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I had a great state education as did the other half... Moved to the countryside from inner city Manchester partly for better schools.
Ended up sending my daughter here... http://www.knutsfordguardian.co.uk/news/11065114.display/ which was a massive mistake
Tried for two years to make up the difference with Kumon which was good but not a rounded education and it's a lot of work!
By the time we decided "enough is enough" everyone else had taken any spare places nearby... So we now have to pay for private education. Spent 3 months absolutely ****ing fuming with the shit teachers who had hidden in a rural school to take the piss and got sacked on a full pension... But it all worked out in the end. She's very happy and the school is great.
My biggest advice is "do what you think is right. Ignore anyone else. Don't beat yourself up about the choices"
20-30% of pupils are on some form of financial assistance - so not as out of reach as some like to pretend.
Nor is it as affordable as you would like to suggest.
My own personal politics mean I could never choose it and turned it down form myself on a full scholarship.
Generally , as money matters in a capitalist society, it gives a better outcome, if it did not no one would pay for it. Its still not the right fit for everyone.
Move
Things to bear in mind, unless it has changed in recent years.
Teachers at private schools don't necessarily have to be qualified teachers, this applied to secondary, not sure about primary.
You could get a superbly intelligent physicist teaching physics, with no teaching qualifications, which doesn't mean much until kids with more specific learning needs come along.
Different private schools have different outlooks on discipline as well. If the Sheikhs 6 kids are being ****s in classes, but he is going to send another half ddozen to the school, you don't kick them out or rock the boat.
Other private schools are very strict and do wonderful things.
I currently have two students leaving us in June to head to the UK for IGCSE at a school which is costing their dad 36kGBP per year each boarding plus all the extras - but the results for that school is hugely impressive. 100% a*-c IGCSE 97%A/A* 91%A*
As someone who has worked in both camps there is no perfect answer. There are fantastic state schools, just as there are less than satisfactory privates. And it's always worth remembering that not all private schools are equal...
What I will say is that some of the opportunities that arise from a private education just are not there from a state education ( and whether that is right or wrong is a debate for another day), but any opportunity has to be taken by the pupils, so support at home is still as essential.
If you are seriously considering the private option I'd recommend visiting as many as possible, listen to the children / staff taking the tours, and picture your children there, not yourself. There are so many facets to school life it's hard to make the right choice, and the financial aspect for the parent is just one of them.
It's a huge commitment and investment for both parent and child, but the potential for the children can be huge.
A
s a state-educated teacher in a state school whose kids are going to a state school, I think all kids should go to a good state school. But I would, wouldn't I?
So do I but I wouldnt criticise anyone for making a decision that is best for their child. To answer the op is it worth it well the stats say yes an emphatic yes. Privately educated people earn more even if they have the same degree as a state educated kid.
Teachers as state schools dont need to be qualified now either Quirrel.
In my humble opinion state education is currently an underfunded, beurocratic mess of epic proportions with the emphasis on testing testing testing and not learning and its getting worse.
A huge amount depends on the alternative. If you've got a good state school (maybe grammar school) locally, then that's a no-brainer. If you have some sink comprehensive, going private may be the best long-term investment you can make in your child's future. I've seen both cases.
Some of the weakest teachers I ever worked with went off and found jobs in private schools. I suppose they might have done better there. The local HMC boarding school to me bends over backwards for students with any sort of learning difficulty, psychological testing, extra times in exams, asking for exam papers to be remarked, and the kids do well. I'm not quite so sure how well they'd cope without all that support.
Most parents justify sending their kids to these places because they're too slow, too average, too bright to have their needs catered for. I taught in state schools in working class areas which managed to produce kids who went on to be professionals, academics, lawyers, medics and one girl I taught went on to be an M.P. after a PPE degree. They were also pretty good at spotting learning difficulties and putting in place a raft of measure to help facilitate progress. I'd go down the extra tuition route if I was concerned.
@donald - lol, no, I was not in the top flight for English by any means.
It was not one of my favoured, or favourite subjects..
Make of that what you will.
The parents here sending children to private school are a mixed bunch, there is some fear of the CfE and what it means, but I can't help thinking that there a large component of keeping up with the Jones' (local farmer/builder is down that route), prestige, and almost a fashion. It's no' cheap though. Eye watering.
I think one of the biggest plus points for private is the quantity and quality of sport available.
We have two children and I'm not sure even with are very good incomes we could justify the cost. We prefer to give them as much support at home as we can - after all education isn't just about the school. Life experiences too, trips out relevant to their current topics etc.
