...and I just seed that Rachel, eatin' a cheesey tater and bacon pie...
Re the OP - its a good question. A few years ago, I was in a car driving from Dehli to Agra to see the Taj Mahal (tip, go by train its much less stressful). Long and tiring journey on dangerous and busy roads. On the way back, I was increasingly concerned about the Muslim driver (although I was not conscious of his religion at the start). He was starting to fall asleep at the wheel. I asked him to pull over and take a break and I offered to buy him a meal. He declined, explaining that it was light and Ramadan. After a quick discussion, we agreed to wait til dusk - he got his meal, and we got a less stressful journey!
I really thought all religion was dead.
Why do people post nonsense ?
I'm not sure its nonsense. There does seem to have been a resurgence in the popularity of religion since I was a kid in the '80's, though I would't describe it as being dead. Not sure why this is - I've read somewhere that due to our 'survival of the fittest' style of capitalist economy where people succeed and thrive at other peoples expense (i'm no socialist by the way), that the general feeling amongst most people is one of unhappiness and pessimism so they turn to religion. I have no idea if that is true, but there has definitely been an increase in popularity in all religions over the last 20yrs or so - unfortunately.
I seed that ernie lynch eatin' the heart of a guardian reader once, and it was still beatin'.
I'm not sure its nonsense.
Of course it's nonsense. When the poster made the comment [i]"I really thought all religion was dead"[/i] he knew full well that he didn't believe that.
He would have been fully aware throughout his life that churches and mosques existed, that the Queen is the head of the Church of England, that Northern Ireland had some religious issues, that bishops sat in the House of Lords, etc, etc.
At no time did he think that all religion was dead.
A sausage is a vegetable, right?
It is if you eat 5 a day.
I'm not sure its nonsense. There does seem to have been a resurgence in the popularity of religion since I was a kid in the '80's, though I would't describe it as being dead. Not sure why this is - I've read somewhere that due to our 'survival of the fittest' style of capitalist economy where people succeed and thrive at other peoples expense (i'm no socialist by the way), that the general feeling amongst most people is one of unhappiness and pessimism so they turn to religion. I have no idea if that is true, but there has definitely been an increase in popularity in all religions over the last 20yrs or so - unfortunately
Fantastic !
All that post needed on the end was the old. FACT
there has definitely been an increase in popularity in all religions over the last 20yrs or so
Has there?
Last I looked, in the UK Christianity was on the decline, Islam was on the rise, and Atheism was also on the rise. Projecting, the dominant 'religious' demographic in this country is going to be Atheism (rah) with Islam bringing up a distant second. I've not looked at figures for a while though so this might have changed.
Maybe globally that holds true, but in the UK I doubt it.
Sorry, I've just realised that last post is hypocritical. Fasting, then?
Of course it's nonsense. When the poster made the comment "I really thought all religion was dead" he knew full well that he didn't believe that.
Nope. That appeared to be the case. Other than a vague awareness that some old people might go to church (none I knew) religion appeared to have come to an end.
You may have grown up somewhere or sometime different. The throwbacks I subsequently encountered had to come from somewhere.
So you managed to go to university but you didn't notice any churches or people wearing dog collars or the hijab, or listen to the news, etc. You "really thought all religion was dead". Yeah OK.
Can we please get back to the main point here. Now we know that sausages count as one of your 5 a day, does this include sausage rolls? Just asking because Greggs do packs of 5, and this could solve mine, and a lot of other people's nutritional lifestyle choices
Re read it. It appears to have been written by a Muslim, possibly in the US. Who needs to write it before it becomes non-presumptive?
Ya, thanks, I clocked it was written in the voice of a Muslim. It's not who that writes it that makes it twaddle, it's [i]what[/i] they write.
Maybe you should drop your bigoted prejudices and concentrate on what is written instead of who says it.
My boss is a Muslim so he's observing Ramadan.
Aside from this he loves beer - the Qur'an takes a dim view of people being intoxicated but according to who you talk to, says very little about the odd tipple.
I'm fine with this...Islam is a faith that's changing and growing. It's not as if Christianity has avoided controversy, is it?
Islam is a faith that's changing and growing.
