[Closed] Private ownership of firearms

Banning motorbikes would make the world better tho - it would lead to less motorbike killings.

Banning guns would make the world better tho - it would lead to less gun killings.

nope only criminals would have guns, and that would be stupid..

it's an official 'T-J thread'.
i'm not even going to ask for verification because it's beyond question.

Don Simon
Are the pheasants you are talking about the one-and-the-same ringed neck pheasants we have here in the US?

Yup - they are . I used to hand feed them, Tame and habituated to humans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Come on, we are behind Belgium!

Junky -

http://www.gwct.org.uk/research__surveys/species_research/birds/pheasant/249.asp

Zulu is using the red grouse to try to avoid the main point which is that most birds shot are bred for shooting and are not wild.

No, I'm using the example of re grouse, because you said that black grouse were the only bird that was not cage bred

I could have use the example of Woodcock, Snipe, several species of Geese, most Ducks, Pigeon, Rook, Crow, a fair old number of Grey Partridge shoots...

So, either you were lying, or, erm, talking out of your arse - I think people can draw their own conclusions as to which 😀

Neal- are you really that incapable of reading?

No need to ever shoot birds tho - most of the birds that are shot have been raised in cages and release shortly before they are shot.

Around here for sure don simon. No question at all. Its a huge industry rearing birds to be shot. You see them in their cages when out and about and you see the empty cages at shooting season.

CFH round here the only thing not cage reared will be black grouse [b][u]I think[/u][/b] - everything else is cage reared and I am sure most of the birds you shot would have been as well.

apart from I forgot to include red grouse it actually all pretty close to right

read Druidh s link or have a look around yourself -

Zulu - there are the three quotes on it and according to a defra piece i looked up most of the other birds are farmed as well.

It seems in this thread The Gun is the MacGuffin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

assuming the thread will one day be made into a film and all the usual egos are played by lithe good looking actors.

There are endless types of people who do all sorts of things for pleasure.

Never killed a grouse or anything else for that matter on my mountian bike yet..there was an incident with a vole at Kirroughtree once but I think it survived...

Am totally oppose to the authoritarian left and right BTW but not sure that has any relevance

im going to hell for what i did to that bunny

TJ:

CFH round here the [b]only thing not cage reared[/b] will be black grouse I think - everything else is cage reared and I am sure most of the birds you shot would have been as well.

Ratty:

I could have use the example of Woodcock, Snipe, several species of Geese, most Ducks, Pigeon, Rook, Crow, a fair old number of Grey Partridge shoots...

TJ Again:

apart from I forgot to include red grouse it actually all pretty close to right

Yeah - pretty close TJ 😆

Neal- are you really that incapable of reading?

I am fine thanks. I read you start off by saying "Most"

Then reduce that to "Some"

Then say "well at least round here they are"

Seems like you weren't too sure of your original statement.

Although maybe my reading isnt so good ?

Because I'm still struggling to find you justify this statement with any facts or figures ??

Banning guns would make the world better tho - [b]it would lead to less gun killings.[/b]

Don't ask me a question back.

Just prove what you are saying is true.

16 pages and you haven't produced any evidence yet.

Yes Zulu - pretty close - after all most of those birds can and are reared for shooting

Never killed a grouse or anything else for that matter on my mountian bike yet..there was an incident with a vole at Kirroughtree once but I think it survived...

Am totally oppose to the authoritarian left and right BTW but not sure that has any relevance

It doesn't matter if you have killed anything. Not a jot.

Secondly, the relevance is that some people are suggesting banning things, not just finding them distasteful but actually banning them which presumably comes with force of law. Force that would be exerted against people who just want to pursue their hobbies. Authoritarians love that shit.

I killed a rat with a spade two weeks ago neither for food nor fun but self preservation.

Woodcock, Snipe, several species of Geese, most Ducks, Pigeon, Rook, Crow, a fair old number of Grey Partridge shoots...

Yes Zulu - pretty close - after all most of those birds can and are reared for shooting

I'll make this simple for you TJ, so you stop making even more of an idiot of yourself...

