[Closed] Really simple flat sale - doing your own conveyancing?

My other half who has a law degree looked into doing this. The issue she found was although you can do most of it yourself there are some bits ( mainly handling the money IIRC) that can only be done by someone with the right qualifications and lawyers charge a significant fee for this so the savings over using a local fairminded lawyer was not enough to be worth the hassle.

I think TJ has it. There should be cheap conveyancers around also.

You can still do the direct sale even if you use a pro conveyancer. No need to go thru estate agents and do all the rest of it.

Conveyancing can be done for about £1,000. That's hardly a dent in the 125,000 proceeds from the sale, if you're that worried just add 1k to the sale price!

It can be done for a lot less than that!

Do you know how to draw up the deeds etc, very the documentation right for the Land Registry and be 100% confident everything is absolutely right and watertight?

I just don't see why you'd skimp and not get a solicitor to do it. Far too much at steak to take a punt at amateur conveyancing. Christ even the pros cock it up often enough...

I'd argue a flats inherently more complex than a house sale too. Access, party walls, services etc

It's possible but not straightforward.

The seller's solicitor usually obtains the office copy entries and plan from the Land Registry at the outside. Solicitors do this via a portal.

There are ID requirements - both sides will have to see a solicitor in any event to have ID certified via ID1 forms.

As Duncan said, it's a flat so probably leasehold. Likely to be some complexity inherent in that.

The buyer's solicitor may raise enquiries that you don't know how to deal with. They may also be reluctant to deal with you directly.

You should be able to find a solicitor that will deal with it for around 600 quid. Absolutely no need to use an estate agent though.

Also be aware that the buyer may have some stamp duty to pay if they already own other property.

You can probably do a lot of the legwork in preparation, and get a better price off a friendly solicitor, although they are busy atm.

You will need the last 3 years of service charge accounts from the management company, also some kind of check on buyers source of funds, not sure if self declaration from them is sufficient.

You also may need an energy performance certificate, you do for new tenants so maybe buyers, 50 quid and complete waste of money, no one looked at mine.

Tbh I would just get the buyer to pay for legal work, any deals around 125k will attract interest so keep evidence.

We just sold ours, no chain, no new purchase, cash buyer. Cost £650 after haggling with our local guy for £275k property value.

I've done it a few times as a buyer. Its very easy if both parties are agreeable. There is very little risk for seller, the only important thing is getting the money. As a buyer there is a lot more to check but it can all be done diy.

There are two forms to fill out. ID1 to confirm id, and TR1 to do the transfer. You'll need a copy of the title register which can be downloaded from the land registry for £4

If both parties are happy you can go to the land registry together, with your passport, the fee (about £40) and the forms. How you transfer the money is up to you but I've handed a bankers draft over in the office once the form was signed.

If the other party insists on a lawyer you can still do your bit diy. You need someone to sign the ID1, probably for a fee.

A couple of caveats. This is for a cash purchase, if there is a mortgage company on either side then it is trickier. Also not sure about extra complications from leasehold.

There are a couple of good books with guides in if that might help. One by Which, one by Lawpack

Don't do it. I have two professional qualifications, one in accounting and the other legally based. There's no way I'd do my own conveyancing.

The money handling, the risk of expensive/time consuming errors in legal documents and the hassle of dealing with someone else's solicitor whose only interest is the right outcome for their client.

A flat will be leasehold which adds other complications.

Sod that and if I remember rightly this is a death estate so if you then disburse the funds to the beneficiaries you've got nothing left to settle any later claims if you make a mistake and possibly no claim on the beneficiaries vs. having a professional indemnity policy you can claim against.

It's very hard for someone to criticise you for taking professional advice, much easier for not doing so and messing it up

No brainer £500-1000 well spent.

We bought our current house direct, no agent. We told our solicitor what we wanted to do, he got in touch with theirs and all paperwork done and money transferred safely for a few hundred quid. The only issues were to do with getting all the window certificates, planning documents etc. from the seller.

Getting it wrong can be expensive. About 30 years ago my parents solicitor made a mistake on a house sale and got fined significant money. They didn't have to pay it but if you had no solicitor and make the mistake you would have to pay to get all the legal stuff in order and any fines.

