MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
We all make mistakes, forgot things or misjudge - whether it’s speeding or parking. Get a fine, pay it and move on.
The older I get the less hassle I need in my life. For the sake of a small fine, for a legitimate reason, I'd have paid it and "moved on". If I didn't want the parking company to have my girlfriends details then I'd have either just paid it myself or even subsequently got her to pay me back. However, it wouldn't have given us the drama/pram-toy ejection scenario that this thread has. It certainly seems like a lot of grief for no good cause.
So when you are in court and they ask “so who was driving” are you going to perjure yourself to deny knowing who was driving?
Of course not. My whole defense to the court is 'my girlfriend was driving'. Which she was. In scotland however, legally I don't need to disclose that information to a private company. If the court asks for it I'll give it, if the sheriff tells me to provide her details to the parking co (which is very unlikely given there is no legal requirement for me to do so) I'd tell them.
There is zero perjury required here. If I had been invited to the court this would be thrown out in minutes given I can absolutely prove I wasnt driving the car.
None of this seems worth the hassle.
Well if they'd invited me to court it would have been zero hassle at all, it's 5 min walk from my house and as nailed on a win for me as possible. It's only a hassle because I didn't receive the summons and I now have to go through the repeal process
So is it possible the dvla has provided the court with the address of the new owner? I'll check on Monday when it opens.
Unlikely given that they didn’t seem to have any problem attaching the claim to your name and address when it came to lodging it against your credit history.
I’ve read this thread and I’m baffled as to why you posted it in the first place. You kind of asked for advice but any time someone suggests something you just tell them they’re wrong and you’re right.
Seems kind of pointless to me.
Agreed. Skimmed a thread that started with a 'what are my options' and pretty much every subsequent post by the OP has been pretty chippy shouting down of folks attempting to contribute as requested. Odd.
Wow.... OP.... you're really not making friends here!
I'm struggling to understand why you didn't just pay the parking charge that was correctly issued.
First you say you wrote to them and then you say you've deleted all your sent emails*
An email can easily go missing or redirected so there's no way of you knowing that they got it.
If you had actually written [a letter] and done a recorded delivery you would know they had your response.
But given your existing low opinion of parking companies you probably didn't want to waste £2 on a written reply so thought you'd go the cheap route and may have paid the price.
I also can't see how you have not received any further letters from the parking company or the court.
* Who would do this??!
(Oh, and why are the parking company "absolute scum"?
They're doing a job, or do you think you have the right to park anywhere any time?)
I’ve read this thread and I’m baffled as to why you posted it in the first place. You kind of asked for advice but any time someone suggests something you just tell them they’re wrong and you’re right.
Seems kind of pointless to me.
Is this your first time here?
Oh, and why are the parking company "absolute scum"?
I'm not sure if I'd call them scum. But it's a business type that is largely "unregulated" which can cause issues.
I'm struggling to understand why you didn't just pay the parking charge that was correctly issued.
Once again, i am not liable for the ticket, the law is very very clear on that point
If you had actually written [a letter] and done a recorded delivery you would know they had your response.
But given your existing low opinion of parking companies you probably didn't want to waste £2 on a written reply so thought you'd go the cheap route and may have paid the price.
I also can't see how you have not received any further letters from the parking company or the court.
Or I could use the online application form they ask you to use..and if you'd bother reading the entire thread you'd have noticed I stated I have a response from them which outlines my appeal, so I'm completely covered on that front
Agreed. Skimmed a thread that started with a 'what are my options' and pretty much every subsequent post by the OP has been pretty chippy shouting down of folks attempting to contribute as requested. Odd.
In fairness the only advice received is folks chirping up with ' you should have paid' which, whilst maybe wise in hindsight, is entirely redundant advice now.
Not one person actually offered up advice on the the correct procedure to redress, which i discovered after I originally posted (from a friend who actually knows what they are talking about)
They're doing a job, or do you think you have the right to park anywhere any time?)
Once again, I didn't park anywhere hence why I shouldn't pay
you're really not making friends here!
I'm not on here to make friends! I was after useful practical advice. There have been about 2 posts of any use. The rest is just judgement on my choice not to pay up, false information, and folks that don't understand Scottish law.
So if anyone has any useful advice on the procedure to recall in a Scottish court bash on. If you just want to vent that I was an idiot for not paying then by all means carry on....just dont expect a civil response
Well that's the lay of the land.
Sadly I don't have any useful information for you. Sorry. But if I did, to be honest I think I'd rather shit in my hands and clamp than pass it on.
Happy New Year!
CaB in Scotland strongly suggests you engage legal representation if your going to push to a sheriff to fight it . Good luck in your self representation quest. I suspect we won't hear about the result.