[b]No, they are not[/b]

got that?

What about badger baiting then torminalis? Is it OK to have hobbies that rely on deliberate suffering of animals?

I killed a rat with a spade two weeks ago neither for food nor fun but self preservation.

I have a long standing bet with a friend that I would kill a rat with a spade and eat it. Not sure I will ever deliver on that now.

Yes but surely hobbies have to be lawful and have the support of the majority of the public in a democratic society?

lots of stuff are banned like cock fighting, badger baiting, hare coursing and dog fights .....folk liked those as hobbies too - it is pointless saying about banning as we all agree with banning stuff we are only discussing where and why the line is drawn and yes some will loose a hobby as with the examples above. Lets just stick to that rather than slurs about authoritarianism etc

What about badger baiting

Loses argument - changes subject 😉

Is it OK to have hobbies that rely on deliberate suffering of animals?

Like eating meat?

Listen ,I killed the medium sized rat that I caught in a cage/trap. The "daddy rat" scared the shit out of me from 50 feet and a storey up and is still at large,bigger than a medium sized cat,I kid you not well gnarrreld with a tail like a rope.Eek!

😀 You noticed too Z-11. 😆

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Like eating meat?

SHENANIGANS! Meat eating doesn't "rely on the deliberate suffering of animals". Though, cows that've been slowly tortured to death do taste better in a curry.

Do you know how may people want to go Badger baiting? Sod all. That is not to say we don't kill loads of brockers though, apparently they are planning a huge cull this year in some parts of the country.

But, if for some reason someone did want to do some culling of their own and they wanted to do it in a cruel and unusual manner then good luck to them. I am not going to change their mind, imprisonment or attempts at rehabilitation are unlikely to work. What would probably be most effective is a culture of dissaproval, social isolation and eventual extinction. If it is popular enough to survive then who the hell are you or I to decide that it should be banned?

[pushes on into enemy ground ;o)]

I shot a crab once with a webley tempest air pistol. My parent's neighbours fence is still riddled with .22 holes from shooting random targets that my 13 year old mind thought would explode in slow motion. Mostly ski youghurt pots. If my 13 year old self had a glock 9mm it woulda been carnage - that'd go through a pot noodle no probs. I really like the idea of shooting stuff and watching it explode, not alive things,cos I wouldn't like to kill something. just things. Explody things. I think I watch Mythbusters too much though. mm.. Kari Byron.

Judging by that. I'd say any gun holder should have more serious mental health tests.

SIX SIX SIX THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST!

Bugger, 667...here's Maiden anyway:

Zulu - your army stuff - were you in G4 / logistics ( whatever that is)

the change of response is a response to this

Secondly, the relevance is that some people are suggesting banning things, not just finding them distasteful but actually banning them which presumably comes with force of law. Force that would be exerted against people who just want to pursue their hobbies. Authoritarians love that shit.

he deserves much of what is being said to him but really you opposing him are getting as bad

[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcF_uupHJmrLqTZ4qKXGBEIg5ts7EBsbqlCgEB3ng9w2rhMXqS7vSt1eUI [/img]

TJ have you seriously spent the last 8 hrs or so on here defending your position/opinion. Fair enough, respect your opinion, but GET OUT it's windier in here that outside!

Loses argument - changes subject

and again 😆

zulu - want to answer that please - were you G4 / logistics?

Taxi for TJ

Is that a TJuana taxi?

Don't know mate, but this one of the flockers that made the mistake of landing on the roof.

Thanks--not exactly the same bird,but like TJ said, probably close cousins. Does look like a nice roasting or stew bird. Ones here in the US are a bunch of wiley ****ers though---as a kid, wasted a lot of good shotgun ammo punching holes in the sky.

If Zulu would answer that I would know if I had to apologise to him or not 🙁

TJ - if you had read what I posted, you'd see that I was in the Royal Corps of Signals,

which by its very nature isn't a logistics role.... - I was in the underwater knife fighting team for 49 para, third class balcony specialist 😉

I did read it but the slang made no sense to me hence the asking for clarification. The guy that put the fantasist in his place cannot remember the name but thinks its was a logistics person and thus although it was Ratty in my memory I will have to say that I could well have this wrong and therefore need to apologise for saying that Zulu fantasised about his military career.

