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It never did me any harm
It's not that high a target. I just asked my 6yr old son if he could recite times tables, he got bored at 14 and doing them in a third language. 😉
My take on this, rightly or wrongly, is that once the kids know their times tables inside out then it becomes easier for them to concentrate on the principles behind new learning- they no longer have to spend time working out simple multiplication, addition, subtraction, and division- the answers are ingrained, and they can focus on [i]what[/i] is being taught, rather than being distracted by simple calculations.
Son, year 3, has done his times tables, and is now consigned to the 'torture test', the earlier mentioned 5 minutes to fill in a grid, though his is a 9 by 9 set of problems, not the 12 x 12 thankfully.
Year? Many years
Which ones?
28 October 1995 - precise enough?
Its precise but is it accurate? What is your evidence?
Of course not.
Just got this in my inbox.
The building of a European Union language!
____________________________________________________________________
The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c".. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.
Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.
Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.
😆
So your assertion that literacy and numaracy have got worse is false.
At school we all had to learn our 12 times table by the end of year 3 (6-7 year old). I was in a group of 3 or 4 to be the first in the year to do so and got a bag of crisps for my trouble. I then had to learn the 16 times table while the rest of the year caught up!
Maybe the free school milk back then helped 🙂
Not at all - any scientist would get that - I am just not narrowing that down to an individual year. I am not commented on actual trends merely the expectation or lack of them in this case.
They will stop requiring reading round the subject next 😉 but that's a little older, isn't it!!!
Primary education now is streets ahead of where it was in the 80s, when I went through it...
I still struggle with instant recall of multiplication facts in the 6x, 7x, 8x section of the 12x12 grid, but manage to teach GCSE maths and A-level physics 🙂
The proposals, as I understand them via Twitter this morning, are that heads will be fired if 100% of their Y6 kids don't pass the multiplication tests. That's just ridiculous.
Oh so expectations used to be higher whilst attainment was lower and that was good in thm world?
Oh dear, is it really that much of a struggle??
Never mind. It's not even a story unless you have crap expectations. Pretty simple really.
Oh dear, is it really that much of a struggle??
Talking to you is always a struggle
A typical conversation with thm
The minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago
When was this when everyone could do this?
Not in the last 10 years for sure.
Sadly true.....decades of educational decline......
Thm you really are missing the point here.
Well I guess when the prospective candidate comes a knocking and asking for my vote he or she will need to answer a simple multiplication question first 😀
only as long as you know he answer 🙂
Thm you really are missing the point here.
I know, here I am thinking that there is nothing unusual about expecting 11 year olds to know their times tables and to be able to write using vocab, grammar and punctuation. Shocking....
Still tennis in the snow sharpened the mind since. Perhaps I might get the point now.
Isn't the point that ALL kids know the times tables, not just the ones sitting university entrance exams when they're eight, i.e. NOT LEAVING THE NEGLECTED BEHIND.
I guess it's not as funny scoffing at the mongtards though eh THM?
Who's scoffing?
What is a mongtard? Never heard the expression...
Point 1
I know, here I am thinking that there is nothing unusual about expecting 11 year olds to know their times tables and to be able to write using vocab, grammar and punctuation. Shocking....
You
Point 2
pejorative colloquialism aimed at those of lesser intellectual/academic prowess, derived from Mongol and Retard. Of course if you were that bright I wouldn't have to point it out to you.
That's not scoffing it's simply hoping, as others have said, nothing unusual to expect 11 yr olds to achieve this standard. Sad that teachers think that this is beyond ALL kids - it shouldn't be.
Maybe I am the delightfully named mongtard - charming expression?!?! Sorry to be quite so stupid. But would prefer that insult to mongtard - that really is very unpleasant and unworthy.
teamhurtmore - MemberThe minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago
Doesn't actually mean it's any good, though. It's more valuable to learn how to "scratch count" than it is to rote learn. If you're asked most of my class what 12x13 was, they'd have been boned but hey, they achieved the tickbox for memorising-without-comprehending.