Is it? News to me, but that's good if so. My perception of Islam is that it was one of the most set-in-the-ways religions out there. I'd be happy to see that that wasn't the case.
I seen that hora, eatin' a French Fancy in that Didsbury once.
Growing yes, changing no.
So... These sausage rolls? I've got them sat in front of me and I've not eaten for 18 hours
...and because religions of all flavours are social constructs, bound in time, they cannot possibly 'change' without abandoning the original 'sacred' texts upon which they are founded. They are then condemned to attempting ever more theological high jumps in order to cope with an ever changing world.
I seed that Pope once, eatin' a lasagne....
Of course religions change over time. It is precisely because changes have happened that schism occur.
they cannot possibly 'change' without abandoning the original 'sacred' texts upon which they are founded.
I seed that ernie, but he couldn't read very well...
Islam ain't just a religion though is it. And the spoken word ain't open to interpretation in quite the same way as e.g. the bible is. Not sure why folk lump everything into one tidy category.
Errm, no I really think it is.
crikey - Member...and because religions of all flavours are social constructs, bound in time, they cannot possibly 'change' without abandoning the original 'sacred' texts upon which they are founded.
I give you the New Testament.
Islam in some ways is quite a flexible religion. It had to be, when you think about it in product terms- it was launched into a pretty saturated market, so unlike christianity it's (supposed to be) relatively tolerant of other religions. (christians, jews and zoroastrians are all specifically identified as being bros not infidos) And the quran doesn't claim to be a complete or all-encompassing work, it's supposed to be the word of god as handed down to the prophet with relevance to a certain place and time- so you have the hadith first of all as ways of expanding on/clarifying/filling in the gaps. And then there's another thing which I forget what it's called, which is essentially "best practice"- things which islam has solidly incorporated since. And then you have ongoing patches. So lots of room for divergence, argument and new stuff.
But, the trouble is, humans on top of a pile tend to act in a way that keeps them on top- whether that's resisting change or implementing it for self interest reasons. And there's the DRM aspect of religion, which basically means that being closed in and extreme polarises your followers and strengthens your identity, so leaders often lurch towards the hardline- it's easier to lead a mob than a flock.
it's easier to lead a mob than a flock.
No way, man - sheep are far more co-operative than kangaroos.
Islam & Christianity have both been through several bouts of bouncing between enlightenment & repression.
The problem is, they're on different cycles. 🙂
Ernie, I guess those who believe that religion is dead will relish the sight of the Pope visiting Rio's favelas next week and being totally ignored! Imagine an old book dressed in white being completely and utterly ignored by all those around him. At least it will make the logistics of the trip nice and simple. It might as well be any of us taking a stroll.
Islam ain't just a religion though is it.
Is it a 'lifestyle'? 😉
wading in going 'your religion is shameful and not welcome' isn't particularly constructive. It doesn't progress the discussion, it derails it. Hence my polite request to knock it off. I can do that formally if you'd prefer? (-:
cougar - its for that reason that i suggested the islamophobia...as the fact that he's calling a religion shameful without any real foundation and moving the context of the conversation away from original discussion...it could have been seen as islamophobic...i may be wrong about him...and i hope i am...if i accused him accused him of being islamophobic then that is not what i intended but to merely suggest that his comments may be viewed as such...so i apologise for that
gonzy, do you properly gorge yourself in the evenings?
I wouldn't go to bed. Just get some fried chickan and eat and eat and eat. It's beyond me, I'm rubbish if I have to skip breakfast!
i try not to but the temptation is always there...the meal to end the fast usually consists of dates, water, and a variety of other foods such as kebabs, samosas, pakoras etc...the other night we had home made burgers...so there is no hard rule on what you should or shouldnt eat...but i'll tell you this....water never tasted so good as it does after a days fasting...again makes me appreciate what we as a society take for granted whereas there are people out there who dont even have access to clean drinking water....
in the past we've tended to overcook and have a table full of various food....you end up doing this cos you're hungry and want to eat everything....but the reality is that after a few bits you feel stuffed and a fair bit of food goes to waste...therefore i try not to gorge myself...
usually during ramadan its quite easy to lose a bit of weight but during short nights its hard to do because you eat at around 9.30pm and can continue to do so until around 2.45am...in between that you need to get some sleep and going to sleep after a heavy meal usually means you gain weight....so i tend to be careful about what i eat. the meal at 2.45am usually is pasta based or something that consists of slow release carbs that can keep me going throughout the day...i've even been getting through a fair bit of fruit too so i've been hitting my 5 a day.....to keep Binners happy i even had a couple of chicken sausages last night...
