My wife got caught doing 40 in a 30 zone, she was accelerating into a national speed limit area.
Ahh, that's not something I have quite so much sympathy for. We used to live opposite a village primary school and the national speed limit sign just became visible about the point you went past the school. There was definitely a perception of some 'frequent flyers' on that road that accelerating hard once you can see the sign was fair game irrespective of the fact you were still going past the school.
Was she driving towards the NSL in the lower pic? With the t junction there which as a driver joining would be really helpful if the traffic was doing the advertised limit or at least being consistent. Looks like the NSL signs are there for good reasons and hence enforcing them is a good idea. The gem from a driving course through work was they NSL's are not magnetic...
I got done for doing 40 about where the viewpoint is on the A4, just where it exits a railway bridge,
Can't agree that 40 (or probably slightly more) would ever be appropriate just after exiting [url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @51.4518314,-2.1322661,3a,75y,260.14h,66.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suBoITJ4NDzd4ZkRPvUrL1g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656]this underpass[/url] in a residential area.
You can always find plenty of examples of roads where the limit needs to go down, but I doubt there will as many where a lower limit has been put there with no justification whatsoever.
Take your A272 example. Your argument makes some sense from the angle you've presented, but drive from the [url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @51.0100424,-0.9878073,3a,75y,329.2h,71.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si3WupUKJTkqLZ0-6VSyObg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656]opposite direction[/url] and the reasons for some kind restriction are totally obvious. Blind bends and crests just before junctions, playground sign on right etc. I'd wager that if you look into the archives you'll find some nasty accidents on that stretch. You could argue that 40 might just be OK, but I'd say 30 was about right.
mikewsmithWas she driving towards the NSL in the lower pic? With the t junction there which as a driver joining would be really helpful if the traffic was doing the advertised limit or at least being consistent. Looks like the NSL signs are there for good reasons and hence enforcing them is a good idea. The gem from a driving course through work was they NSL's are not magnetic...
Yes, driving towards the NSL. I get your point, however hiding in a lay bye targeting people leaving town doesn't really do anything to proactively protect or ensure the safety of people at that T-Junction. To find out two weeks after the fact. As you can see there's a climbing lane on the same side of the road as that T-junction and then you are straight into a 30.
She's obviously going to do the speed awareness but I think doing 40 as you leave the 30 going into the NSL is far less agregious than the people doing 60+ well into the 30 (and these would be the main revenue source for the aforementioned hidden police).
Where I got done was M4 run up to the tolls after the bridge into Wales. Goes 70 to 50 and runs for a long stretch at 50 up to the tolls. Everyone just starts to slow down until they get to the tolls. Cops sit on the bridge behind a gantry and collect a fortune there, detecting speeds half a mile away down the road.
In my case I was going 63 and slowing down just a little after the 50 sign, several cars speeding past me at the time also.
Sure, I'm still in the wrong and took the speed awareness course (was useful), but that one definitely seems more about revenue than safety, considering everyone is aware of the tolls coming up. Plus they could do a lot more to slow people down if that concerned instead of a 50 sign that you could blink and miss.
Your argument makes some sense from the angle you've presented,
Yup a very selective photo.
My wife got caught doing 40 in a 30 zone, she was accelerating into a national speed limit area.
The second part of that sentence is not needed.
hiding in a lay bye targeting people leaving town doesn't really do anything to proactively protect or ensure the safety of people at that T-Junction.
Depends. If they nab a load of locals/commuters who make a habit of doing this, it may well change their behaviour in future and reduce the problems for the poor buggers who have to turn right out of that junction. I take it your wife won't be doing it again?
I agree that 40 probably wasn't the worst case they had that day, I imagine that they put the van there primarily to get those accelerating a lot harder from a lot further back.
I mean if there was only some way to avoid these speeding taxes.
DracThe second part of that sentence is not needed.
Well she's a person not a Tesla, people make mistakes and when they do it can be useful to review them to figure out why. I can see from the first page of this thread that most of STW is populated by driving robots who can quote the Highway Code, chapter and verse and who presumably have never sped or made a mistake driving, but thank **** I'm not married to someone like that 😆
martinhutch
imagine that they put the van there primarily to get those accelerating a lot harder from a lot further back.
No they're mainly targeting people who don't slow to 30 as they come off the climbing lane.
Well she's a person not a Tesla, people make mistakes and when they do it can be useful to review them to figure out why.
She decided to apply more right foot or not brake in a 30 limit? Any other reasons?
