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I know someone who turned around and walked away from an abortion clinic because of religious protest outside. She now has an 18 year old daughter.
From their perspective, that protest/prayer/presence would be deemed a success
The problem is that they are not protesting the general issue, they're personalising the protest by targeting individuals. The fact that many of those individuals may be in a vulnerable state makes the protestors' behaviour even worse.
This is not an act of private worship, it's a public attempt to intimidate people who are going about their lawful business.
If they are not trying to guilt trip people who must already feel a huge emotional burden then what are they doing there? if anybody can put forward a plausible reason I'm willing to listen. Are they praying for the women who are having abortions? For the aborted fetuses? Do they therefore assume that either choose to follow their particular deity?
I imagine that they are praying for the souls of the foetus and the mother who is committing a mortal sin in their view. Further I guess the aim of doing it publicly is to get people to see the light and change their mind.
I don't think you can pick and choose who has the right to demonstrate in a free society - either they do or they don't. Someone finding the act of praying offensive beggars belief.
If you really really believed that babies were being murdered somewhere, wouldn't you want to do anything you could to try and stop it?
I'd inform the police if I thought the law was being broken, because I don't think vigilantism is the solution.
Like I said - they believe babies are being murdered. What would you do if you thought that were happening somewhere? How do you feel about honour killings or say female genital mutiliation? If you knew there were places doing that near you would you just back off respectfully?
In my eyes it is indefensible, hurtful behaviour
And in their eyes, abortions are much worse than that.
I don't think you can pick and choose who has the right to demonstrate in a free society - either they do or they don't. Someone finding the act of praying offensive beggars belief.
I don't think anyone has suggested people don't have the right to demonstrate against abortion.
I don't think anyone has suggested the act of praying is offensive.
I think it is wrong to conduct public prayer meetings that are specifically intended to intimidate individuals who are lawfully providing or using reproductive health services.
Like I said - they believe babies are being murdered. What would you do if you thought that were happening somewhere? How do you feel about honour killings or say female genital mutiliation? If you knew there were places doing that near you would you just back off respectfully?
I'd inform the police if I thought the law was being broken, because I don't think vigilantism is the solution.
Killing (of any sort) and FGM is illegal in the UK.
attempt to intimidate people who are going about their [b]lawful[/b] business.
Interesting choice of words.
Elsewhere in the world abortion is illegal, and people protest against that.
Or substitute abortion for anything from smoking cannabis, equality for women, to homosexuality. Legality and morality are seldom the same thing.
And even people see things on a sliding scale, some things are blatantly (IMO) none of the laws business (oppression of homosexuality and women), others become an issue of protecting people from themselves (drugs) and each other (abortion*).
*im pro choice, but frankly glad its not one I have to ever make because I don't think I could personally regardless of the circumstances. So I'm sticking my head in the sand and lumping it in with homosexuality and oppression of women as none of the law's business.
Maybe they're praying for simple, succesful procedures.
Mmm. Me, I revere the right to faith, the right to choice and the right to protest. But abortion can be a traumatic enough experience without having ****s outside making it worse out of spite. Because that's what it is- if the point was just to pray, prayer has a range greater than 100 feet. The point is to make things worse for the people using the clinic. So **** them.
If an all-powerful supernatural being can't stop it, what chance would I have?If you really really believed that babies were being murdered somewhere, wouldn't you want to do anything you could to try and stop it?
I think you're sidestepping the point there scotroutes.
Killing (of any sort) and FGM is illegal in the UK.
Indeed. And these people believe killing is happening.
What if you thought that something awful was happening and yet wasn't illegal?
What if you thought that something awful was happening and yet wasn't illegal?
Like what?
molgrips - go after the lawmakers? Petitions, lobby mps, get scientific evidence on your side?
Interesting choice of words
It is legal to provide and use licensed abortion services in the UK, hence "lawful business".
A simpler law based on the don't be a dick rule. An exclusion zone for people wanting to protest ie you can't come and harrass people especially if they having a difficult emotional time.
And yes quietly muttering outside is a protest and it's being done at that place for the reasons to be seen by the people there.
All in it's not very christian is it.
Like I said - they believe babies are being murdered. What would you do if you thought that were happening somewhere? How do you feel about honour killings or say female genital mutiliation? If you knew there were places doing that near you would you just back off respectfully?
Not analogous at all, in the case of infanticide, honour killing or FGM I suspect you'll find that almost 100% of the population would agree with you, it's also illegal under U.K. Law and not part of any historical or cultural tradition we have.
For abortion you'd be out of step with the opinion of 93% of the population and also current U.K. Law.
Someone finding the act of praying offensive beggars belief.
I don't find it offensive. I think, in this particular situation, it is being done to intimidate and / or upset. I have personal beliefs, but I don't hang around places that don't share them whilst talking quietly with a group of like minded individuals.
All in it's not very christian is it.
That's bang on the money
It's not about finding prayer offensive or denying the right to protest. Prayer is a private conversation with God. If you're doing it outside an abortion clinic, you're doing it as either a protest or in judgement of others. Therefore it is not a prayer.
My old lodger does this. Funny how it's almost always men protesting/praying. Funilly enough he did nothing to support children that were alive and living in poverty, did nothing for kids at his church, did nothing for kids around the world. But that's the joy of religion, you can force your prejudice onto others and blame you imaginary friend. Personally I think harassing vulnerable women over his religious beliefs makes him a terrorist.
And in their eyes, abortions are much worse than that.