I give you the New Testament.Islam in some ways is quite a flexible religion. It had to be, when you think about it in product terms- it was launched into a pretty saturated market, so unlike christianity it's (supposed to be) relatively tolerant of other religions. (christians, jews and zoroastrians are all specifically identified as being bros not infidos) And the quran doesn't claim to be a complete or all-encompassing work, it's supposed to be the word of god as handed down to the prophet with relevance to a certain place and time- so you have the hadith first of all as ways of expanding on/clarifying/filling in the gaps. And then there's another thing which I forget what it's called, which is essentially "best practice"- things which islam has solidly incorporated since. And then you have ongoing patches. So lots of room for divergence, argument and new stuff.
northwind - the first part of that is pretty much spot on...you'll also find that the vast majority of the Quran contains more about all the other prophets (jesus, moses, abraham etc) and there is virtually no reference to mohammed at all...
the quran is the word of god handed down to mohammed by the angel gabriel and this was done over a 23 year period...the quran in its original text cannot be fully translated and is seen as a set of guidelines on all aspects of human life...it can therefore be adapted into any context and have these guidelines applied logically...but obviously you get those who distort it for their own gains
the hadiths are actually statement and recorded actions of the prophet mohammed...so basically about what he did during his lifetime and how he applied the teachings of islam onto the society he lived in...the problem is that most of these were written 2.. to 3.. years after his death and were as a result of stories passed through generations although there is a great deal of accuracy in the majority as they can be verified with other records of the time...it is widely believed that ther is a still sizeable proportion of the hadiths which are inaccurate or have been fabricated...
the hadiths are usually referred to as a terms of reference to go alongside the teachings of the quran in order to contextualize the quran...but they alongside the sharia should always be seen as secondary to the quran
gonzy - good call on the sausages. Its one of your 5 a day remember
Do you find that your fasting alters your behavior with what activities you undertake? I know we've spoken about work, But the obvious one I'm thinking about is biking.
I'm just asking as I did a big ride last Friday evening. Purely because I fancied getting out. It was roasting hot, and I emptied a 2.5 litre camelbak before I got home. So the idea of doing something that strenuous without that liquid, before you even get to whole food thing (as you've probably gathered - I don't slack on that front) would be inconceivable.
But I suppose it would be logical that if you're meant to be sacrificing something (which I personally think is something we could probably all do with from time to time), then your biking and suchlike would be considered a sacrifice too. Is that the correct gist?
in the past we've tended to overcook and have a table full of various food....you end up doing this cos you're hungry and want to eat everything....but the reality is that after a few bits you feel stuffed and a fair bit of food goes to waste
Where might that be, and at what time? 😀
Gots Bhajis? I ****ing LOVE Bhajis.
Binners - i only managed 2 sausages...sorry i have failed you!! 😉
regarding biking while fasting....any sport can be done within reason...obviously with biking there is a need for fluid intake especially in this heat...but usually if i'm going to be riding during Ramadan i try to plan it more carefully so i will think more about what i eat in the days leading up to the ride...so i try to do all the carbo loading and eat as much slow release energy foods as possible and try to get as much fluid in before i start fasting..when i'm on the bike as i have no water to drink i still have to be careful about my performance as i cant go at it 100% so i may ride at say 50% so that way i'm not overexerting myself...does that make sense?
when i was younger i was a lot fitter so i would easily function as normal...i remember when i was about 15, during Ramadan i had a school football match on a Saturday morning...this was then followed up by a game for a Saturday league side i played for...the days fast ended quite late so after all of this a couple of my mates decided we'd have another game of football in the early evening against a rival group of lads....this was a usual occurrence and i never felt any worse at the end of it and my performance during it never changed because it was Ramadan...but could i do something like that today....no effing way!!...my body isn't what it was back then and my mindset is a bit different (back then i had a bleep test score of 14.7...now i would struggle to get to 10 without dying at least twice)
with regards to the sacrifice bit...i think nowadays i have to sacrifice a lot more as a bike ride during Ramadan, although it can be done, would leave me taking longer to recover from...this would have a knock on effect elsewhere such as at work so i have to think about that so where i may have gone out every couple of days in the past, during Ramadan i would maybe decide to ride once a week or once a fortnight..so in effect the riding isn't sacrificed per say but more compromised...
