wouldnt have massive social changes, such as a comprehensive, free at point of service NHS, so much social housing, slum clearances, 60s brutalist architecture, comprehensive education, or long term pension provision.
All striven for to make the world a better place than it was in 1939, and in part to deal with the damaged generation the war left over.
Aftermath by Harald Jahner is also really good - not specifically bombing related but deals with the decade after the war, so inevitably the physical and social impact of the bombing plays a big part…really good.
For an interesting view of a little covered aspect of bomber command’s operations Mast High Over Rotterdam looks at an operation by the light bomber force in 1941 before the better known heavy bomber offensive had got going. It is meticulously researched by a relative of one of the crews and highlights the ineffectiveness of the weapons available early in the war, but also the effect of operations like this in tying up resources which would otherwise have been available for Barbarossa. An old neighbour of mine led the only crew to hit the ship which was the primary target, although without effect.
Mission to Berlin by Robert F Dorr is a snapshot of an aspect of the8th Air Forces bomber offensive.
The Nuremberg Raid by Martin Middlebrook is a good read. Gives an interesting take to the RAF's worst day.
My very first flying instructor, Ken, survived that mission whilst flying his 101 Sqn Lancaster, one of his 59....
Gladwell - The Bomber Mafia: A Story Set in War
Is excellent.
The Nuremberg Raid by Martin Middlebrook is a good read.
Martin Middlebrook has written about a number of raids:
The Peenemünde Raid, The Battle of Hamburg, The Battle of Berlin, The Schweinfurt-Regensburg Mission etc, interesting and full of background detail.
I mentionned Royan on the previous page. Royan was one of those utterly futile raids that turned a town into rumble, missed the majority of the military targets because the RAF bombers had the wrong map and killed lots of civilians due to a late warning that reached the authorities after the raid had happened by the time it was translated. There was a programme on FR3 last night and it's on replay for anyone interested, especially those with a bit of French. Général de Larmina gets most of the blame but there was a long series of errors and failures in communication that lead to the pointless bombing.
https://www.france.tv/documentaires/histoire/2945517-la-france-en-vrai-la-tragedie-de-royan.html
I think it's pretty obvious how to sign up. You don't need to validate the e-mail so any junk mail address will do.
So, as recommended early on I am reading Bomber Boys and enjoying it - so much so I have added Fighter Boys to my Christmas list. In a million lifetimes I won’t get through all the books I should read about the wars, I just hope I get to read the most pertinent.
Anecdotally, I only have my father's recollections of his experiences during WW2 and of course his accounts of colleagues he was in the RAF with during the early 1950s, who'd seen the devastation wrought all over Germany from the air.
FWIW, my father's story does have a couple of twists...
My dad was born in 1934 and is old enough to recall the blitz. He claims that a Nazi fighter shot at him and a number of civilians on the street while he was walking to school - what I can tell you is that he went to school here: https://runner500.wordpress.com/2018/01/17/the-bombing-of-sandhurst-road-school/
He was let out of class early and headed home for lunch. If it wasn't for that he'd have been in class when the bomb hit the school. My dad recalls that some surviving kids claimed that the Nazi plane circled the school first and that the pilot waved at the kids from the cockpit before turning to attack.
Nine years later, my Dad was based in Germany. His CO received a letter from my grandparents asking for special family leave - my grandparents were visiting Germany as my nan had family there. Dad stayed with relatives in the Rhineland and apparently made friends - his cousin Bill (Wilhelm) is in a photo I have on his wedding day. The relative who owned the local gasthaus wasn't too pleased apparently, he'd lost two sons who'd served in the Luftwaffe to allied pilots and understandably wasn't keen on Dad's Bomber Command uniform.
One of the guys in my father's unit flew into Berlin just after unconditional surrender was declared - Dad recalls that the guy was visibly distraught at the extent of the destruction across the city as his plane approached to land - apparently the chap couldn't see a house or tree standing intact from the window of his plane.
After my mum died I went to the house to clear it out before it was sold to pay for my now elderly and frail father's care. I made a bit of a discovery - to the very best of my knowledge, my nan (as in father's mother) was born in Islington from a German immigrant family. It turns out that she was born in the Rhineland and didn't arrive in Britain until she was fourteen. She married my grandfather (also of German descent) in 1913. Grandfather was sent to fight in the trenches during WW1, I still have his campaign medals somewhere.
Although fluent in German, my grandmother never had anything but a broad East-End accent, so much so that Dad himself had no idea that his own mum had been German born.
Tl/Dr - I'm practically half-German and my relationship with the civilian bombing campaigns in WW2 is somewhat complicated.
As dad recalled "A bloke in an RAF uniform came to our assembly and told us that the RAF had launched a reprisal raid against a German school. I don't know if they did or not, at the end of the day we were just kids, as were the children on the other side. Bombing another school doesn't make it right".
As for books - Christabel Bielenberg 's The Past is Myself and The Road Ahead must be required reading, as of course should be the aforementioned Slaughterhouse-Five
Thanks for the link to the doc edukator. Unfortunately it doesn’t work for those of us in the UK.
The raid on Royan is (well) covered in several of the books above, so I wouldn’t say it was ignored or underreported. Sad truth is that is was ‘just’ one of many highly destructive air raids outside Germany, including Monte Cassino in Italy, Malta and Tokyo.
Royan also suffered from weeks of naval bombardmnet, and was the target of napalm bomb experiments by the 8th Air Force. There was a long campaign against the town beyond the fateful RAF raid.