We're both state educated and have done well, whereas friends who were privately educated at great expense to their parents, haven't done measurably better. University is about the life experience it gives as much as the degree. Regarding trades, why the heck not if they want to, I've not got a practical bone in my body, despite my dad being in a trade, but I do agree to give them every opportunity at the right time for them.
We're lucky that we have a great primary school that they go to. As it happens it was also my school, but my wife's is equally as good. We're very lucky in that respect of where we happen to live. I'm also a governor at their school, and yes it has issues but on the whole they get a very balanced education. If we were spending say £30k/ pa on their educations I'd be disappointed if they weren't Oxbridge qualified medics or other professions at the end of their academic careers, as isn't that what we'd expect for the amount of money we'd end-up spending over the length of their time in education.
I would also add that, at least in Scotland, there is an impact weighting down the way for eligibility to get into Scottish universities, further down the line - i.e. that a given child of exam results X from a state school, which doesn't get such good results, will be weighted far higher than one from a 'good' state school and certainly one from a private school..
If we were spending say £30k/ pa on their educations I'd be disappointed if they weren't Oxbridge qualified medics or other professions at the end of their academic careers
Is that really the point of education 😉 ?
Oxbridge is not for everyone, so bizarre universal goal IMO.
How about well educated and happy?
£15k a year to go private?
**** that. You could import a smart kid from Asia for a lot less.
I put both my kids through private school and don't regret it, despite the expense. My wife is a teacher and has taught at comprehensives as well as private schools (she taught at the school my kids went to for most of the time they were there) so we're well aware of the differences. While there are of course variations in teacher quality the private schools can pick and choose a bit more and are less tolerant of failing teachers which helps - however what helps more is that the kids and their parents are pretty much all focused on a successful outcome which means there tend to me a lot less discipline problems getting in the way of the teaching. In some of the state schools my wife worked at it seemed at times like her job was more about surviving the day than it was about being able to teach as there were so many problems.
There are some excellent state schools however - we moved house a couple of years after my first kid started private school and the local primary and secondary there were both very good. If we hadn't already made the decision to go the private route we'd definitely have considered sending them to those local schools. Partly because the schools are good the house prices in that area are quite high though, so it's not necessarily the cheap option!
£15k a year to go private?
That seems par for the course here in London where my wife teaches now, but in Edinburgh the school my kids went to was closer to half that.
You should read the book Freakonomics, there's a section in that dedicated to the statistics surrounding private education. Bottom line is that paying for private education does not improve your child's results, the biggest factors affecting your child's performance is their home life and upbringing.
One word: Expensive.
Haven't read all this thread, so apologies if this has been said already, but when doing your financial calculations, make sure you factor in private school fee inflation.
I worked at a private school for a maternity cover once and if you can't keep up with the fees, you are out. They may be registered charities, but they are ruthless and it is ultimately a monetary transaction.
You should read the book Freakonomics, there's a section in that dedicated to the statistics surrounding private education. Bottom line is that paying for private education does not improve your child's results, the biggest factors affecting your child's performance is their home life and upbringing.
Sure it's a point of view, but just because someone wrote it in a book doesn't necessarily make it true. My wife and I both went to shit comprehensives and decided to put our kids to a good private school. My daughter might have done just as well at a decent comprehensive but in my son's case I think it's very, very likely that his outcome was significantly better from the private school then it would have been from even a decent state school. From a shit comprehensive like the one I went to I think it very unlikely he'd have achieved the necessary grades to get to a decent university.
Indeed wiganer. The MOST important factor, although that shouldn't extend to doing their course work for them. A great benefit of boarding is kids HAVE to do their own work!!
I worked at a private school for a maternity cover once and if you can't keep up with the fees, you are out. They may be registered charities, but they are ruthless and it is ultimately a monetary transaction.
Without exception the private schools my wife has worked at had a fund available to cover kids who's parents were struggling. A couple of my sons friends were only able to complete their time at the school due to the family foundation covering their costs - including all the costs of trips etc. as well as the fees. Ok they might have been less inclined to do so if the kids had been in primary 3 at the time instead of year 4 or so of secondary, but it definitely wasn't uncommon and there certainly wasn't a "boot them out the door if they miss one payment" attitude you're implying.
Sure it's a point of view, but just because someone wrote it in a book doesn't necessarily make it true. My wife and I both went to shit comprehensives and decided to put our kids to a good private school. My daughter might have done just as well at a decent comprehensive but in my son's case I think it's very, very likely that his outcome was significantly better from the private school then it would have been from even a decent state school. From a shit comprehensive like the one I went to I think it very unlikely he'd have achieved the necessary grades to get to a decent university.