i've got karate tonight...i'll be going but again i'll just have to take it a bit easy and not give it the full beans...otherwise i'll be shattered tomorrow...but like i said...we try to lead as normal a daily routine as possible during Ramadan...makes the food more fulfilling at the end of the day
gonzy - Memberit is widely believed that ther is a still sizeable proportion of the hadiths which are inaccurate or have been fabricated...
Yep, tbh it'd be uncanny if they weren't. I heard it from a man who heard it from a man who heard it from the son of a companion... We know how well that works today.
What's the other thing, sunna? Observations rather than teachings...
wrecker - i've been told we're having pasta tonight which a good thing as i'll need all the energy i can get after tonight's karate session... 😆
i know some mosques and muslim communities usually use ramadan to reach out to the wider community...they do this by organising an iftar event which is open to people of all religions...it allows them to interact with muslims who are fasting so they may learn about the concept behind ramadan and at the end of the session, when its time for the fast to be ended...the big feed is put on for all the guests..
Pasta? Pah. Nothing fuels like spicy, deep fried goodness.
the big feed is put on for all the guests..
Is it free? They gots Bhajis?
My perception of Islam is that it was one of the most set-in-the-ways religions out there.
That's because the more conservative a group is, the more upset it is about change, so the more noise it makes. Progressive Islam doesn't make the news, ever. See Turkey.
Islam also provides their deep set values.
Attack their religion then it's a personal attack on any Muslim.
I felt sorry for a coworker while I ate and he struggled with work/dehydration.
His choice.
kind of correct northwind
Sunnah is the way of life prescribed as normative for Muslims on the basis of the teachings and practices of the prophet Mohammed and interpretations of the Quran. Sunnah denotes the practices of the prophet Mohammed that he taught and practically instituted as a teacher of the shariah and its best practices. The sunnah of the prophet Mohammed includes his specific words, habits, practices, and silent approvals: it is significant because it addresses ways of life dealing with friends, family and government etc.
The term hadith refers to reports of statements or actions of the prophet Mohammed, or of his tacit approval or criticism of something said or done in his presence. The intended meaning of hadith in religious tradition is something attributed to the prophet Mohammed but that is not found in the Quran.
Scholars often considered sunnah equivalent to the biography of the prophet Mohammed as the hadith which was then poorly validated while contemporary accounts of the prophet’s life were better known. As the hadith came to be better documented and validated, the sunnah came often to be known mostly through the hadith, especially as variant or fictional biographies of Muhammad spread.
Is it free? They gots Bhajis?
course it's free and they got more than just bhaji's ...now go find a local mosque to inquire at...if they dont do it suggest that they do so non muslims can gain more insight into ramadan
Attack their religion then it's a personal attack on any Muslim.I felt sorry for a coworker while I ate and he struggled with work/dehydration.
the faith of a muslim can be quite emotive and i think that's down to the quran and its teachings which if applied correctly, are ingrained into every aspect of life...the trouble is that the original text is hard to interpret to the extent that you fully understand what it says but translated into modern arabic is as close as it can get and the teachings are suggestions and guidelines that can be interpreted and applied into a modern context
its been a long time since i read the quran and i feel bad that i havent read it for so long but i've always wanted to gain a clearer understanding of the arabic language so i can understand what i am reading...i know there are translated versions available but you have to be careful as some of the translations are not as clear and not always accurate...my father memorised the quran and could recite any part of it off by heart...i wish i had spent a more attentive student to him when i was younger...
as for feeling bad eating in front of someone who is fasting...dont be...you should never have to feel that way...like you said they have made that conscious choice to fast and have to accept there will be people who will be eating in their presence and they have to accept that and be prepared to deal with it...
it could have been seen as islamophobic...i may be wrong about him...and i hope i am...if i accused him accused him of being islamophobic then that is not what i intended but to merely suggest that his comments may be viewed as such...so i apologise for that
It [i]could[/i] be seen like that, but that's not what it was. Hence, that's what my post was trying to qualify. No apology needed, for me at any rate.