In all honesty I think we overvalue mental arithmetic and paper arithmetic these days, it's useful when handling small numbers and restaurant bills but really it's something that always-available technology does very well. So it becomes a question of the opportunity cost, what could we teach kids instead.
THM - I think it is a bit unfair to post the Eton scholarship paper as indicative what what 12/13 year olds can aspire to - it is an outlier as it is an incredibly competitive field and the guys who get them are both exceptionally bright and well coached.
Not really. Everyone can aim high. Of course, the Eton paper is on a different level. But the gap should never be THAT large. That's a crime. And teachers should be ashamed if they accept that IMO.
They did not accept it a few [s]years[/s] sorry decades ago, why now?!?
Excuse me if I do not consider those ideals as being lofty. But I don't. They should be standards for all. The minister is correct IMO. Simple.
You say that and I understand the sentiment but it can be very difficult to maintain the interest of individuals coached to scholarship level when faced with two to three years of unfulfilling drudgery to GCSE.
EDIT: I agree the minister's suggestions don't seem particularly ambitious.
I know, I have experienced this at first hand. GSCEs are a lower standards than many scholarship papers but that is another story. Seems we are on the same page.
They did not accept it a few years sorry decades ago, why now?!?
I know THM back in the heartbeat epoch there were no such things as innumeracy or illiteracy. 😐
Well at least it wasn't accepted.
But each to their own. No wonder the gaps exist....anyway I am out.
here I am thinking that there is nothing unusual about expecting 11 year olds to know their times tables and to be able to write using vocab, grammar and punctuation.
Unfortunately nor is there anything unusual in you being asked to support your view with facts or evidence and you just repeating your view, which some, oddly, find condescending.
Here it is again
They did not accept it a few years sorry decades ago, why now?!?
If you keep saying it we will keep asking for you to provide evidence to support your claim. I am at a loss as to why you dont even try nor why you just repeat it. To do this whilst lamenting the standards achieved by the education system is the awzomes,
Literacy and numeracy was rife in the past it has improved massively. Those Eton papers are a complete irrelevance when it comes to improving the literacy of those with illiterate patents with massive social wefare problems. I have seen this first hand have you. Expectations can help this people but what they really need are real changes to the educational system not saying heads will be sacked if these kids dont improve, why would any good teacher want to work in these schools they struggle with recruiting good people anyway.
again more noble intentions but not actual substance beyond more of the same
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31087137
All I can say about this is that my friends who are teachers have spent the last 4 saying that the Conservative education policies are indicative of people who have have no idea what they are talking about riding roughshod over the input of teachers in the name of political point scoring with their equally opinionated and ill-informed core voters.
Why do we have MPs who have little or no experience in their brief/fields design policies?
Same reason we commission reports from experts and then declare them unsatisfactory, I guess.... (EG drugs policy).
It's no wonder people are fed up, unaccountable, unrepresentative, ill-informed liers with no idea what they are doing. We wouldn't accept this amateurism from a bike mechanic, why do we accept it from it politicians?
One thing I've learnt is that the vast majority of folk are crap at mental maths, and most tbh are crap with a calculator/computer too.
Age is no barrier to inability.
Sad that teachers think that this is beyond ALL kids - it shouldn't be.
At the primary I taught at there was a lovely lad called Ian. He was friendly, helpful, and caring. He also had Downs Syndrome and, at the age of ten, still working on counting with single digit numbers and threading beads onto strings.
Did his teacher just have low expectations? Should that school's head be fired if Ian failed his times table test in year 6?
"All I can say about this is that my friends who are teachers have spent the last 4 saying that the Conservative education policies are indicative of people who have have no idea what they are talking about riding roughshod over the input of teachers in the name of political point scoring with their equally opinionated and ill-informed core voters."
And all universities and employers say is that they are having to provide new students / recruits with remedial learning for basic numeracy, literacy and verbal reasoning.
The reason that the UK has slipped so far down the international league tables is because these things are not seen as important in schools but are seen as important by just about everyone else - it's one of the reasons that students from "traditional" / [s]regressive[/s] education systems like France are securing so many of the good jobs in the south east.
