I think your maths are off. A decade ago I was shocked to find that the CD player was obsolete. Two decades, maybe.
There's still a CD player in our 2017 Ford Kuga.
A major factor in my last car purchase (2019) was having physical buttons and controls for important stuff.
I ended up with a skoda octavia estate. Peak STW without realising it seems. Anyway, got proper buttons for the climate control, can navigate dashboard stuff with the roller/clicky things. Basically ideal when paired with apple carplay for navigation & music.
Well, until carplay rolled out an absolutely idiotic change. One used to be able to tap an area which covered about a quarter of the screen to switch between voice gudance, alerts or STFU mode. Not any more, you have to tap a tiny icon on the left side of the screen and then tap another tiny icon which looks like the other two tiny icons to select what audio prompts you want.
Who the fk thought that was a sensible change? Idiots.
Yeah, it's likely more and more manufacturers are going to switch to subscription services and you can't really do that outside of a touchscreen interface. I agree though certain controls should be physical buttons/switches, they also need to improve voice recognition for controls
There is no CD player in my 2021 Hyundai and I didn't realise until you lot mentioned it just now.
CDs in cars were an absolute faff.
Best car for usability I've had was my 2006 Prius. It had loads of steering wheel buttons that you could do most stuff with - radio, climate etc. Intimidating at first, but then I realised each one (or pair) was a different 3D shape and you soon learned where they were and you could feel them with your thumb and operate them purely by touch. A brilliant idea.
But is it not just a case that we are generally all middle aged men who have been driving used to the old school push buttons for 30 years or so?
No. I'm very much a technophile, but I'm also in favour of good design. Hyundai replaced the knobs that stuck out of the dash for the temperature with flush touch buttons in the later model of the car, along with a large battery upgrade. With the knob, you grabbed it and twisted it. The touch buttons for up and down temperature are small, and you have to press repeatedly, so you have to look at your fingers and take your eyes off the road.
I’ve had touch screens in every car I’ve had for the last 14 years. Three Jaguars, two Mercedes and now Tesla.
I can’t say I’ve ever found the tasks listed in that article any more difficult than in the non-touchscreen cars I had prior to these (mostly Fords) and I suspect if you stick me in that old Volvo that won the test now, I’d struggle to do those tasks easily without looking at the millions of buttons to figure out what they do.
Which leads me to my point, people seem to expect to jump into a new unfamiliar car and be able to do all this stuff whilst on the move. Whereas if you take time to learn the interfaces, they’re all pretty straight-forward.
I also think a lot of people base their experiences of car touchscreens on the ones in cheaper cars. Which are uniformly shit. The ones in more expensive cars are extremely responsive and very easy to use.
CDs in cars were an absolute faff.
Not compared to tapes that constantly jammed! 🙂
You don't see hundreds of yards of cassette tape fluttering from a hedgerow anymore. Gone the same way as hedge grumble.
Which leads me to my point, people seem to expect to jump into a new unfamiliar car and be able to do all this stuff whilst on the move. Whereas if you take time to learn the interfaces, they’re all pretty straight-forward.
You quoted some high end cars there. Mercedes have obviously put a lot of thought into their UI in my car, I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise in a more recent model. Are you talking about the touchpad by your left hand, or an actual touch screen?
The major issue isn't that they are touch it's that you have to look where your fingers go. A well designed large touch screen with big icons, not so bad. But small touch buttons low down on a dash, or tiny icons with tiny text on a touch screen, these are really bad ideas it's nothing to do with not being used to it. I know the 'stop guidance' button is second from left on the bottom of my satnav screen but I cannot reliably hit it without having to look at and focus on it first. With physical buttons, once you've learned where they are you can operate without looking.
Its an interesting debate - coming at it from a different angle - at work we design and build complex refrigeration and cooling systems from Naval Ships and submarines. We can control the whole plant from a single touch screen, with a couple of knobs/switches for safety related stuff (like E-stops)
The PLC/Comms cards and HMI are endlessly configurable, modifiable, etc.
Want to add a new function? a tweak to the software and another input to the comms card and you're away...
Need a software upgrade - we can just send a file via email or on a USB stick.