It happens with increasing regularity as you come to realise it's a government cash cow, you'll get offered the course which by and large is a massive waste of a day and costs 80 odd quid which is a lot for a minor infraction, but you'll take something from the course. Thirty in third seems to have stuck with me and locally I'm hardly ever out of third gear, even in forty zones where I have now become one of those irritating drivers that still does thirty ish.
I always used to push my luck, time was I had three sets of 12 points in a row, but not these days that annoying course pushed a couple of buttons and now I'm embarrassingly well behaved and a bit better informed than I was, since I passed my test in 1965.
I find the gimzo that reads speed limits (displayed on dash and speedo) on our car is very useful as an additional aid to checking the speed limit you are currently in.
people make mistakes and when they do it can be useful to review them to figure out why.
Far be it from to suggest the police just sit and collect revenue at this spot, but that's exactly what they seem to be doing.
Seems like you've reviewed your wife's mistakes and blamed the police.
There aren't many on this thread who are claiming to be perfect. The only difference is those who choose to suck it up and admit their punishment is totally justified, and use it as a learning experience, and those who think it was all terribly unfair.
Yup a very selective photo.
apart from the 2nd link being to a location almost 1 mile from mine.....
Although I agree in your location a 100-150m stretch needs a bit of protection. Not sure what the shortest speed restriction from NSL can be.
Well she's a person not a Tesla, people make mistakes and when they do it can be useful to review them to figure out why.
They do her mistake was thinking you needed to speed up before reaching the NSL.
If you start it entering the village, you may as well keep it until the final junction has been passed. Can't see any problem with that limit, TBH, or the stretch of 40 after it.
I'm genuinely puzzled by the streetlight thing, and it's something I've tried to understand in the past. Am I right in thinking that if a road is [b]marked with a national speed limit[/b] sign, and you enter a section with streetlights (a certain width apart), it then becomes a 30mph limit enforceable by law? There is no need for 30 signs anywhere?
The repeater thing I don't mind, and always assume 30 if there are none. But the streetlights are way too confusing if my understanding is correct.
My wife got caught doing 40 in a 30 zone, she was accelerating into a national speed limit area.
I grew up on a 30 limit road, couple of hundred metres before it changes to NSL. And the amount of people who speed up to 60 or 70 through the end of the village is ridiculous. I can reel off loads of accidents - some are incomprehensible. People crashed into our house, our neighbours house, our neighbour, our neighbour's grandchild (almost died). Literally dozens, on a perfectly straight road. At least one fatality right outside the door. I very much doubt any of them would have happened had they not sped up before the NSL, or failed to slow down before they reached it.
Drac
They do her mistake was thinking you needed to speed up before reaching the NSL.
Ah yes. It's either black or white. She either was speeding or wasn't therefore she was either going too fast or she wasn't. I mean it's irrelevant that she exited a side road from a hospital on to a stretch of road 90 miles from where she lives which has no speed limits indicated and without carefully watching the speedo the car would easily roll down the hill at 40mph in that section. She's still a menace.
Less of a toss could I give that she's going to have to spend her money and her time doing a speed awareness because she didn't have her eyes glued to a speedo on an unfamiliar stretch of road, or that she didn't spot the cops hunkered down behind an unmarked van, just keep scoring your internet points there. You're winning 😆
I'm genuinely puzzled by the streetlight thing, and it's something I've tried to understand in the past. Am I right in thinking that if a road is marked with a national speed limit sign, and you enter a section with streetlights (a certain width apart), it then becomes a 30mph limit enforceable by law? There is no need for 30 signs anywhere?
No, there is always a sign where a speed limit changes.
Am I right in thinking that if a road is marked with a national speed limit sign, and you enter a section with streetlights (a certain width apart), it then becomes a 30mph limit enforceable by law? There is no need for 30 signs anywhere?
There will be one for the change, if you don't see that and the other features exist you will now be in a 30 unless otherwise signed.
There are lots of places in London that would be assumed to be 30 according to the rules but are now actually 20. It's very easy to miss the sign (being at junctions where you have lots going on) but there are repeaters. I doubt it will be policed but it would be hard if you were using a telematics box.
I mean it's irrelevant that she exited a side road from a hospital on to a stretch of road 90 miles from where she lives which has no speed limits indicated
Yes, it is. And half the content of this thread is about the 'indications' which help drivers work out the speed limit in the absence of repeaters. Sounds like the speed awareness course (where they go over this kind of boring, useless information) might be quite handy. It certainly was for me.
