I think location is a bit less of a thing now. I've been remote for ages, and I've been talking to a fair number of recruiters/companies recently. Only one got sniffy about "London salaries".
I’m Manchester based but it’s a uk-wide initiative. Mostly Javascript (react/angular/vue) web dev, data engineering, and ops/cloud infrastructure.
Yeah, I'd say your salaries are a fair bit under the mark.
Thanks GrahamS.
@dazh Yeah. Even where I live (east Dorset) the salary for a senior developer ranges from 45k to 80k depending on technology. I'm right as the bottom end but without the 4 day week of Graham.
I will also say that the job market doesn't seem bad at the moment for developers so hoping to grab a "bargain" because of the pandemic is unlikely.
Yeah for that popular spa stuff the market is really strong. No chance of a senior at £40k especially in Manchester.
I wouldn't expect to attract much talent with those salaries. at 40k for our fresh-out-of-uni-grads (south east, not london, but grads are more likely to travel anywhere), we certainly don't get the absolute pick of the bunch - I think a lot of them are motivated by trying to get into one of the big names (amazon google etc) rather than pure salary anyway
We've been recruiting for SaaS recently and the market is very tight (mainly as people aren't moving in CV-19 and there is a huge boom in eCommerce platforms). The result of which is salaries are high for anyone with eCommerce platform experience. Demand exceeds supply, so good time to get a decent pay rise.
I think a lot of them are motivated by trying to get into one of the big names (amazon google etc) rather than pure salary anyway
One of chaps had a Google T-shirt saying 'I went for a job at Google and all I got was this T-shirt'.
I think footflaps has hit on something. What the job actually is has a big effect on how much you enjoy it, it's not just money.
Solving a cool problem and doing something exciting and new is better than slogging away on some boring telco behemoth. It's also much better for your career. Something for the OP to bear in mind perhaps.
Location is becoming less important for large companies hiring a lot of devs which then has a knock on impact on smaller companies in cities/towns outside London who used to rely on attracting folk on lower salaries with the benefit of lower cost of living.
I work for a large company as an architect, not a dev, but the hiring process was open to remote workers if we were struggling to find someone with the right skills close to an office (most large UK cities), however now location is not really a consideration as long as the person is legally allowed to work in the UK and has a stable broadband connection. I had a new boss start 7 months ago and no-one in the team has met him in person yet.
@dazh - In your location, with those skills, you're competing against companies willing to pay 2-3 times that for a senior dev.
Just to add, that as @footflaps has said, money isn't everything and I would much rather have a great work/life balance and enjoy the work I do rather than have a job I hate and be a slave to a higher wage. If you're going to work for a lower than industry average salary there should be a good reason.
Does anyone have any advice on what languages/stack would be best to learn for a good all-round kind of knowledge? I'm a test analyst/QA engineer at the moment and I'm pretty interested into getting into either automation or regular dev work. I've been learning python slowly but surely over the last few months but is there anything else I should be focusing on as well?
What do you want to do? Front end web? Embedded? "Data science", mobile? If you really don't know Python + C# or Java will will give you a wide background.
Trouble is they want to pay senior devs 40-45k, mid level devs 30-35k and grads/juniors 25-30k, which in my opinion is a lot short of what the market is demanding. Am I right or wrong?
What kind of responsibility does that senior dev have? Are we talking company wide strategic decisions type senior, or 'someone who's been around for 10 years', or something in between?
It sounds proper lowball, either way.
I'm a Senior dev (tech lead; 20+ years exeprience) - If I was switching from my current role; I'd be looking for 90k or more. I'm based in Leeds; 40-45k is frankly ridiculous for a genuine senior dev.
Well one thing I've learnt from this thread is I am more seriously underpaid than I had previously realised 😳
Depends on your skill list I guess. Safety critical is undervalued a bit compared to fashionable stuff. Generally companies do have good packages though. However you do sound slightly under industry average for your experience.
PS we're hiring and do a 4-1/2 day week...
Well one thing I’ve learnt from this thread is I am more seriously underpaid than I had previously realised 😳
Me too!
I look around for similar jobs, they are similar salaries though.
For people who are recruiting, what are you look for? Any job ads?
In your location, with those skills, you’re competing against companies willing to pay 2-3 times that for a senior dev.
3x would probably be on the high side, imo. There's a *few* places who'd go that high for a principal / architect / whatever - but I think 2x is nearer the mark for senior level.
Well one thing I’ve learnt from this thread is I am more seriously underpaid than I had previously realised 😳
If it's any consolation I'm at a not too dissimilar level to you; I work with industrial automation control systems for a small manufacturer, and when I last changed jobs a few years ago I noticed there was a definite split between higher paid jobs that I wasn't interested in and lower paid jobs that I was! For me the software development is almost a means to an end, that of getting to play with huge bits of equipment. I previously did similar things in the defence industry, and pay rates were similar there. While switching jobs there were much better paid roles in other fields like web technologies, finance and whatnot but it doesn't interest me at all.