I think I predicted it early on, but still tried to offer some hopefully useful info. Sorry it wasn't, but I kind of wish I hadn't wasted my time on it now, given the spirit in which it's being rejected. So on the basis you aren't here to make friends:
I think depicting the PPC from the outset as scum when there is as yet no actual evidence they have done anything other than follow appropriate (regulated) processes and in doing so had a court find in their favour is unfair. So far there is one party in the wrong here - morally if not absolute legally - and that's the party that committed a parking offence, had opportunity to fess up and pay the fine, but decided to try to wriggle out on a technicality.
I stand by my earlier statement that I'm sympathetic that you now have all the hassles of a CCJ to deal with, but on the basis of everything else I kind of hope the PPC turn up with evidence of having followed all due process and the Sheriff has one of those moments where spirit if not letter is actually followed, because that is the right outcome for me. I'll stop short of calling you scum, but I have a low opinion would be fair to say of those that work the system, it's people like you that mean we need PPCs to enforce landowner rights, because without, someone's always going to take advantage.
Sadly I don't have any useful information for you
Don't worry I knew that already, hence I was surprised you bothered posting in a thread specifically asking for useful information 😉
And don't worry, I'll happily post back what the outcome is. It'll probably be around February according to the court.
Anyways, regardless of your opinions I wish you all a happy new year when it comes!
This thread is useless without pictures.
Happy new year
Wait, so why did tpbiker not get his OH to just pay the fine, she fled the scene?
I wonder idly how this thread would have gone if instead of "girlfriend" the car had been stolen. Should tpbiker have paid?
A fundamental part of that story would involve the reporting of the vehicle being stolen. -then deleting the email of course.
For clarity no email was deleted..
I couldn't find it and then recalled the application for appeal is done via an online form which I have a receipt for.
Anyways, legally I know im in the right. Morally you can decide fir yourself.
As for why my gf didn't pay..she was broke after her ex screwed her for every penny she was entitled to in her divorce and left her with a vast debt. So she couldnt afford to.
I think the least moraly ambiguous thing to do in this specific scenario, is for the wife/girlfriend to admit it, and if she's broke, her generous boyfriend/hubby pays the fine.
That's how I'd have played it, anyway.
Sound's like she's bang to rights, and the damage has already been done, so to speak, if it's been through court, right or wrong, it's going to be a right pain in the ass trying to get that reversed on a technicality....so that horse has probably bolted.
Just get it payed and move on.
Who actually pays it isn't really important.
Don't get me wrong, I have the morals of an alley cat when it comes to this kind of thing, but I like to think I know when to cut my losses!
Ah, I remember the thread about the divorce 'settlement' - from the sounds of it there wasn't a good outcome then. Did she actually get the advice suggested, try to put a halt on and then still get screwed over? Or did she not act in time, and it went through as per the signed settlement agreement? Did you get any further after your August update?
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/off-topic/any-divorce-lawyers-in-the-house-settlement-agreements/
I ask because, being blunt, she seems to have a somewhat less than diligent method at dealing with official process and paperwork, and potentially a less than full transparency approach to telling you about stuff. She now depends on you and your finances to support her with this debt. And has now got a parking ticket that has through the wheels of process now turned into a court summons against you. I can imagine she might be worried given past history of how a partner reacts to that sort of thing.
I don't like to cast aspersions at someone that you clearly have feelings for (albeit, in August with some reservations - "I'm not going to lie..something doesn't feel right here") but are you absolutely certain that docs were not received and then 'lost'?
If you're going to use your legal entitlement to apply for the court to recall the judgement on the basis you didn't receive the paperwork, I'd suggest being very certain about not being countered by the PPC or Court providing evidence that it was delivered or handed to your girlfriend. Might not affect your ability to recall - you personally could still legitimately claim you didn't receive it - but at least then you can give a clear explanation about why and hope they are sympathetic to the circumstances that might cause this.
you can represent yourself in any Scottish court - it doesn’t necessarily mean you should.i reckon your now at the point where you will be requiring legal representation even in Scotland.
As I mentioned there is a specific route to redress this kind of thing in scotland. It's called an 'application to recall a decree'. No lawyer required.
the sheriff won’t be interested in that when s/he considers the question of recalling the decree. Their mind will simply be on the question of were you properly afforded the ability to respond to the case. You probably can succeed at this without representation - but the burden is now going to be on you to prove a negative and someone who knows the system and understands what should have been done might be wise. There will be time limits on various things and you will need to explain why they have been exceeded etc.So basically. It looks like I'll have the chance to show him all the evidence i wasnt driving on the day I said I said I was
If you chase this, and still lose, you MAY be liable for costs. Ordinary simplified procedure doesn’t involve costs but recalling a decree might? And a sheriff *might* form a view that you could have resolved it quickly. Of course they might also form a view that you did nothing at all wrong and the parking company misled the court causing you a lot of stress and hassle and it would be perfectly reasonable for you to enlist professional help and award costs in your favour.