Your wife was speeding and got caught. No internet point winning here but your wife has won some points. Same as when it happened to me, I was speeding and got caught. It was my fault I was speeding on a pretty empty dual carriageway 250 miles from home. Not sure if it was near a hospital.
There is no need to stare at your Speedo I'm not sure why people use that one.
+1 😉I mean it's irrelevant that she exited a side road from a hospital
generally, that means 30 unless evidence to the contrary. Anyway, i thought she wason to a stretch of road 90 miles from where she lives which has no speed limits indicated
she was accelerating into a national speed limit area
speed doesn't change that fast unless one of the pedals is involved or the road's a lot steeper than that onebecause she didn't have her eyes glued to a speedo on an unfamiliar stretch of road
Stop whining; she was inattentive and is paying the price
No, there is always a sign where a speed limit changes.
Not necessarily. Simply, it could have been vandalised/fell off/turned around, but the limit is still the lower one.
FWIW my dad was a police instructor and they had a favourite bit of road in Wakefield that they would use to take nearly qualified pursuit drivers down. It was a 40 signed road, with repeaters, that changed into an unsigned 30 due to lamppost spacing. They were expected to notice the change or they would "fail". But the point is that all drivers are expected to know.
It's not always clear.
There's a section of my commute which goes from 40 to NSL to 30. The 40 is a built-up area, the NSL bit is a country road and then the 30 applies just before buildings appear again. After the buildings have been passed, it goes back up to 50.
As you get signs when the limit changes, the only logical limit for the NSL is for it to be a 60mph limit. Yet, there are regular street lamps which could imply a 30.
Rule 124 of THC (emphasis mine):
[i]
You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle (see the speed limits table). The presence of street lights generally means that there is a 30 mph (48 km/h) speed limit [b]unless otherwise specified.[/b][/i]
So despite the presence of street lights, it's indicated as NSL, so it's 60. If you'd missed the first NSL sign though and was looking for clues, you'd assume 30. (I can't remember offhand if there's repeaters.)
It's broadly an irrelevance anyway, most drivers in front of me on that 40-60-30-50 stretch do 40mph through the lot. The 30mph section is a favourite spot for mobile speed cameras.
her mistake was thinking you needed to speed up before reaching the NSL.
Once on a motorcycle lesson, I got shouted at by my instructor for [i]not[/i] doing this. WTF? Needless to say, I ignored her.
They were expected to notice the change or they would "fail". But the point is that all drivers are expected to know.
Surely there's no such thing as an unsigned road. There will always be a sign you've most recently passed.
Once on a motorcycle lesson, I got shouted at by my instructor for not doing this. WTF? Needless to say, I ignored her.
Was it Mrs Jimjam?
But the point is that all drivers are expected to know.
But how do you know??
For example, the road I grew up on (described before). Once you hit the NSL, there are still street lamps all the way. Are they less than 183m apart? I've no idea, and would never know that without measuring. I think they'd be somewhere in that region.
It makes more sense that a change in speed would always be marked. And I'm going to assume that from now on, and that NSL is not 30 when streetlit. I think the main confusion has come from the fact that this has been described to me as national speed limit. When in reality we're talking default limits for all roads if we were to remove signage, and that's a different thing - nothing to do with NSL at all.
Some good points made in this thread regarding recognition of limits.
It's amazing how many people look at a road and choose a limit due to the features of the road, houses etc. I have a lot of students who will think they are in a 40 when they are in a 30 due to the houses being further apart. I always have a joke with them that they " see a bit of grass and think it's a 40 "
Around my area, there is a lot of areas with missing repeater signs so, for test purposes, if they miss the 40 and carry on at 30, they will fail. Not a massive problem when you have passed apart from annoying people behind.
A good one to ask motorists is what speed they should drive at when they see the national speed limit sign. You will get answers from 30, 40 but rarely will anyone get it correct that you can drive a car at 60 in a national.
I don't think it's been mentioned so far but the only time you will get 30 mph repeaters is when there are no street lights.
A good one to ask motorists is what speed they [b]should[/b] drive at when they see the national speed limit sign. You will get answers from 30, 40 but rarely will anyone get it correct that you can drive a car at 60 in a national.
There are countless roads around here that are NSL where you most definitely shouldn't drive at 60 mph. Maybe you want to rephrase your question?