Our tools aren't particular up to date, our methods are probably positively ancient and I had never even heard of SOUP testing until now but I love the variety, there's always the frisson of excitement of the risk of crashing a robot through a wall and it's a cheap part of the country to live so I'm happy with it.
I've done done industrial automation too and ironically it was my best payed job, but only via overtime and travel. Agreed the industry is 15 years+ behind the rest of software and trying to push modern approaches fall on deaf ears.
While switching jobs there were much better paid roles in other fields like web technologies, finance and whatnot but it doesn’t interest me at all.
Yeah I made that call early in my career when I was up in Aberdeen working on oil rig software: The first DotCom bubble was inflating and former coworker tried to headhunt me for some job in London paying absurd amounts. I didn't fancy the work and really didn't want to live in London.
Career has continued much like that: turned down opportunities that paid better, but I didn't fancy (i.e. defence work), took a 18 month sabbatical in Australia/NZ, and generally followed my wife around the UK for her job to the detriment of my own prospects.
Basically I'm just not a career-driven person. And I think I'm okay with that.
it was my best payed job, but only via overtime and travel.
When I worked in defence I had some amazing holidays work trips to places like Sydney and Cape Town, and with a generous overseas allowance for doing so there was nothing not to like!
Salary discussion is a bit meaningless when no 2 organisations agree what a 'senior dev' is. To me a senior dev is someone who can individually contribute pretty well without much supervision. Some senior dev roles you see are more like a technical team lead who will clearly be firefighting 60+ hours a week and pulled all directions by management.
Never heard of SOUP before, sounds a right hassle, but like most of this kind of stuff, if you suck it up and are pragmatic, bet its not that bad.
Salary discussion is a bit meaningless when no 2 organisations agree what a ‘senior dev’ is. To me a senior dev is someone who can individually contribute pretty well without much supervision.
I agree but would go further than that, sometimes within an organisation there is no consistency... I've never worked in a team larger than 10 and normally about 4/5, so even "junior" developers were expected to manage products without much supervision. I think they inherited, or just felt like they had to have, a "structure" with junior / normal / senior / principal positions, but they didn't mean anything and everyone mostly ignored them (unless the company thought they could fob someone off with a bump of role in lieu of a bigger payrise...)
What kind of responsibility does that senior dev have?
Someone who is a technical expert in a particular field (or many), who mentors and line manages junior developers, is involved in recruitment, architecting solutions from the ground up, and working with leadership/management to set strategy (as in it gets delegated to them because the directors aren't technically savvy 🙂 ). Also because its a consultancy environment seniors are expected to do some business development and client work. This could be networking, providing content for bids, costing and estimating work, to creating resource schedules and programmes. It's ridiculous quite frankly!
I'd expect £70-80k for that.
I really need to pull my finger out then! I do all that above and more and I'm nowhere near 70, let alone 80 🙂
This is a long thread, quite existential ! - who knew so many devs on here.
Have been a dev since 85, never out of work except by choice, went freelance in 90 and never looked back. Freelance is not without its downsides, but the upsides are saying what you think and not having to worry about your career. You might get bounced for that, but I never have. No management path, no managing people etc for me. I like writing code and its worked for me.
Like all jobs you do have to sit back and decide when to move on - if it's not making you happy, make a change. There is no way of knowing before hand whether that will be for the better or the worse, but you have to make it. You also have to look hard at your character - am I abrasive, am i employable, am I taking on work I can't complete, am I fitting in with a team, have I been pigeonholed etc, which can be hard.
Have never regretted a day of being a dev, it's a different day every day. If there is a new skill you think you might like - learn it in your own time and find a way to make it work on your current job. Don't take time out to do this, do it while getting paid.
Specialise for the big bucks, but be a jack of all trades for consistent employment. I learnt perl soon after it came out - have used it in almost every role over the years, where others who know just one thing/environment struggle to do simple tasks.
A few jobs I have stayed on for the money longer than I should have, not many.
If you want money, target the skills and industry that get you there - banking and services etc, if you want job satisfaction, find what you like and try to do that.
Programming is treated like a science, but it's really an art form, self improvement, learning from others, achieving small goals is the key to enjoying it. What new language have you picked up in the last 6 months ?, if none then you are standing still.
Finally, stay away from Windows, that shit will kill you.
Does anyone have any advice on what languages/stack would be best to learn for a good all-round kind of knowledge? I’m a test analyst/QA engineer at the moment and I’m pretty interested into getting into either automation or regular dev work.
Python is a great start - but don't learn it slowly, learn it quick. Do you watch tv in the evening ?, watch it whilst programming - find a definite task, and make that happen. There are lots of learning resources online, coderdojo for example. Dev work needs motivation, there is no substitute for competence, and that only comes from time invested. Learn perl/bash etc for automation, then automation tools. The people who impress are the ones who spend time doing, be that guy !
Finally, stay away from Windows, that shit will kill you.
*looks up from Visual Basic code* I have no idea what you mean *dribbles onto keyboard*
@dazh - your job sounds a lot like mine !