I spent 2 weeks in Jeddah last August and non-muslims aren't allowed to eat, drink or smoke in public during Ramadan. My colleagues in London who are fasting have it much tougher as the office smells of cooked food at the moment so it must be difficult not to feel hungry!
In Jeddah I made the mistake of carrying a bottle of water and a cereal bar to the toilet to take medicine...I had to hide it in a bag.
Progressive Islam doesn't make the news, ever. See Turkey.
That's true. Turkey hasn't been in the news at all this year.
Doesn't the exception for sick people cover you in those circumstances?
I didn't ask, but it's probably best to not make a meal of it anyway.
The office had cordoned off the canteen so we could go eat snacks etc there.
Doesn't the exception for sick people cover you in those circumstances?
certain groups can be exempt from fasting...the elderly if they are physically unable to do so, the sick also if they are unable to do so or doing so would put their health at further risk, pregnant women, mothers who are breastfeeding, women who are going through menstruation and those who are mentally ill...
however they are required to make up for these lost days at a later time...and there is usually no recommended time to do them so these could be done during the winter months when the days are shorter...obviously there are those who will never be able to fast due to their physical or mental health and it is recommended that they commit to acts of charity instead to make up for this so usually this involves giving greater amounts to charity or carrying out acts of charity such as feeding the poor...
the travelling issue has to be looked at differently...if its placed in its original context where people would cover great distances on foot/camel/horse then it would be reasonable to assume that it would be more difficult for them to fast...but in a modern context travel to anywhere on the planet can be done with relative ease and within an acceptable timescale with adequate food/water provision so this should not be an excuse for not fasting....
gonzy - Member... the faith of a muslim can be [b]quite emotive[/b] ...
An understatement really. 🙄
My question is why so emotive? 😯
If it doesn't make you feel strongly, what sort of a second-rate religion would it be? Faith goes to the heart and soul, it's not something you do, it's something you are.
second-rate religion
Are there different tiers?
you bet there is, you seen that palace the Pope lives in?
My question is why so emotive?
i think northwind has hit the nail on the head...
aith goes to the heart and soul, it's not something you do, it's something you are.
wrecker - if you still fancy a bhaji or two....check out the Big Iftar events on the following link...
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/big-iftar/
that goes for anyone else who is interested...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23480707
Oops, looks like someone forgot to tell 3million that "religion was dead"!!!
The Met estimated the crowd at 650.
Thanks gonzy but I'm in Belfast at the moment. I haven't seen a mosque here. Or even a Muslim as far as I can tell.
If I was at home, I'd be popping in for some scran for sure.
teamhurtmore - MemberOops, looks like someone forgot to tell 3million that "religion was dead"!!!
To put that into perspective, one and a half million people turned up to see Queen in Rio. They do things bigger in Brazil.
thanks for those posts gonzy. i find islam very interesting, and its always good to hear more about it.
im not religious but have had such great welcomes and been shown such generosity from muslims while wandering around in north africa so its always great to know more
happy ramadan
And 3.5 million showed up to see Rod Stewart...
I find Sufism intriguing. I find religion as a whole controlling though.
There is only one constant, Mother Nature. No Prophets with iffy lives, a story told by others. Just savage beauty and present.
hora - Member
There is only one constant, Mother Nature.
New-age Gaiaist hippy!
happy ramadan
thanks jonah... 😀
I find Sufism intriguing.
so do the vast majority of muslims... 😉
if anyone has a spare couple of hours i strongly recommend watching the channel 4 documentary on the quran...it was aired a while ago then was aired again last month...its a very interesting documentary and gives you a clearer insight into the religion as a whole....you can catch it on youtube using the following link
ramadan finished last wednesday night leading to Eid celebrations on Thursday.
proof that fasting helps you lose weight is true in my case...i weighed 11st 4lb at the start and last nights readings said 10st dead on....i still have a podgy belly though... 😆
ideally i would like to be 10st 7lb so i guess i'll be hitting the weights now to add the extra mass back on...