A good one to ask motorists is what speed they should drive at [b]when they see[/b] the national speed limit sign. You will get answers from 30, 40 but rarely will anyone get it correct that you can drive a car at 60 in a national.
That's what got Mrs JimJam into difficulties. 🙂
The one that I hadn't realised is that a dual carriageway simply refers to the separation between the carriageways, not the number of lanes on each side - so you can do 70 on a single lane highway as long as the carriageways are separated.
A good one to ask motorists is what speed they should drive at when they see the national speed limit sign. You will get answers from 30, 40 but rarely will anyone get it correct that you can drive a car at 60 in a national.
There are countless roads around here that are NSL where you most definitely shouldn't drive at 60 mph. Maybe you want to rephrase your question?
Ok. " what is the national speed limit for a car and if safe to do so, what speed can you get upto ? "
rarely will anyone get it correct that you can drive a car at 60 in a national.
The correct answer is up to 70, depending on the road type.
see, that's 2 different answers 😉Ok. " what is the national speed limit for a car and if safe to do so, what speed can you get upto ? "
Those of you going on about streetlights might want to refresh your knowledge. 183 m apart is your clue
Where have you got this figure from (200yds I assume)? The figure quoted on the course I did said something like "30 yards" (I can't remember exactly now), and THC just says "the presence of street lights" as a rule of thumb when there's no other signage.
There are countless roads around here that are NSL where you most definitely shouldn't drive at 60 mph. Maybe you want to rephrase your question?
As the poindexters will tell you with tedious regularity on any and all speed-related discussions, it's a limit not a target.
You should be driving at or near the limit [i]when it is safe to do so.[/i] If you drive at 60 in an NSL when the road conditions would suggest a slower speed to be more appropriate then you will fail a test; similarly, if you mince around at 30 in an NSL for no good reason, you will also fail.
I'm on a speed awareness course in 2 weeks. I was doing 37 in a 30. The fella was on an unmarked bike, in Jeans, no Hi Viz with a gun.
Miffed, but at the end of the day I can only blame myself.
Interesting to see the price differences for the courses across counties though.
What speed can I go up to?
Depends what I'm driving.
As a non-driver I'm a bit puzzled by this thread - cars race around my residential area at high speed regardless of the danger of, e.g. a child emerging from between parked cars. Are you now telling me that a) this is illegal and on top of that b) there are areas of the country where the police make an effort to apprehend violators?
The one that I hadn't realised is that a dual carriageway simply refers to the separation between the carriageways, not the number of lanes on each side - so you can do 70 on a single lane highway as long as the carriageways are separated.
Correct. Popular misconception, it's got nothing to do with lanes.
On the SAC I did, other than the course leaders I was the only person in the room who knew a) what the difference was between single- and dual-carriageways and b) what the limits where on those roads.
It's surprising how many people (like the OP) think that 40mph is a standard speed limit anywhere. It's relatively unusual. In the absence of regular signage, it's never going to be a 40; it'll be 30, 60 or 70.
You should be driving at or near the limit when it is safe to do so. If you drive at 60 in an NSL when the road conditions would suggest a slower speed to be more appropriate then you will fail a test; similarly, if you mince around at 30 in an NSL for no good reason, you will also fail.
Exactly. Spot on.
Apologies if I don't write the correct thing every time, I'm not good at putting things into writing.
As a non-driver I'm a bit puzzled by this thread - cars race around my residential area at high speed regardless of the danger of, e.g. a child emerging from between parked cars. Are you now telling me that a) this is illegal and on top of that b) there are areas of the country where the police make an effort to apprehend violators?
The police (well, the now apparently defunct ACPO) have said that it's generally not their policy to police 20mph zones.
If it's a problem, get on to the council about installing traffic-calming measures.
I'm not good at putting things into writing.
Or quotes. (-:
It's surprising how many people (like the OP) think that 40mph is a standard speed limit anywhere
The empirical evidence of the 45 everywhere driver (obviously 40 and a bit for luck) says how poor the awareness and standards are out there. Perhaps speed awareness is just a warm up for mandatory retesting
On the SAC I did, other than the course leaders I was the only person in the room who knew a) what the difference was between single- and dual-carriageways and b) what the limits where on those roads.
No-one likes a smart-arse. 🙂
The other really interesting thing I learned from my SAC was the non-linear nature of decceleration under braking, ie the fact that at low speeds most of the meaningful braking happens in the last couple of metres. So if you are doing 35 and a kid runs out in front, in a situation where you'd just stop in time at 30, you'll hit them at 15 mph.