Read the book and form your own opinion. It's written by two fairly smart academics based on evidence, so not really a point of view, more a representation of findings.
Privately educated people earn more even if they have the same degree as a state educated kid.
I'm sure that is true
But correlation isn't causation.There are alot of other factors at work here
To the OP
1. What are your options looking like for Secondary Schools. That would be a bigger concern to me than finishing Primary
2. What does junior think. My car share budy was sure she'd get her son into the local private school free on a rugby scholarship. But he declined the offer. But the local Secondary is pretty good here
3. Have you spoken to the current head. The supply teacher thing is a pain. Just ask what they expect for next year. They may have already appointed an amazing teacher for your sons class from next year. Or decided that they'll give the group to an experienced reliable teacher as they know the group was messed about this year
Any way all the best and I hope you find a solution
Indeed wiganer. The MOST important factor, although that shouldn't extend to doing their course work for them. A great benefit of boarding is kids HAVE to do their own work!!
At Boarding School the teachers can do it instead!
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1489700/Teacher-did-Prince-Harrys-exam-paintings.html ]link[/url]
My personal experience, I went to state schools until 13. I was heading the wrong way, in the wrong crowds, getting into trouble and not interested in school or learning in the slightest.
I discussed the situation with my parents and I was lucky enough to get into a local independent school in the last year that the government offered assistant places and was also offered a part scholarship.
The school slowly but surely transformed me. It was not an instant fix, but the teachers and staff were more willing and able to spend time and by the time I entered 6th form I was loving it.
I would say that as a broad generalisation the teachers are better in independent schools. The pay and conditions are usually better, which attracts the best teachers.
The options for sport & arts was far superior, although this is only comparing 2 particular schools. Instead of having the choice of rugby, rugby or rugby I was able to pick and choose from anything I wanted to do and pupils were able to start new clubs or sports if they wanted.
The decision is very much dependant on the individual person and the area, but if I am able to put any children we have through an independent education, then I will bend over backwards to make it a possibility. The one caveat is that I wouldn't let them board until 13 at the earliest if boarding becomes the only option.
The state system labelled him as thick and having a poor attitude
Just to clarify - I don't think the SYSTEM labelled him thick, just that particular school.
I went to a private secondary school, can't say I particularly liked it. Sometimes it's better in life to be happy.
The main reason that private schools often to better than state schools is because there's an entrance exam - if you take the most able kids in an area at exams at age 11, it's quite likely that a large number of those will do well at age 16 regardless of the quality of teaching they receive.
Read the book and form your own opinion.
No thanks - I've no need as I've 20 years of personal experience to draw on. Are you sure you're read it because what little I've seen about it on the web seems to contradict the results you're suggesting. For example you said that it says the biggest impact on a child's education is upbringing etc. but the book actually contains a chapter called: "Chapter 5: The negligible effects of good parenting on education"
It's written by two fairly smart academics based on evidence, so not really a point of view, more a representation of findings.
One academic and one writer. It also doesn't sound like it's a serious academic work and there is a lot of critics of it, including that their findings were actually caused by statistical errors in their evaluation.
Sounds like a bag of shit to be honest.
epicsteve - Member
Read the book and form your own opinion.
No thanks - I've no need as I've 20 years of personal experience to draw on....Sounds like a bag of shit to be honest.
Sounds like good experience there then.
In my version BTW, Ch 5 is "What makes a perfect parent?" Are there different versions?
Among the several pages in the book is the pretty simple observation:"a child whose parents are highly educated typically does well in school: no surprise there. A family with a lot of schooling tends to value schooling."
Some "shit"!?!? 😯
Teachers as state schools dont need to be qualified now either Quirrel.
How to devalue a profession in one go.
Talk to mr gove.
Some "shit"!?!?
You paid good money for that?
Without exception the private schools my wife has worked at had a fund available to cover kids who's parents were struggling
Cool so i could send my kid for one term the stop paying and they will keep him for the next 11 years...good to know.
Whilst they will help out the odd struggling case its pretty obvious its financial model requires students who pay the fees which is basically what the poster said.
No thanks - I've no need
If I understand you correctly you are telling me you dont need to read a book with findings as you have skimmed some stuff about it on the internet [ everything on the internet is true eh] and then criticised it for academic rigour and then used some anecdotes/personal experience to beat it.
I have not read the book so I cannot comment on it.
Teachers as state schools dont need to be qualified now either Quirrel.
In academies and free schools
The LEA schools still need QTS
Epic Steve, re getting booted from private schools if the money runs out, admittedly I only have experience of one school, so I imagine it depends where you send the kids. But if the family goes bankrupt, which is not uncommon, then there is no possibility of the kids for being able to stay for more than a year. The other parents would be asking, why are we then paying XX amount a year?!