Update and further details... the neighbour/buyer (experienced in buying) does not have, or want, a solicitor, which has already meant that conveyancers we've been in touch with have declined to be involved. The buyer has also outlined all the necessary steps (e.g. the ID1 and the TR1) and the paperwork they need - which we have, and are keen for us to proceed - accepting the risk themselves. There's no mortgage involved on either side.
Other conveyancers have also declined the work on the grounds that they are already too busy with sales being pushed through before the end of the stamp duty holiday!
Does anyone have any specific examples of what can go wrong? I see a lot of warnings but never seem to get any actual concrete examples...

That scares me. Maybe I am overly cynical but why is he so insistent? Dodgy dealings?

The point at which actual, professional conveyancers are refusing to go anywhere near it should tell you all you need to know as to whether it's a good idea for you to DIY it or not.

The point at which a buyer doesn't want to use a solicitor is the point at which I'd be looking for another buyer.

Does anyone have any specific examples of what can go wrong?

No. This is why we give money to people who do. You might get a couple of examples but you need an exhaustive list and you're not going to get that for free, on a mountain bike forum.

I'll give you an example. I had a 'simple' purchase. The previous occupant was an elderly lady who used to have some form of foster care going on for adults with learning difficulties. My solicitor unearthed something somewhere where this meant that it changed the type of dwelling (it was a type 3a rather than type 3, or something like that). This could have had an impact in regards to requiring things like annual check-ups or extra maintenance certificates. In the end it turned out to be a non-issue but this is the sort of random weirdness that could get turned up.

Solicitors are expensive. Mistakes are potentially very expensive.

I smell a bit of money laundering going on, or something dodgy.

Tbh for a grand and solicitors indemnity I would just pay.

Agree with others this all sounds very fishy. For you the risk is something happening to the money and having very little recourse. For the buyer to say they don't want a solicitor involved but all you have to do as the seller is sign here here and here and we'll transfer you £100k +, honest guv. They are making it sound ever so easy for you aren't they?!

The fact that no one will represent you if the buyer does not have a solicitor means they see it as a risky transaction also - I mean how often does a lawyer turn down money. I've be heading for the hills on this one or telling them to lawyer up or no deal.

Also, not being funny at what is no doubt a difficult time, but it's not like you haven't just come into some money. The fees will come out of the transfer, if it sells for £125k you'll see £123k of it.

Interesting views...

I agree that £2k out of £125k is, percentage-wise, not a large proportion. But it's still 2 grand, and it will take, at the current state of the housetrading market, several months of stress to get solicitors and conveyancers all lined up and talking to each other (see other thread about how solicitors are lazy bastards who don't do anything without being chivvied every step of the way). When there's no mortgage on either side, all you actually have to do is prove your id, have them prove their id, sign contracts and fill in the form with the Land Registry to notify the change of hands (and transfer the money).

We have tried to look for possible risks from all angles and, simply can't see anything that isn't the buyer's risk rather than ours. Any theoretical nasty discoveries post-purchase are for the buyer to deal with - there's no way to claim after exchange and completion (that we can find). We will have the money via a CHAPS transaction carried out at the branch with my wife in attendance - they can't take that back with an PayPal dispute - before we hand anything over irrevocably. The property isn't going anywhere either - the buyer can hardly run off with it.

About the only thing not covered is if it is money-laundering... but given that the buyer is retired, literally lives next door (in a small flat in Malvern) and has done for over a decade, known to the FiL all that time, it's a very long con if he's up to something... he (and we) just want to make a simple deal and get it over with.

The question about examples is still out there - I wasn't looking for a free and exhaustive list, of course, but for anything that's actually a concrete example of a problem for a seller. Every example I have encountered has been about discovering or dealing with risks to the buyer (indemnities, searches, things like Cougar's change-of-use issue etc).

To be honest, I fear I have wasted/am wasting your collective time here - my wife is the executor and she has satisfied herself that she can handle it (she is extremely capable, to be fair). It's been discussed variously with a family friend estate agent, property purchasers at her place of work, and every time it boils down to this being the simplest possible purchase because the buyer has assumed all the risks. I don't believe I could change her mind about it at this point... I have raised every concern I could think of! In every case it seems to either be 'doesn't apply in this case' if it's specific, or it's the generalised 'better safe than sorry' response which I totally get but is not enough to convince her not to do it.