Car designers can use 1 HMI screen and associated controllers to run the whole car, and the same base HMI can easily accommodate different specs/upgrades..
This has massively reduced part-count and made manufacturing and assembly simpler.
I totally agree with the point of this thread though - it appears they've gone a bit far burying the heating controls behind multiple screens/menus and i think we'll see some changes in the medium term when everyone realises this is a bit dumb.
I made the effort to learn how to use the infotainment system when I got the car three years ago. Now I ignore it, if I want sat nav I use the phone.
As for the buttons, there are still some I have to pull over, stop, find my glasses, find a torch before I can use them at night. I think I've opened the charge socket hatch 1/3 times I've adjusted the headlight level.
it occured to me the other day that I’d you took all the unnecessary crap out of a modern electrical vehicle could you get improved range?
Adding full electric control to seats generally adds about 35 kilos over the hand operated ones, if you add heating/cooling and massage it's around 45. Give or take.
TBH if you took out all the "luxury/lazy" features in something like a mid/high spec Audi, you'd save about 200 kilos. Take out the slightly useful stuff that we used to manage without, like heated seats and steering wheels, Automatic boot openers, electric tow bar release, cameras, forward looking radar, parking sensors, etc etc, you could save another 80-100 easily. Though, electric cars have a _lot_ less mass of acoustic matting in them. It's only road/tyre/wind noise, rather than engine, transmission and exhaust as well. The actual system power needs are almost the same. But the weight save is massive.
Removing buttons and adding a screen is under a kilo change for a fully CAN controlled car, sometimes the screen is heavier. It only changes the interface.
i think we’ll see some changes in the medium term when everyone realises this is a bit dumb.
Already seeing it on some cars. Reserved spaces for certain controls and fixed brightness, adding buttons back onto steering wheels and screen surrounds.
Deleting stuff that isn't actually needed, context and scenario based menus as well, so less/no scrolling/searching needed.
That's essentially one of the main tracks of my current job.
CDs in cars were an absolute faff
Nah, my Renault Mégane from bitd had a 6! cd changer in the boot. Luxury stuff indeed and if a journey was longer than 6 cds worth of music, then it was too long. Peak tech 🙂
Now I have to pull in somewhere, rummage through my cd wallet and manually change it.
Anyway, I'm in camp luddite and can do without screens in cars if possible.
I'm praying that self driving cars are legal, safe and the norm before my kids reach driving age. Reading this I hope it's much sooner!
Adding full electric control to seats generally adds about 35 kilos over the hand operated ones, if you add heating/cooling and massage it’s around 45. Give or take.
That feels high, given that conventional seats seem to weigh very little?
Having said that the removable seats from my previous C-max weighed an absolute ton, whereas I've taken the front seat out of a couple of other cars and they seemed to weigh an awful lot less. So maybe it varies depending on how structural the seats need to be (rear seats with seatbelt mounts built in, Vs front ones with the mounts on the B-pillar and floor).
@mert how much cost does it save not designing and manufacturing physical knobs and switches?
or people who need reading glasses for screens and not for distance?
Well, since you need to be able to read the speedometer on any car I don't think that's a valid excuse. But if you can't see the instrument cluster without glasses then maybe that accounts for the number of people driving around with fog lights on / sidelights / bulbs out / flat tyres / faulty engines etc.
It is possible to get horribly sucked into the menus on a Tesla. Things are scattered all over the place and often duplicated. I'm also astonished that it's possible to open and use the web browser while in motion (although it does disable video streaming in a small nod to not killing other people around you).
Ultimately it's not a car thing, it's a driver thing. Late evening on the motorways it's jaw-dropping the number of people driving vans with videos playing on their phones. Probably cars too, but vans are easier to spot. This is an easy fix, though - not difficult at all to detect if phone is in a holder from unchanging angle, and inhibit everything but car mode.
Even where there are physical buttons, they aren't always logical. In my Focus, if you're using radio, the >> button jumps to the next preset, which is fine. In my VW Up, it retunes to the next DAB station, which is useless.
Having said that the removable seats from my previous C-max weighed an absolute ton,
I thinks that's because removable seats have to weigh more for the same structural integrity as a rigidly mounted one.