As ever government focuses on big things they think work, or should work. So we are back to more tests and standards, class sizes and budgets etc. I mean, in the overall plan of things (effort vs improved learning) things like class sizes, homework and fixed exams do very little.
What actually works is very good teaching. And to get that to work, you need to train teachers, invest in teachers, support teachers and then allow them to be good teachers.
The things that work are self reported grades, a focus on the thinking process (not outcomes), formative evaluation, micro teaching, feedback, class discussion, responsiveness of the teacher and relationship between teacher and pupils.
A classroom that meets the above strategies however does not an election winning campaign make.
One thing that is different in Scotland to England (and long term will make a massive difference) is that the dirty business of teaching and learning has been removed from government ministers meddling so much. It is not perfect, but as our new exams settle down (much like Curriculum for Excellence is), it will make a big difference.
Not a single pupil at £30,000 a year boarding schools Eton, Harrow and Marlborough attained the Government's benchmark of five GCSEs at grades A*-C, including maths and English.
What actually works is very good teaching. And to get that to work, you need to train teachers, invest in teachers, support teachers and then allow them to be good teachers.The things that work are self reported grades, a focus on the thinking process (not outcomes), formative evaluation, micro teaching, feedback, class discussion, responsiveness of the teacher and relationship between teacher and pupils.
A classroom that meets the above strategies however does not an election winning campaign make.
Make that person the education secretary please.
all universities and employers say is that they are having to provide new students / recruits with remedial learning for basic numeracy, literacy and verbal reasoning.
What do you expect when we have taught people to pass exams rather than comprehend - recite the times table rather than understand the process.
If you measure the "success" of a school very narrowly then [ some of] the heads will focus on just passing exams as that is what they and the school are judged on.
As every party want to "improve" education they will put pressure on the results.
Mike they failed to recognise the International GCSE they sit there so it is a bit unfair IMHO to use this as stick with which to beat the [s]posh elitist fee paying[/s] highly aspirational schools
So policy is based on those with illiterate parents or suffering from conditions such as Downs???
The wail headline and article is hilarious. Why did these schools drop? Hmmm. Put them on the failing list for choosing different exams. Heaven forbid they might choose pre-u instead of rote learning modulised a levels!!
But on the point of keeping politicians out if education - 100% agree. Then there will be no one else to shift the blame to.
So policy is based on those with illiterate parents or suffering from conditions such as Downs???
Yes that is definitely what they said and meant ...the education system has not let you down 😕
Mike they failed to recognise the International GCSE they sit there so it is a bit unfair IMHO to use this as stick with which to beat the [s]posh elitist fee paying[/s] highly aspirational schools [b]that choose exams where cash seems to buy results, that are now pee'd off as they have been rumbled.[/b]
FTFY
😉
(For what it is worth, having worked with a number of private schools over the last 10 years, they do seem to do well at the 'beyond an exam grade' aspect of learning and life. I also am not familiar enough with iGCES to make a judgement)
I also think we have an issue that is not just government requiring a narrow set of test results - I think there are a bunch of parents out there who want A and A*, and nothing else matters to get into your university of choice. They are 'snowplough' parents, where every possible failure or hurdle has to be removed from their child's path, where exams and all activities must have a certificate and pass mark, and where personal [s]over[/s] confidence seems to be the most valued personality trait going. As an example of this, my kids attend what is supposedly one of the best state schools going - it has huge exam pass rates. It also has the highest drop out rate in the first year of university of any school in Scotland... So we can turn out hundreds of Tarquin's and Jemima's with 10 A's - but they have deep emotional, social and mental issues to take forward into life. Great.
And I know it is not perfect, but again look at the core of the Scottish curriculum - it is all about successful, adaptable, resilient learners who can collaborate with others.
http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/thecurriculum/whatiscurriculumforexcellence/thepurposeofthecurriculum/index.asp
Yes who was it he said that teaching around the syllabus was a waste of time?!?