This may be the prelude to a post where I explain exactly how wrong we were, and bemoaning making the bold decision rather than the safe one... but I trust my wife to have thought everything through (she is a chartered accountant - not that it gives her any legal expertise of course, but she is unfazed by form-filling and expensive processes!). Will let you all know!

A few hundred quid for conveyancing not a couple of thousand

Any theoretical nasty discoveries post-purchase are for the buyer to deal with

Discovering that you have been dragged into a money laundering racket and losing not only the £125k but also your reputation and potentially ending up doing time would be enough to put me off. But then I am risk adverse.

Just because he's a quiet chap and retired doesn't mean anything to be fair. How many people have their neighbours down as a bad 'un? There are enough alarm bells ringing with the fact this chap wants to rush it through and wants to avoid solicitors to make me very edgy indeed.

Or you end up at the bank and suddenly the excuses start about why they cannot do a CHAPS transfer and can you take a cheque etc. Then they put lots of pressure on your wife to hurry up and make a decision, she's wasted everyone's time here, let's just get this done etc, don't you trust me, you know where I live, you'll have to put it on the market and how long with that take etc etc

But hey, it's your £125k not mine 😀

Oh and your wife is a chartered accountant and will be willingly involved in a transaction, which if described to her by a client in a professional capacity, would have enough to it to report it to her company's MLRO?..

Not a professional risk I would take...

Obvious question to me is what do the freeholders think about this- can't imagine they'd be too happy, they'll have a bit of exposure here.

I sold a flat privately, buyer wanted possession on deposit, funny as the properties I have bought I usually ask for keys on exchange so I can get started painting. So speak with solicitor and she said no way, it's a known scam. Once they 're in they 're staying there and no more money.

Roll forward to last year, I sold a flat, buyer had a draft, my bank wanted 300e to pay it in so I said a transfer is better, solicitor said no as it can be cancelled.

I hate paying professionals but they 're worth their fee.

Or you end up at the bank and suddenly the excuses start about why they cannot do a CHAPS transfer and can you take a cheque etc. Then they put lots of pressure on your wife to hurry up and make a decision, she’s wasted everyone’s time here, let’s just get this done etc, don’t you trust me, you know where I live, you’ll have to put it on the market and how long with that take etc etc

That bit at least will stop the operation - she's got some red lines and that is one of them! It's not a choice of a few hundred for conveyancers or not, it's DIY or put it on the market normally so definitely a few £k once agents and solicitors have had their way. The fact he doesn't want to involve solicitors could definitely be seen as a warning light, I agree, but it is justifiable in that he's done it before, knows what to do, and doesn't want to spend time and money if he doesn't have to... as others on this forum have done.

The possible money-laundering angle can't be entirely dismissed but honestly is that really a realistic concern? It just seems fantastical to turn down a deal which is what both people want on the remote possibility that the guy is an organised criminal who just happened to live next door all this time and needs a way to clean up a hundred grand. If it was an unknown buyer who had contacted us, sure, I'd be very suspicious, but we (rather coincidentally) managed to get hold of him while we were visiting the property, knew he was doing up another flat in the building and wondered if he would take on a second project. I feel there's being risk-averse and there's being verging-on-paranoid and this seems more the latter...

Anyway I appreciate the advice - it would possibly (probably?) be enough to sway me if it were my decision, as I am more prone to thinking of potential disasters - but as I say, I believe the decision to proceed has been made!

Is he really saying DIY conveyancing or no sale?

Thats an even bigger red flag to me. something is very off here. He wants your property but will not buy it if a professional is involved?

I'd call his bluff. If he wants it that much he will back down.

I could not run away fast enough from this .

Is this not really just a question of risk? Spending £500 - £1,000 to mitigate the risk of something going wrong with £125k.

Given high chance of something going wrong, and high impact if it does go wrong, it seems a low cost to avoid the risk.

Even if this was a viable consideration before, there seems to be so many red flags I think you would be nuts to go down that route.

The possible money-laundering angle can’t be entirely dismissed but honestly is that really a realistic concern?

It seems fantastical that someone has £125k lying around and that they are desperate to buy a property with it no questions asked and absolutely does not want solicitors involved. If someone picked up the phone to your wife at work and explained that they were doing this it would trigger just about everything on the checklist for her to report it immediately to the MLRO.