Oh god yes, one of the reasons I got a BMW was that it still has tactile buttons for heating, radio and then a round controller/button thing for most other functions. Got to say that the interface to all of the gizmo's is pretty good.
Given the notes above I might need to hang onto this one for a while...
I love the fact our 12 y/o Volvo and 15 y/o van have sod all in the way of screens. Had some new Citroen as a courtesy car a while back and couldnt figure out how the change anything once you were on the move.
It is illegal to operate a phone whilst driving,
Isn't it just illegal to use a handheld phone? So you can put it in a mount on the dashboard and use it like a touchscreen and it's not explicitly illegal (driving without due care and attention may still apply).
Nah, my Renault Mégane from bitd had a 6! cd changer in the boot. Luxury stuff indeed and if a journey was longer than 6 cds worth of music, then it was too long. Peak tech 🙂
Mine had it under the passenger seat in the front, so that you could change it on the move. Or at least I think that was the idea.
We have two cars with loads of buttons / touch screen but MrsG complains about the 2019 Lotus which has precisely 4 buttons stop/start, sport, light, fogs, and 2 climate dials. They buttons are undoubtedly distracting. I find it lovely not to have any buttons / touchscreens to use.
But is it not just a case that we are generally all middle aged men who have been driving used to the old school push buttons for 30 years or so?
My 17, 19 and 21 year old sons agree with me - buttons in many cases are just better.
one of the reasons I got a BMW was that it still has tactile buttons
And the MINI that i bought to replace my old Beamer still has the same. I can control the radio/spotify/podcasts from either the screen or buttons of the steering wheel, and the heating controls are still separate buttons. Pefect
That feels high, given that conventional seats seem to weigh very little?
I guess it depends how much electrics your seat has.
The ones i last looked at had 7 controllable features (they're actually the ones in my current car).
Each control is strong enough to deal with someone of around 130-140 kilos, so all the gears and actuators aren't exactly light, and they need to be much more firmly anchored. (People tend to unload seats when they manually adjust, not so with electrics)
So, yeah, not light. (I'm not a seat designer).
I thinks that’s because removable seats have to weigh more for the same structural integrity as a rigidly mounted one.
Yes, the floor forms part of the seat structure in a "fixed" seat, with a removable seat, the structure has to be self supporting, as the latch locations are only there for location and to hold in place. I remember that from my last job. We had to either make the third row seats permanently fixed and reinforce the floor, much much heavier so they were structurally sound, which then required reinforcing the floor (but not so much) or get rid of them altogether. The joys of trying to bring an ancient platform into the 21st century.
how much cost does it save not designing and manufacturing physical knobs and switches?
Depends, 99% of them are off the shelf so the actual switchgear costs naff all to design or install, big touchscreens that meet automotive standards aren't cheap either.
Designing the switch covers is also fairly well understood, only gets difficult when you have complex shapes with curves etc.
TBH, i very much doubt there is a huge difference between the "as installed" hardware on either front.
What costs the money is the development, creating code and testing it etc But you have to do that for both. Just in different places.
The biggest benefit, as someone up there mentioned, is if we want to add feature, it's easy with a screen.
And it's not going to be long before there is legislation telling us to add safety features to existing models rolling down the production line, rather than waiting for a new model launch/facelift.
(Or even adding legally mandated feature to existing customer cars, which is a whole new kettle of festering shit)
at work we design and build complex refrigeration and cooling systems from Naval Ships and submarines.
For your application, it sounds perfect. The difference is though, you're unlikely to hit a tree in the middle of the Atlantic if you're not looking forward for ten seconds.
The biggest benefit, as someone up there mentioned, is if we want to add feature, it’s easy with a screen.
I'd say the biggest benefit is that it makes prospective new customers go "ooh!" when they switch it on.
Are feature updates actually a thing in cars? I've downloaded plenty of updates over the years but they've either been this year's map or a firmware upgrade which does nothing tangible (likely bugfixes I assume).
The difference is though, you’re unlikely to hit a tree in the middle of the Atlantic if you’re not looking forward for ten seconds.
When in more busy waterways you can hit another ship though. Touchscreen controls were partly due for a collision between U.S.S. John S. McCain and a tanker.