I’m a test analyst/QA engineer at the moment and I’m pretty interested into getting into either automation or regular dev work
Pick an automated test framework and learn it; choose one that aligns with the tech your devs use; that way if you have any problems you can lean on them for support / assistance.
Enthusiasm and continuous improvement are the key things to be a successful dev. Being comfortable across a range of languages. My background is primarily C#/.net; but over my last three roles I've has to learn/use Kotlin, Node.js, Swift, Vue, React, Angular (and probably more besides) - plus all the supporting tech - Azure, Docker, Kubernetes, AWS, Serverless, Cloudformation - the list is never ending really !
Also; learn to use git (or whatever source control system you use) properly; and pay attention to your workflows. What is "done" - how do things get merged; how do you manage release cycles; CI/CD. It's a pretty broad field !
*looks up from Visual Basic code* I have no idea what you mean *dribbles onto keyboard*
Tell me about it - user-facing part of my current stuff runs on Win10 (after we moved it from XP/WES) and is a heady mix of C#, C++ and VB6! That's right, not even VB.Net, proper old VB6 😲
One of the other issues with safety-critical stuff is that all change is risk, so lots of very long life legacy stuff to wade through.
Programming is treated like a science
Yup, it ain't no science, it is barely even engineering. I would not say art though, 'craft' is a better term. The best coders are artisans not engineers.
One last thing - if you are a test/QA engineer and you would like to be a dev, read this link.
It's only a small thing, but dev's can be picky, and if we come across someone who knows the difference between these things, and knows which one they are doing at the time, its sure to be remembered.
Don't try to explain this to management - it's too late for them.
Does anyone have any advice on what languages/stack would be best to learn for a good all-round kind of knowledge? I’m a test analyst/QA engineer at the moment and I’m pretty interested into getting into either automation or regular dev work.
I made that jump. But I was only QA for a little while (< 1 year).
I'd say learn one language well rather than try to tick every box for everything, and try to choose the language for the kind of work that you want to do to start with. After you've made the transition, it'll be easier to move around.
Interesting stuff haloric. Started learning Vue framework about 6 months ago and worked on some small reverse engineering projects.
I am always keen to learn new stuff but finding time outside work I do struggle with as I want .1 spend time away from a screen and have a life. I would not leave a computer if I was coding in the evening as well .2 learn other things. Usually related such as electronics or engineering.
I will say that all my jobs have been pigeon holed by this has been the companies as a hole, although I have tried shoehorn in other stuff.
Edit: I should add I have always tried to learn new stuff but only had the chance to use it once or twice.
What new language have you picked up in the last 6 months ?, if none then you are standing still.
I don't think you need to learn a new language every 6 months. If that's what you enjoy, sure. But you should be comfortable that you are learning new "things". There's plenty you can pick up that isn't a new language - docker, kubernetes, kafka, ci/cd, serverless, etc. The list is pretty endless.
Yup, it ain’t no science, it is barely even engineering.
The problem is, it *should* be engineering.
Whilst there are Windows devs on here - how easily can I knock up a noddy Windows GUI app with fields on screen that does basically nothing? We need a mock Windows based app to test our automation software.
very quickly if it is jus form with no logic and no comms
Whilst there are Windows devs on here – how easily can I knock up a noddy Windows GUI app with fields on screen that does basically nothing? We need a mock Windows based app to test our automation software.
Should be able to knock something together quickly with Electron - https://www.electronjs.org/
Salary discussion is a bit meaningless when no 2 organisations agree what a ‘senior dev’ is
Very true, I've separately held positions titled software engineer and senior dev and I don't consider myself either (I'm not a programmer)
My job is more akin to the sticking bits of Lego together that someone mentioned earlier.
If you are just using standard windows controls then you can knock up a Windows Forms interface pretty quickly in Visual Studio. It’s just drag and drop really.
Slightly longer if you want WPF/XAML based.
A LOT longer if you actually want it done right.
The problem is, it *should* be engineering.
Not happened yet
Whilst there are Windows devs on here .....
get visual studio community, make new c# winforms project, you'll probably figure the rest out
Not sure JS will cut it. The reason for doing this is that the app had problems finding the fields in a Java app.
I might try downloading VS and maybe there's a sample app or two.
The problem is, it *should* be engineering.
Indeed. I'm trying to make the case at my place that it is engineering, and that it shouldn't be treated any differently. To the civil and building engineers it's just writing code to do random stuff, which is fine and they should be perfectly capable of doing that themselves (it's amazing how many arent!). But if they want to build a scalable production level web/database applicatiion with a maintainable codebase they need to get professionals to do it. I always ask them if they would trust me to design the superstructure of a building after a few months training, because that's what they are expecting to be able to do by messing around with python a bit.
Seems a reasonable point to say we’re recruiting for loads of different technical skill sets. As I post under my real name, a cursory glance over the social network that Links people In should point you to who I work for, and thus our jobs postings. We are a consultancy though, so above and beyond technical skills you’re expected to be mobile and client facing. The trade off is you’ll get a London focused salary and can live anywhere in the country.
Happy to receive PMs either through here, or the aforementioned social networking site.