Your first mistake was even responding to the parking company
The fact they've gone after you in court for one ticket is bizarre. Aside from the claim you received no notification of the court case, you've likely done something that has made it a slam dunk case for them.
You may get the CCJ reversed, but someone, either you or your girlfriend, is going to have to pay up
I think I predicted it early on, but still tried to offer some hopefully useful info. Sorry it wasn't, but I kind of wish I hadn't wasted my time on it now, given the spirit in which it's being rejected. So on the basis you aren't here to make friends:
I think depicting the PPC from the outset as scum when there is as yet no actual evidence they have done anything other than follow appropriate (regulated) processes and in doing so had a court find in their favour is unfair. So far there is one party in the wrong here - morally if not absolute legally - and that's the party that committed a parking offence, had opportunity to fess up and pay the fine, but decided to try to wriggle out on a technicality.
I stand by my earlier statement that I'm sympathetic that you now have all the hassles of a CCJ to deal with, but on the basis of everything else I kind of hope the PPC turn up with evidence of having followed all due process and the Sheriff has one of those moments where spirit if not letter is actually followed, because that is the right outcome for me. I'll stop short of calling you scum, but I have a low opinion would be fair to say of those that work the system, it's people like you that mean we need PPCs to enforce landowner rights, because without, someone's always going to take advantage.
When I saw this one I thought about offering advice to engage with the parking firm but then saw the OP’s responses.
I thing you provide an excellent summary but do miss the crucial bit about his girlfriends lack of funds being the root cause.
The lack of funds from the girlfriend makes this even stupider though. The op has been deliberately evasive and trying to get this thrown out on one point of law, while ignoring the fact that there was a rule break in the first place even if it wasn't by him
At least op is aware they are not making friends, and enjoy your ccj. Op has the feel of someone who doesn't drive but travels
I thing you provide an excellent summary but do miss the crucial bit about his girlfriends lack of funds being the root cause.
That was disclosed after, but then opens up a further possibility as the gf has some history beyond being broke.
It's pure conjecture but when everything seems to rest on not receiving paperwork I'm not sure the only possibility is that it wasn't sent.
Oo I wonder if some of the posters here could be even more sanctimonious. Go on, please.
HNY 🙃
"A man who represents himself in court has a fool for a client"
Widely attributed to Abe Lincoln, it's good advice - not that the OP wants to hear any advice. I greatly look forward to hearing the outcome later this year. 🤣
Your first mistake was even responding to the parking company
Now that is a stupid piece of advice, not engaging in the process (for whatever reason, although I suspect theotherjonv may have suggested the most credible scenario) is what caused this to happen.
PPCs want their money and will pursue people right up to the point of court hearing. If a defence is entered, even a poor one, they tend to discontinue the case, what makes it a slam dunk for them is the defendant not engaging. In many respects tpbiker has done exactly what they wanted, posted on the Internet that is possible to get a CCJ if you don't pay a private parking invoice.
As for advice, I've clearly set out how these companies operate, including the multiple mailings between initial PCN and final court judgement but you've failed at every turn to consider how they all failed to arrive despite the first one getting to you and instead stuck your head in the sand intimating it was all under hand tactics from the PPC. I also suggested you post on FTLA where they often give good, structured advice on cases like this.
Your original point was correct, there is no keeper liability in Scotland, but that only works if you defend the case I court. Bit like having right of way as a cyclist but ending up under the wheels of a tipper truck, in the right but dead.
Before you do anything else you need to work out why you didn't receive any paperwork, this will be material evidence when to appeal to the sheriff. If the PPC racks up with mutiple proofs of posting (which is all they need) your case will sink pretty quickly and you'll be even more out of pocket.
Before you do anything else you need to work out why you didn't receive any paperwork, this will be material evidence when to appeal to the sheriff. If the PPC racks up with mutiple proofs of posting (which is all they need) your case will sink pretty quickly and you'll be even more out of pocket.
Yes I'll be at the court first thing Monday to ask for copies of the letters to check the address. It's them that sent the court summons, what the parking company sent isn't that relevant
According to my lawyer mate, the cost of a recall application is 72 quid. There are several possible outcomes.
1- It is granted. My ccj is wiped. The old decree is set aside plus the old costs. I then go to court and my liability is decided on whether I was driving, the fact I didn't respond to letters at this point becomes irrelevant. If I win I'm all good. If I lose then I am subject to the fine, any expenses (usually minimal and probably no more than the original 140 quid). Realistically no worse off than now
2 - it's granted. My ccj is wiped. Dont go to court, I pay 160 quid and it's done
3- the application is opposed by the parking company and the sherrif decides not to reopen the case. In very rare cases a nominal extra cost may be awarded to the opposer but it's not the cost of the solicitors time
If i decide to appeal he has agreed to help me complete the form. No representation is required in court for these types of cases.