Don't forget money laundering covers a very broad range and the buyer doesn't have to be Mr Big, it could be simple tax evasion which still falls under the same umbrella. The point to bear in mind is your wife's professional accreditation could be at steak though.

As a chartered accountant she could not claim, even if people hadn't posted warnings all over internet forums about it, that she was unaware of the possibility of it being money laundering.
Similarly, if your wife's client were the sellers would she advise them to go down the DIY route? I very much doubt it!

I am not for one minute saying don't grab the opportunity for a quick sale. What I am saying is that for £3-400 you have the certainty that you will actually get your money and that it's someone else's problem if the buyer does end up being a touch dodgy.

You know the saying - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

The fact he doesn’t want to involve solicitors could definitely be seen as a warning light is the klaxon sounding and great big red lights flashing all over the building

Oh, and as a final edit - you didn't want to sell a bit of camera kit on eBay as you were worried about getting your pants pulled down by a dodgy buyer yet you will go through with this?!

It intrigues me that my purchasing legal paperwork is 4.5 pages long.

My equally legally binding Tenant Information pack now runs to 34 pages, including more than is in the purchasing pack and an upto £10k fine if I get it wrong. Yet no solicitor involved.

It seems fantastical that someone has £125k lying around and that they are desperate to buy a property with it no questions asked and absolutely does not want solicitors involved.

Why? Many can quite easily lay their hands that amount of cash and more if they wanted to.

An amicable neighbour in the same block has agreed to buy it for only a little under the given price, with a plan to significantly do it up and sell it – he and his son are already doing this with another neighbouring flat in the block, so they are very familiar with the situation.

The "buyer" is buying into a known property if they have others in same block they are probably well aware of the issues with the flat/block. I'm guessing there is lots WE don't know about the buyer, the OP can't obviously relate the feelings you get speaking to people. I know a few people who have bought properties cash without the Columbian drug cartels getting their cut

@bruneep - it is not the buying in cash that is raising eyebrows but the insistence that no lawyers are involved that is suspicious. So insistent in fact the buyer is saying to the seller 'if you use a lawyer then the deal is off'...

I have just finished studying real estate practice as part of an LPC. The textbook I have which is really only an introduction to the subject is 550 pages. Throughout, it gives many examples of what can go wrong. Having studied it, I would still pay someone else to do it. These are legal contract that can have very expensive consequences if not done right.

This bit made me giggle:

'all you actually have to do is prove your id, have them prove their id, sign contracts and fill in the form with the Land Registry to notify the change of hands (and transfer the money)'

Good luck!

and we all trust lawyers don't we. Given my dad's one ****ed up his will and cost us £000's and no comeback from practice and law society they all closed ranks and put up the shutters. I treat them all with great contempt now 🦈

@bruneep - it is fine for the buyer not to trust lawyers but to tell the seller they mustn't use one as well otherwise the deal is off is plain odd. It becomes even more suspicious when it is the buyer who is making out to the seller all they have to do is sign a few bits of paper - honest guv, you sing here, I sign there and Bob's your uncle...

If your dad's will was genuinely screwed up then you do have recourse absolutely and you can take it to the SRA and also the law firm's professional indemnity provider. If it didn't happen too long ago feel free to PM me and I will see if I can help on that front.

Does he have the money? Demonstrably? Where from? Have you means-tested him?

If he lives next door and already has a mortgage on his existing property, there is no way while I've got a hole in my arse that anyone will offer him another mortgage for an adjacent purchase.

I keep thinking about this thread and I keep concluding this:

Also, not being funny at what is no doubt a difficult time, but it’s not like you haven’t just come into some money. The fees will come out of the transfer, if it sells for £125k you’ll see £123k of it.

I just don’t get why you would take the risk.

Sounds like the OP likes the idea of some quick cash and an easy life hence the off market private sale but is being pushed by the buyer and not keen to loose out....?

Some further clarification evidently required...