Unfortunately the revised version of their manual for living as laid down by the CEO says:
"Judge not lest ye yourselves be judged"
Those praying are not Christians as a result. Yes I am aware of the irony of my statement but I have chosen to no longer follow that particular path due to the hypocrisy inherent in organised religion. My god is in the landscape and the company of family good friends.
So a few people are holding bibles and rosary beads and as the OP put it "mumbling" in prayer (spit)
From this we LEAP to
morons
reprehensible
intimidation
offensive
****s
spite!.....
😉 brilliantly done.
I'm not condemning the whole of Christianity in my opinion above. It's stating the obvious but there are plenty of good decent people both inside and outside of Christianity. And a minority of judgemental folk inside and outside too.
It's not as black and white as you paint it, teamhurtmore. I haven't called them reprehensible, spiteful, offensive, or dicks, but what they are doing is not prayer either (going my my understanding of what prayer is). Anyway, God will be the judge..
No just the vile ones who aren't even praying, merely [s]Mumbling[/s] protesting and judging. Do you think that they are using the rosary beads to count how many people are going in or as a weapon of intimidataion?
Perhaps the police should be called to deal with the "protest" as it sounds awful. Why is this kind of thing "tolerated"?
Edit: perhaps he will, perhaps he won't. Depende on whether he exists or not, doesn't it?
(not suggesting that those words are attributed to you personally Vicky 😉 )
honour killing or FGM I suspect you'll find that almost 100% of the population would agree with you, it's also illegal under U.K. Law and not part of any historical or cultural tradition we have.
Ok so maybe you aren't in the UK then? You are hiding behind the legality aspect as if UK law is the guardian of morality and truth in the world.
It's a bit like standing outside a nursing home in a black cloak with a scythe - just a not very nice thing to do to vulnerable people.
I wonder what the Venn diagram of abortion protesters and anti-sex education people looks like?
I'm sure we can all take a moment to ask that God will help some of those on this thread realise their errors and follow him more closely.
Nothing beats a bit of passive aggressive prayer.
thm- I'm not sure I follow your last post. I don't think they are vile and I don't think the police should be called. They have a right to protest, but I believe there are more appropriate times and places to do that. And I don't agree that what they are doing is genuine prayer. Oh, they might be using rosary beads and saying all the right words but it's not prayer in my book.
Edit- just seen martinhutch's description. I agree- it's passive aggressive prayer which isn't actually prayer.
Gave a large blast on my air horn while riding past the ones at the top of Whitfield street. They were so deep in prayer that only one of them jumped out of his skin.
Gave a large blast on my air horn while riding past the ones at the top of Whitfield street. They were so deep in prayer that only one of them jumped out of his skin.
That was a naughty thing to do - have you not read Revelation on the subject of horns? Now they'll be expecting hail and fire, mixed with blood to start raining down.
Now they'll be expecting hail and fire, mixed with blood to start raining down.
But will they be upset when it doesn't ?
vickypea - don't feed the troll
There are plenty of instances of public prayer in Christian worship so your personal definition is too narrow in my view. But that is a diversion, even if their presence is intimidating that is hardly unique among demonstrations, so I just find it very difficult to see how you can argue others have the right to demonstrate without being hypocritical.
Peter Tatchell was very good on this when the "Christian Cake" appeal was lost - see [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/gay-cake-row-i-changed-my-mind-ashers-bakery-freedom-of-conscience-religion ]here.[/url]
Too narrow - to suit a different narrative?
I shudder the think what might happen if the reprehensible few moved on from aggressive mumbling. Would all "hell" break lose?
Ok so maybe you aren't in the UK then? You are hiding behind the legality aspect as if UK law is the guardian of morality and truth in the world.
So you accept that the analogy is irrelevant for the UK then?
And no I'm not hiding behind the Legality aspect, I'm pointing out that both UK law and the will of the majority are in complete agreement, you appear to have spectacularly missed that.
even if their presence is intimidating that is hardly unique among demonstrations,
I suppose the question that is troubling some people is how any demonstration that actively sets out to intimidate people who may well be at a vulnerable moment in their lives fits in with the core principles that are supposed to guide the Christian life.
Mefty - public prayer? Examples? Just not something I have really seen so trying to understand this
I just find it very difficult to see how you can argue others have the right to demonstrate without being hypocritical.
I am not suggesting the "pro life" protestors don't have the right to demonstrate. They have a legal right to stand outside clinics and pray, and they are lawfully exercising that right.
However, this is a personalised protest intended to intimidate vulnerable people. They don't have to protest this way, and I think their behaviour betrays a fundamental meanness of spirit and lack of respect for other people.
I'd bet most Christians in the UK would distance themselves from this behaviour.
Perhaps the police should be called to deal with the "protest" as it sounds awful. Why is this kind of thing "tolerated"?
Thm I'd say yes call the police, want to pray for people do it in your own home or church, they have gone their intentionally to mess with people.
Better still round all the prayers up - shall we create special camps for them so that they can only mumble aggressively well away from normal people?
Personally I do find mumbling so terribly intimidating. Why won't they speak up so that you can hear them properly?? They are so inconsiderate.... ****s
Personally I do find mumbling so terribly intimidating. Why won't they speak up so that you can hear them properly?? They are so inconsiderate.... ****s
Is that because you are lacking in empathy and not in the middle of a very traumatic emotional experience?
So you accept that the analogy is irrelevant for the UK then?
No, I'm saying put yourself in their position (didn't think it was this difficult!)
Imagine you think that babies are being murdered. What do you do?
No it's because I can't hear what they are saying
At least with proper protesters you can hear the nonsense and have a giggle. But these terrible mumbling people deprive us of that. ****s
don't feed the troll
That be a yes then thm.