So - as my certainty has turned to doubt I must say sorry to Zulu for accusing him of embellishing his military career earlier on on this thread.

Ouch that hurt 🙂

I'm steering even further away from Zulu-Eleven in underwater conditions from now on. Good on ya TJ.

Accepted in good grace 8)

Ta

I was in the underwater knife fighting team for 49 para

I've got the strangest boner. 😐

Hang on DD - I'll carve you an extra hole in the pumpkin

[img] [/img]

*fap*

I think Glock 31 is a bit trigger happy as it does not have a safety but I like it for it's simplicity with easy strip down to 3-4 pieces for cleaning. Otherwise if you are a traditionalist then go for the classic 1911 ... Yes, yes, 1911 is a messy to assemble and yes, yes it only takes 7 cartridge but it's a classic.

So, have we established who's the most butchest, macho, rufty tufty brave hunter/military hero/expert on weapons yet then?

Och. For what it's worth, I've read pretty much the whole thread in between actually doing some work.

My brother in law's family are a bit posh and have a shooting estate in the borders. They only provide pheasants and they are free range (pheasants, not BIL's family) - my understanding is that this is the norm in areas where there is room for them to roam. Yes, they hang about near the hoppers so are easy enough to find, but they are pretty swift once airborne.

At this stage in the game, I don't doubt that anyone will give a tinker's toss for a new post, but I won't let that stop me.

My stepdad, who lives on Skye has a few shotguns - he uses them to kill rabbits and then he and my mother eat them. They don't make clothes out of the skins, or string their banjos with their tendons, but they do manage a pretty good stew.

On the whole, I agree with the sentiment that less guns in society means less holes in humans. Bogger the stats and the sources. It's just common sense. The second you give householders leave to defend themselves with guns, everyone will have one. And that is the beginning of the end.

All that said, I do like a bit of post-apocalyptic literature, and the guys who survive always have guns. So perhaps those who have disparaged gun ownership might like to review their position when the GM zombies / cannabilistic soldiers / triffids come calling?

At this stage in the game, I don't doubt that anyone will give a tinker's toss for a new post, but I won't let that stop me.

I do, it is making a very long night shift slightly less tedious 🙂

" the sentiment that less guns in society means less holes in humans." I'd imagine that's about it then. g'night. Coulda said that at the start!

"so I appropriated it and set about wiping out the local songbird population."

I killed pots of yoghurt. Have you ever seen a pot of 1987 ski black cherry yoghurt explode in the pale moonlight? it is most satisfying aged 13. speshly the splat on the fence. Then you move on. I'd imagine the death of a poor songbird a boring, sad and underwhelming sight.

Oh it was. One bluetit slowly succumbed and swung from a branch, upside down. I kid you not. Another unpleasant memory was a seagull shot with a GAT (crap air pistol that could be bought by 10 year olds for £14.99, which was three kids combined pocket money). It took darts and the seagull was its first unfortunate victim.

But the bastard wouldn't die. We had to chase it round my mate's garden as it squawked its last pathetic cries (presumably to its lifelong partner) before standing on it. The noise attracted my pal's mother who stood horrified as we beat the poor thing to death with our feet. At that point, the only idea was that the stricken bird should be put out of its misery as quickly as possible. With our feet.

These days, believe it or not, I subscribe monthly to PETA and the RSPCA.

ah well mate, such is life! it's a growing phase when you are young.

Ski yoghuts though - they were carefully monitered by my Mum. Empty tin cans filled with water were fair game, but God forbid we should waste food 😯

Not sure I'm adding anything useful to this discussion other than entertaining higthepig and possibly formulating ideas for a novel along the lines of [i]Black Swan Green[/i], so off to bed now.

poor little birds and poor yoghurt.

Not sure I'm adding anything useful to this discussion other than entertaining higthepig and possibly formulating ideas for a novel along the lines of Black Swan Green, so off to bed now.