Buyer has not *insisted* on no lawyers on either side, or threatened to pull out if we think of getting one... the buyer simply wants to proceed privately and, as such, conveyancers are either not interested on the selling side because they don't want to deal with private buyers, or have confirmed they are not able to take on the work on a timeframe of less than multiple months due to the current frenzy of buying and selling. At no point has he refused to buy from us if we decided we did want to lawyer up - he would just rather proceed without them. The interactions have all been on a very friendly, above-board and co-operative basis! No threats or dodgy attempts to manipulate us to make hasty decisions.

Buyer has indeed provided proof of funds (bank statements). His own mortgage is paid off already - I've already said no mortgages apply on either side. As commented above, £125k is not a suspiciously large amount of funds to have available in the circumstances.

The assertion of the actual forms required for the Land Registry - proof of ID, change of registration - are demonstrably true as the requirements to make the sale when handling your own conveyancing. House sale contracts all follow a standard wording that is readily available - including terms specifying the property is sold as seen and the buyer has no comebacks after exchange.

And re. not wanting to sell the camera stuff on eBay - that was because eBay is unarguably plagued with dodgy buyers who will rip you off and can easily get their money back via PayPal leaving you out of luck. Reversing a bank transfer via Faster Payments not so much.

As pretty much everyone has said, from different perspectives, it ultimately boils down to being willing (or not) to take the risk(s) and bypass months of time and significant expense. Yes it's only a smallish % of the overall price, but it's still significant. I've never really understood how people will strive and strain to earn or save small amounts of money here or there and then go 'ah, it's only a few grand' when dealing with house prices and the associated expenditure.

Paying for insurance (which is effectively what this is) is always a trade-off. The risks of discovering something awkward and expensive when *buying* a property are significant and we would not be happy with that level of exposure. The risks when *selling* a wholly-owned property to a cash buyer already known to us, who has shown proof of funds, are really very small indeed, and the paperwork is entirely manageable when the buyer is not requesting anything additional. So in short - in the absence of any specific clear and present risk that we can perceive or anyone has been able to inform us of, we are (or rather, she is) willing to go ahead.

in the absence of any specific clear and present risk that we can perceive or anyone has been able to inform us of

Many years ago, my boss at the time asked me to compile him a list of all the things I hadn't thought of yet. This kind of feels like a similar question.

I can't think of any. But not being able to think of any is precisely why I paid someone who might.

Here's an idea. Your reluctance to get solicitored up is down to not wanting to add months to the process. Fair enough. Can you perhaps instead simply pay a smaller fee for half an hour of their time to seek some advice?

Fair enough - the two big things you need to sort then are the TA7 and LPE1 (obtained from the freeholder or managing agent of the block). There are still risks as the seller - if you cock the paperwork up or do not hand over the right paperwork the buyer can sue you later if stuff turns up that they were not expecting. Yes the risk is lower for you but certainly not zero, particularly with a leasehold property.

Also key is the timing of signing the TR1 and the transfer of funds. Sign the TR1 and hand it to the seller before you receive the money and they essentially own the property but have not yet paid you for it. Yes contractually they have to pay you however that could involve a lengthy court dispute. Conversely will they be happy to transfer you the money before you sign and hand over the TR1? Best solution is to sort out some kind of escrow account via a err... solicitor...

As to the cost of a conveyance of this size, you're looking at £600 or so as the seller - probably less of a monetary hit than you took selling the cameras to MBP.

Anyway, genuinely wish you good luck and hope it does all just come together for you. Having bought and sold a couple of times now I can quite see the appeal of not having to deal with lawyers but it is not something I would dare take on myself even having worked at (particularly having worked at?) a conveyancing firm...

As for a specific clear and present risk - not getting £125k and being short one flat. It could actually happen. OK you think the risk is minimal because you know the chap etc but that's like me asking what the risks of driving a car are, you telling me I could crash and die and then me replying 'well that ain't happening as I am a brilliant driver'.

When we bought our house (no mortgage companies or estate agents involved) it took about 6 weeks, including us getting a proper survey done (well a standard house buyers one where the surveyor covers their bum by telling you all sorts of things that could be wrong but aren't).
Should only take a month at most. N.B. we both used small time, small town solicitors (ours is a one man band) and they seem to be more efficient as getting a couple of hundred into their account quickly is good business for them but the big firms you can just get lost in the system.
Yes it is sort of insurance but also saves hassle as all you have to do is fill out a few simple forms for the solicitor (and they tell you if you've accidentally spelt the streetname wrong or whatever) and go into their office to show ID and sign things in front of them and not have to worry about which t you have left uncrossed and whether you should have filled out addendum 3 of form fj65 or whatever it is.