Either way he assures me that at worst ill be a couple of hundred quid worse off than I am now, large expenses arent granted in these cases, however he feels that if granted I would most likely win in court. If granted However I may be tempted to suck it up and go for option 2.
So there you go. From an actual solicitor.
In scenario 3, what happens to your ccj? A couple of hundred quid is neither here or there (although could be considered expensive compared to the original charge), but having the ccj (decree) hanging around would worry me.
In scenario 3, what happens to your ccj? A couple of hundred quid is neither here or there (although could be considered expensive compared to the original charge), but having the ccj (decree) hanging around would worry me.
I still have it, nothing changes. If I pay it off my credit rating will improve but thr ccj remains. Only way to get rid of that is if the sherrif grants a recall
How much was the original fine if it had been paid within the two weeks (or so) having parked where the car shouldn't be ?
I managed to get one myself having parked 20ft the wrong side of a beech access this summer on holiday. Missed the 'residents only' sign. Got caught minutes before I left. Paid it same day and got on with my holiday. £35.
So there you go. From an actual solicitor
Well at least you listened to one bit of advice. you got legal representation .you may not have paid for it but you spoke to an actual solicitor and got non internet barrister facts.
There is another option; find where the directors live and hammer frozen sausages in to their lawns.
How much was the original fine if it had been paid within the two weeks (or so) having parked where the car shouldn't be ?
120 quid I believe.
Important point on option 1. Even if I lose in court, and a ccj is awarded against me, I have 30 days to pay before it goes on my record
So realistically, other than the chance of a very small additional expenses claim for option 3, I'm going to be no worse off than I am now.
£120 is a bit of a piss take
Agreed. If it had been 35 quid I'd have probably paid howver at the time neither me nor my partner had 120 quid going spare.
Fortunately my financial situation has improved significantly since then so costs (within reason) are no longer the deciding factor.
Worst case scenario, according to the lawyer ill end up a couple of hundred quid worse off than I am now. Happy to take that risk on to try to clear my ccj
Shouldn't have been more than £100, reduced to £60 if paid promptly.
I'm sure you know this given your background but getting a successful outcome to your recall petition won't clear your credit record automatically, you'll probably have to chase down all the credit agencies that have it on there and actively seek to have it amended. They're very good at getting the black marks added, less good at removing them!
you'll probably have to chase down all the credit agencies that have it on there and actively seek to have it amended. They're very good at getting the black marks added, less good at removing them
Yep. They'll need to take it off, but I'm sure it'll take alot of pestering. That said equinity we're happy to put a note on my file yesterday stating this was being disputed so maybe not.
My lawyer is requesting the court docs the day it reopens to see what's happening and if there was a reason I didn't receive it.
Given the amount of time and effort this has taken you, wouldn’t it have been easier to pay?
Given the amount of time and effort this has taken you, wouldn’t it have been easier to pay?
That ship sailed months ago and I get the feeling tpbiker would go through all this again rather than do the sensible thing if it happens again, cos he's RIGHT!
My lawyer is requesting the court docs the day it reopens to see what's happening
I think what's happening has already happened.
and if there was a reason I didn't receive it.
Doubtful. If you received the first letter I would imagine you are very likely to have had the others delivered also.
(Plus the court does not actually need proof that the notices have actually been delivered as this is assumed after a period of time.
But you probs knew that)
Let's see if the sheriff thinks I'm am arse before we start the online name calling..
Says the man who started the thread by calling car parking companies absolute scum
Just pay it ffs
My lawyer is requesting the court docs the day it reopens to see what's happening
I think what's happening has already happened.and if there was a reason I didn't receive it.
Doubtful. If you received the first letter I would imagine you are very likely to have had the others delivered also.
(Plus the court does not actually need proof that the notices have actually been delivered as this is assumed after a period of time.
But you probs knew that)
for docs which actually need formally served in Scottish civil cases an assumption of delivery from ordinary post is not accepted. The rules for service in Scotland are tougher than England and require not only some confirmation of delivery but specific text on the outside of the envelope to reduce the risk it is ignored. It’s not impossible that someone mistyped 54 Main St rather than 45 Main St - or copies someone else’s address entirely.
Given the amount of time and effort this has taken you, wouldn’t it have been easier to pay?
it probably would - but having highlighted that he wasn’t the driver and had no obligation to tell them who was (and therefore who their contract was with) he could reasonably expect that if they wished to pursue him then he would get formal documents and could decide to pay at that stage.
Being a belligerent **** probably won’t help him - but if parking companies want to enforce stuff they need to follow the law - or install barriers to prevent mistakes; their model is based on intimidating people who make simple errors into paying up.
their model is based on intimidating people who make simple errors into paying up.
Because if they don't people won't bother, as this thread proves. We get the parking enforcement we deserve.