My pennies worth: I attended a "failing" state school on a council estate, but I succeeded, ending up with a PhD from Oxford. The private school sector gets good results because they churn out the coursework, revising it again and again until it is A star.
I would be in favour of bringing back grammar schools, but I wouldn't want to start another war on this here forum!
The LEA schools still need QTS
How many of them are there now?
It's strange that currently I am recruiting for a couple of teaching positions, and I wouldn't touch anybody who isn't qualified. Most decent international schools won't. The mickey mouse ones are a different matter.
Yet the UK where I look to recruit from, is allowing schools to hire unqualified/certified teachers.
madness
PS I'm after KS1 EYFS, KS3/4 English and an Art teacher if you know of any that are interested in working overseas.
Saves money doesnt it. Makes it easier to get a body in front of the class.
How many of them are there now?
Most of them ( just less than 21% of all schools are academies, as of September 2014). But its skewed as Its primaries that are mainly in LE control and they have are smaller
Not that it matters I was clarifying a point
Saves money doesnt it. Makes it easier to get a body in front of the class.
Colleges don't have to employ qualified teachers but we do some times. We don't think it saves us any money and if it did we still wouldn't use unqualified to staff to save money
However some times the only person we can find to fill the post is unqualified
Many thanks for all the replies, you've given me plenty to think about. Appointment made with local prep school about a sports scholarship, I'm also going to speak to the headmaster of his current school to see if I can get any reassurances about the future there.
I'm sure I'll be back with more questions soon, sorry!
Colleges don't have to employ qualified teachers but we do some times. We don't think it saves us any money and if it did we still wouldn't use unqualified to staff to save money
Oops
Colleges don't have to employ qualified teachers but we do some times, employ unqualified teachers. We don't think it saves us any money and if it did we still wouldn't use unqualified to staff to save money
To attempt to answer the OP.
Both my kids go to state school (currently 16 and 13).
I would look ahead to secondary school for your child.
I took a view that if the secondary school achieved at least SOME top grades and had GOOD/OUTSTANDING Ofsted then it would be OK.
If my children are not in those top grades then I blame myself and them for not taking advantage of the resources available.
I am also a governor at local school and its a good school. With more funding it would be so much better. Our education system needs more money.
I have close friends who recently pulled their child from a private school as it was not working for their child. Said child now goes to an outstanding state school and is much happier and flourishing.
So for me and my family: State all the way if there is a GOOD/OUTSTANDING school...and get involved! Schools are crying out for good governors to help in the running of the school. Use the money saved in private education to pay for any tutors your child needs.
Molgrips
Not really important. He wouldn't be where he is today if we didn't move him to the private system.
My other son was let down by two state schools and is surviving but not thriving in a third primary. So, yes, I feel the state SYSTEM has let my boys down. In my experience.
Clearly we all want the best for our kids and I'm sure most would put their kids in private schools if they could afford it.
However it is a huge financial undertaking, as once they are in, you won't want to take them out. £15k a year for five years is £75k which would make a massive dent in your mortgage, free up your finances so you can all enjoy a better life without pressure. If you do it for one child you're pretty much duty bound to do it for any others etc. what may seem affordable now may in a couple of years be less so, for reasons unknown.
Therefore, if I was you I'd be looking at every alternative option before I went down that route.
We can only give our own perspective. Heres mine. I went to a local state school, likewise so did my wife, I did fine, academically school was no strain, went on to uni, good degree etc. That said, throughout school I was a always a bit on the shy side, and in the working environment it took me quite a bit of time to gain confidence. To me, and looking at my education, the state school was good from an academic perspective, but didn't give me the opportunities to get into sport or try something like music or drama (it was in the 80'so with all the various strikes there was absolutely no extra curricular activities).
Looking at my eldest son, who has just stated private school last yr aged 5, I could see a lot of myself in him, in the right environment he would be confident, happy and eager to engage but when out of his depth or in a large group, his shyness would allow him to drift somewhere into the group and not be seen or heard. The private school we chose is small, class size of 7 in his present year group and with that the amount of attention he gets is 3 to 4x more than the state sector based on class sizes. More importantly the schooling is very personal, the teaching staff have the time to help him find his talents and whatever they may be, they can help develop them.
From a financial perspective, clearly its a massive under taking, but I am confident we can scrape through, expensive holidays, fancy cars, dare I say it, new bikes are not the be all and end all. Seeing my son eager to learn and experiencing everything the school can throw at him means I am in no doubt we made the right choice. OP I hope you too can make the right choice whatever that may be.