Not meaning to jump on the ‘get a solicitor’ bandwagon but have you considered your/your wife’s capacity to sell a flat that doesn’t ‘belong’ to you (your wife may be the beneficiary of the estate of which the property is part, but that does not give her the right to deal with the legal estate)?

Have you gained a grant of probate, considered the appropriate contract provisions and more importantly, the provisions to be inserted into the transfer to pass the said legal title? Perhaps the appointment of a second trustee to overreach any other equitable interests? The Land Registry are very particular about such things and you may find yourself accidentally in breach of whatever contract you download from the internets.

If you want any specific advice, feel free to inbox

Some pretty good internet advice here on the various bits that form part of the leasehold pack you need to provide also. Note the caveat that as seller you *have* to disclose various bits of information whether the buyer asks for them or not. Get it wrong and you could be sued:

https://www.samconveyancing.co.uk/news/conveyancing/ta7-leasehold-information-form-explained-2532

https://www.samconveyancing.co.uk/news/conveyancing/leasehold-information-pack-3094

Note this is not advice, I am not a a lawyer, I have no affiliation with the site linked to etc etc 🙂

First off I was thinking yesterday how this thread looks like a classic "I am asking for feedback but I am going to ignore any feedback I don't like" internet hissyfit 🙂 The main reason for that is that it's not been my decision and I've been relaying the position as it changes... the decision wasn't made before creating the thread but the position solified quite rapidly thereafter...
@Cougar: I agree asking for unknown unknowns is a problem, but I do think there's an element of solicitor-led stoking of fears about the mysterious hazards in the property world... hence asking for real-life examples. Such conveyancers we have talked to have only offered the full package or not at all, unfortunately.
@dannybgoode: Re. the TA7 and LPE1 and leasehold information pack - the details are either being provided or the buyer already has them due to being an existing owner in the block - there's a checklist of supporting documents the buyer and my wife have been working through, but he already has the bulk of the information that would be in the pack.
The escrow thing is a good one, I agree - the solution again is provided by the buyer being co-operative - he has agreed to pay a deposit, get sight of the forms to view for errors etc., and will transfer the money before we hand over the final signature and keys - there's a sort of physical escrow of the keys in a coded lockbox, and the code will be provided on satisfactory confirmation of the payment.
Funnily enough the 'I won't crash' analogy came up in an argument about this whole thing between me and my wife, when I was raising the various concerns about e.g. money laundering - except in the other direction that if I was so concerned about risk, I should be forbidding her from driving up the M5 to the flat to hand it over... in that case my counter-argument was that those driving risks were known and accepted. But it's quite true that she could die driving over to the contract exchange but that risk is OK... not sure what conclusion I can draw from that!
@slowol: I agree it *should* only take a month but at present there is a logjam of house sales going on due to the stamp duty holiday - sure, the deadline was extended but there are still way more sales than usual in process. One conveyancer we tried repeatedly to get a call back from eventually emailed to say they weren't taking on any more work for the foreseeable months due to this. Another interesting piece of advice was that the actual form filling is approximately as complicated as a passport & visa application and we've successfully navigated the process for US visas in the past. In comparison to that, the solicitor who was involved with the initial process of handling the Will was so inept she hadn't noticed all sorts of errors (wrong surnames, wrong addresses, earlier version of the will had no executors - fortunately the later one did) so paying them to spot errors for us was not appealing.
@noone: Probate was granted some weeks ago (surprisingly quickly, as it happened) and my wife is executor, with the other sibling beneficiaries happily leaving it all up to her - they will not be sticking any oars in. I will inbox you though just to clarify what you mean about provisions to be inserted...

Such conveyancers we have talked to have only offered the full package or not at all

That was one of the reasons I did my own conveyancing to start with. Buying a property at auction you get a full legal pack, all the searches etc. You also have to pay for it if you win the auction. The conveyancers I spoke to still wanted to charge full whack so effectively paying for it twice. The real kick in the nuts being there was absolutely nothing of use or interest in the searches as it was just an empty building with no services.