Yea, bugger off and leave me alone, suppose I'll have to go and surf the Daily Mail site for time killing entertainment now.

Christ - is this a new record? 700 posts in 10 hours?

Have you solved it yet?

And in answer to the OP: No.

Atherton the peterlee gun killer had had his guns taken off him in 2008 and returned later.

He owned 6 guns - 3 shotguns and 3 other guns.

So clearly the procedures are robust and strong when they allow someone who has been reported to the police after an incident involving threats to have his guns returned. Now 3 people are dead.

One definition of insanity or maybe just plain stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

700

I thought it was 4 people that were dead?

Atherton the peterlee gun killer had had his guns taken off him in 2008 and returned later.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/03/horden-shootings-killer-gun-licences

also on the BBC

A man who killed his partner and two of her family members before turning a shotgun on himself had had his weapons temporarily confiscated by police in 2008 amid concerns over his mental state, it has emerged.

Michael Atherton, 42, had his six weapons removed after his family in the former mining community of Horden, County Durham, expressed concerns that he had threatened to shoot himself three years ago and police revoked his gun licence. But the weapons were returned to him after he successfully appealed to police to overturn the decision.

Thanks for such a quick reply, the articles I read hadn't mentioned that. It also mentions that

"It was one person's word against another," he said. "If there was no grounds for applying for the revocation of a firearms licence the guns would be returned to the firearms licence holder."

Yeah right - there is no way on earth he should have had his guns returned to him.

Yeah right - there is no way on earth he should have had his guns returned to him.

Already said in the post directly above...

Hindsight, on the other hand, is a beautiful thing.

I don't think anyone would argue that a bad decision has been made in the case of Mike Atherton.

Sue_W - Member
Blimus - 15 pages of this

I guess the only thing I have to say is that there was a tragic combination of alcohol, mental health problems, and an available weapon (and to be honest it could have been a knife or any other suitable implement) which has led to the terrible death of three women. Personally, I'm just sorry for such a loss of life, the sadness that must be now being felt by their family and friends, and the fear that must have been experienced by the other people there.

Anyway ... as you were ...

Amen to this.

Amidst the (rightful) furore over the Teesside deaths, there are a significant number of incidents every year when a family is destroyed by one individual. Sometimes it's stabbings (we've seen that this weekend), sometimes strangling, arson, a hammer....if someone loses it and wants to kill their family, they will do it. There's a reasonable argument that says that if they've access to guns, the perpetrator might add to the death toll, though no-one would sensibly argue that said lunatic wouldn't commit a volent crime anyway.

To move the debate on, here's what I suggest might tighten things up without being silly.

- Firearms owners to be encouraged to hold weapons at a gun club/police station/somewhere secure. If you want a permit to have a gun at home, then annual inspection of premises, annual relicencing should be required.

- Random inspections by police of premises. If they turn up and find guns improperly stored, licence revoked.

- Psychiatric evaluation before licence issued. Don't know how practical this is, but it would weed out the very small number of madmen out there. Not 100% effective, obviously, but better than doing nothing.

- Suspension of licence for anyone even cautioned for a violent offence

As someone who's currently in the process of getting a shotgun, I'd be perfectly happy with these additional restrictions if it would reduce the number of deaths, though in reality I think it would make not one jot of difference.

After all these pages, my apologies for not being angry with anyone, or trying to score points. I'm sure normal service will be resurmed shortly....

Yeah right - there is no way on earth he should have had his guns returned to him.

Are you speaking asa medical professional who is expert in the assessment of mental health issues now TJ?

I guess you've seen his medical records?

Blimey TJ pls tell me it didn't take 18 pages and over 700 posts to get to this point? It was clear yesterday that a system that works in the main failed in the Atherton case. Such is life and the same thing happens in all walks of life including rogues in your profession who can sidestep procedures and end up harming people.

The extent to which it is hindsight or specific failure of the police force in question is something that we don't know but better placed people will find out I guess.

In the meantime, lets move on from the classic Daily Wail/Radio 5live need to respond/over-react to daily news. Your version of the Chinese water torture is not going to change minds or win an argument however long you keep it up.