Something the car manufacturers should consider is the review boards response ‘just because you can doesn’t mean you should’.
They decided to replace the key controls with old fashioned versions.
Are feature updates actually a thing in cars?
Yes. It's going to get more common with all the subscription services and android/apple integration.
So I moved from a V70 to a V90 a while back. The V90 is the better car but it would be improved with buttons. Touch screens are not as good as buttons, I concur with the OP. Also, the voice control isn't good enough to change my opinion. The car is less safe because of the touch screen! They're Volvos FFS!
Are feature updates actually a thing in cars?
I updated ours, it improved it a bit.
Also, the voice control isn’t good enough to change my opinion.
Our Hyundai reckons it can understand what you want, but it obviously doesn't so stuff like navigation is fraught. The one in the Merc tells you on screen the things it is expecting you to say, which is a brilliant thing because you say the right thing. You can also train it with your voice, which helps and implies the processing is done locally not sent to a server like Alexa/Google etc
I utterly detest touch screens in vehicles. I've not used many, but those I have haven't worked properly.
The Ford sync3? In a couple of the work vans, troublesome things. No physical off button, so as a passenger I was unable to 'turn it off and on again' when it refused to play any music whatsoever.
I had a Caddy for a bit with an allegedly expensive touch screen navigation/stereo thing. It had a habit of playing the last track you listened to full volume each time you started it. Unless you remembered to switch it off.
I cut the knuckles on my left fist trying to punch it through the dash at 5am one morning.
I dread to think what it's like to have more important controls on a touch screen.
If we’re talking terrible man-machine interfaces, let me give you the Boeing 787.
Imagine clicking those tiny buttons with a trackpad fresh from the 1990s. Bump the trackpad in turbulence and your mouse pointer can escape to any of 4 screens and you then have to hunt it down and rescue it.
Even worse, this interface was apparently designed for touch but never certified, so you can’t even jab at it with your finger.
Well, my wife bitterly complains about the Hyundai every time we get in (which is a shame because it's a good drive and extremely economical) but the infotainment has never crapped out or gone wrong in any way, and it's perfectly responsive.
You can turn off the radio in the Merc with a nice big easy to access off button right in the middle of the dash. But stupidly, it turns off the entire infotainment system, so the screen and satnav go off and even the bluetooth phone system. I'd happily drive about without it but when someone rings you it's a bit awkward. So if you don't want radio you just have to mute it (unless you know no-one's going to call you).
Buttons? Retro.
@chipps had something to say about deep Tesla menus a while back. Can’t say it’s a problem on either of ours. Changes a while back meant that the demist and defrost buttons could be put in the main screen. Though it’s rare to need them in the car since it’s defrosted by the time I get to it.
As for other functions while driving many seem fairly voice controlled.
‘My Butt is cold’ - seat heaters come on.
‘I’m cold/hot’ aircon temperature changes accordingly.
‘Play …’ whatever plays or at least pops up on the huge screen to be tapped.
‘Go to …’ is something to do before setting off.
Maybe turning on the fog lamps? But that’s rare and I suspect is a voice command I’ve not attempted yet.
Haven’t missed the bizarre array of buttons with weird symbols MB supplied in cars for years now.
I really don’t how most people cope with all the new tech in cars when they can’t even operate the indicator switch.
BMW’s require you to pay for the indicators as an upgrade, same as heated seats, Apple CarPlay, and a bunch of other ‘subscription services’.
Same issue with the Ford Sync3 system. It starts up Android Auto automatically and selects Spotify as the audio source when the phone is plugged in. If you want to listen to the radio you have to press the speaker settings button and then navigate out of that into the audio source screen and then into the radio screen…
In principle Sync3 is a decent enough system but it’s like phone integration was completely forgotten about and they just shoehorned it in at the last minute.
I’ve got a 2019 Ford, and if I’ve been playing music on my phone, and the phone has been previously selected as the source, then it’ll just start playing the last piece of music I was listening to on the phone. If I’d been listening to the radio, it has that on start-up. If I want to change, I tap the home button, tap source, then select the appropriate option, before I set off. I never use my car’s satnav, because I have TomTom on my phone, which is also a pre-installed app in CarPlay, so I set my route on the phone, start the car, plug the phone in and TomTom starts up automatically and gives me directions before I’ve even left my drive.