Go for a ride, update your CV or do something else that is useful.

- Firearms owners to be encouraged to hold weapons at a gun club/police station/somewhere secure. If you want a permit to have a gun at home, then annual inspection of premises, annual relicencing should be required.

- Random inspections by police of premises. If they turn up and find guns improperly stored, licence revoked.

- Psychiatric evaluation before licence issued. Don't know how practical this is, but it would weed out the very small number of manmen out there. Not 100% effective, obviously, but better than doing nothing.

- Suspension of licence for anyone even cautioned for a violent offence

I'm happy with the above, to be honest. Police should be able to inspect where guns are stored (and ammunition, of course), and more frequent checks and licence intervals would be a welcome addition.

How many other lawful gun owners have had their privacy invaded because of nosey neighbours that had a slight beef?
Power to the people.
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4719364.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4719364.stm[/url]

Added to that list that Shootyheart quotes should be compulsory counselling for the violent fantasies that a gun owner probably has.

Hypnotherapy sessions.
CBT.
NLP.

All can help.

Go for a ride, update your CV or do something else that is useful.

Or write to your SMP and the Home Secretary if you feel this strongly about it, or start an online petition.

As I tried to articulate, albeit obliquely above, arguing with people on here who a) couldn't care less, b) will argue with you for "fun" isn't going to make any difference to anyone, in the time you spent pressing F5 to see if anyone had responded you could have done all of the above and gone for a ride.

In other words, get a life.

zulu - they knew he was mentally unstable and he killed 3 other people - of course he should never have had his guns returned to him.

so long as people are allowed to keep guns at home then these incidents will continue. Its not that the system works in the main but failed in this case its that the system clearly does not work or else we would not see repeated killings with legally held guns.

It has happened before and it will continue to happen so long as people are allowed to keep guns and ammunition at home.

If yo think the freedom to own guns means multiple deaths every year is a price worth paying ten so be it. I do not. I believe the rights of people not to be killed by guns far outweighs the right to hold guns - except as said for the very few people who need guns to shoot vermin.

I prefer the right to life over the right to shoot.

Sometimes it's stabbings (we've seen that this weekend), sometimes strangling, arson, a hammer....if someone loses it and wants to kill their family, they will do it. There's a reasonable argument that says that if they've access to guns, the perpetrator might add to the death toll, though no-one would sensibly argue that said lunatic wouldn't commit a volent crime anyway.

I think it is significant that the seemingly increasingly common massacre type events couldn't take place without guns.

Someone may be able to stab or gas their immediate family, but they can't walk into the middle of Hungerford or onto an island and take out tens of people that way.

I think there is a grain of truth in what TJ has been saying in that there is an unhealthy fascination with guns and gun culture in our society and a blase attitude towards it.

Someone may be able to stab or gas their immediate family, but they can't walk into the middle of Hungerford or onto an island and take out tens of people that way.

If you have to revert to whattaboutary you've lost the argument.

after all most of those birds can and are reared for shooting

I've only been pheasant shooting a few times in the UK and they certainly weren't cage reared. I'm more used to Duck hunting in the US where they most definitly aren't farmed!!

Not sure why people can't see that this is better than having thousands of chickens / cows / pigs factory farmed in appalling living conditions though? A single shot is much better than electricution, throat slitting and seeing your mate in front of you take a bolt to the head just before you do!

zulu - they knew he was mentally unstable

As someone who works in mental health, I would have thought you knew better than this.

is everyone suffering form depression now to be categorised as 'mentally unstable'?

as I understand it, his appeal against certificate suspension was supported by both his wife and GP

do you know his mental health status better than them?

You've proved the point that I made several pages ago - that there is a stigma attached to mental health issues, and the way that they are handled, even by people claiming to be experts in the area like yourself, only deters people from getting help.

Anthropomorphism from a shootist. I've seen it all now. 🙂

But they could drive a car through a crowded High St, no?
Where there's a will, there's a way.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692562/Birmingham-riots-murder-investigation-after-three-killed-in-crash-during-night-of-violence.html