It can throw a wobbly and just not want to play, but that’s pretty rare.
I’ve ranted about this subject for the last six or seven years, motor manufacturers and their designers seem to be almost pathologically opposed to designing vehicles with proper ergonomics, and relying more and more on touchscreens, despite practically every country in the world banning the use of touchscreen devices like mobile phones.
How can they be so wilfully blind to the dangers of such technology when it’s illegal to use it on a handheld device?
Then there’s the issue of reliability - if the entire car relies on a screen or screens making up the whole dashboard, what happens if it fails in use? It happens, I’ve seen it happen, and the consequences of it happening at night, on a motorway or even ordinary roads, could be very serious indeed; your entire dashboard, with all the essential information you need to drive the car goes black.
As I’ve said before, with six years of driving hundreds of different cars, I got to try before buying, cars like the Citroen C4 Grand Picasso, while a nice drive, was out because of the stupid decision to put all of the important information right in the centre of the dash!
I chose my Ford because it has proper knobs to control the radio volume and heat and fan, I can reach out and operate by touch, with a large graphic on the infotainment screen to show the result that I can see out of the corner of my eye.
Apparently, VAG have realised that their infotainment systems across their entire range is a disaster, and they’re going to change it - stable/door/horse, anyone?
I’m not, by any means an expert in ergonomics, but for the love of god, with the money these companies have available, surely it should be an obvious priority to get ordinary people to test run the systems and technologies before they ever get installed in the vehicles; the fact that Peugeot have chosen a hexagonal steering wheel the top of which completely obscures the digital speed display should never have happened; “ I’m sorry officer, I didn’t know what speed I was driving at, because the steering wheel covers the speedometer up” isn’t likely to float in a court of law!
Rant over. 😖
a hexagonal steering wheel the top of which completely obscures the digital speed display
Whilst I broadly agree with your rant,
Can you not adjust the seat or wheel height? I think the last car I drove that didn't have an adjustable steering column was a 1985 plate.
A bit more for a rainy, windy morning...
Android Automotive (no, it isn't Android Auto) is going mainstream. Your new car will be an Android device with CPU-specs that some might find surprising. It does support Car Play
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/android-automotive-goes-mainstream-a-review-of-gms-new-infotainment-system/
And while I'm on the subject, Android Auto is getting an update
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/googles-split-screen-android-auto-revamp-is-rolling-out-now/
The problem is it makes a lot of sense to the manufacturers, and the car industry is so important to our economies, who is actually going to regulate against it?
I suspect at best there'll be soft regulation and hope that self driving cars come sooner rather than later. And there's no guarantee self driving cars will come any time this century - we also have to remember we thought they'd be flying by now.
The lack of buttons is one of the major things that put me off a Tesla.
My 2015 Audi was controlled via a wheel and two buttons like a mouse. The wheel was on the centre console. I really liked it, easy to find, easy to use. Just got a Kia Sportage which is brilliant but does have a full,12 inch touch screen. It even has a few hard buttons you can set favourites to, it's just the list of things you can set it to are limited.
My wife has a Mk7 Golf. The infotainment system seems pretty intuitive and all the important controls, IE climate, are buttons and dials, which makes life easy when driving. I, however, have a Peugeot 308. It is awful. The screen has a lag, the sat nav doesn't search by postcode, only road name or degrees-minutes-seconds and you have to set the Country if you are heading to Scotland or Wales. It freezes when I plug my android phone in. It is hateful and I'm looking for a Golf to replace it with (if prices weren't so silly). You cannot drive the phone through the system as it lacks android auto. It's just rubbish.
All I want is the climate controls to be buttons and dials and the sat nav to be intuitive. I tend to listen to Radio 4, 5 and 6 and Apple Music. That's it. Hopefully the car companies wise up, but I doubt it will happen any time soon.
CDs in cars were an absolute faff.
The 6 disc Sony head unit in my Mondeo says otherwise. I love that interface and the Convers system is easy to use (barring voice which is utter pants).
Can you not adjust the seat or wheel height?
Fine unless the actual optimal, comfortable height is what blocks the speedo.
