[Closed] Power Balance bands again.

Now don't be teasing any sadsacks from STW who actually bought one....

Now don't be teasing any sadsacks from STW who actually bought one....

Who would admit to buying one?

Surely there must be some incredible scientific evidence out there to say that they work though. Hmmm - wonder if this has anything to do with a certain recent decline in the forum's awesomeness coefficient.

Now, if only the same person who made the complaint against Powerbands could follow the same track with DW-Link...

Rachel

I'm sure someone on here had started a defence of them, then scurried off in shame

Excellent! Although it's a shame to see that they are still allowed to sell them, just with a link secreted at the bottom of their website...

I'm going to buy one.

And one for the dog.

I reckon they might work.

Rachel, DW link? What have I missed?

They got 2 stars in What Mountain Bike... apparently someone called willow swears by them.

I don't think it's this Willow.

[img] [/img]

I started a thread in defense of powerbands, so there!!

[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/in-defence-of-powerbands ]powerband defense[/url]

Why didn't you tie a thread round your wrist and believe in that? Much cheaper and less silly.

I've drawn one on my wrist with a permanent marker.

I also save money on homeopathic remedies by drinking tap water.

idave- I take it, you've not actually read the thread 😆

@eth3er - It was the first thing that entered my mind that might be even vaguely believable - that's all.

Rachel

double post, sorry the silly track hamster keeps falling over 😕

I also save money on homeopathic remedies by drinking tap water.

You'll overdose you fool 🙂

what's funny about that, is although there is no scientific proof that a power balance works, there is no proof whatsoever that it doesn't work.

Just some anecdotal stories, so is it placebo or not who knows. Plus you may have to consider this from a legal point of view. If you are considered guilty until you prove yourself innocent then actually power balance wont stand a chance. However if you are considered innocent until proven guilty, then good luck to get to the same result than in Oz.

But then I am not to bothered about it, I am way more bothered about things like the MEDIATOR or the thalidomide then someone being upset to have spend 30 odd pounds on something that may or may not have an effect.

EDIT double post

[url= http://www.dw-link.com/reasons.html ]DWlink cowdung,[/url] the engineering people walk out the room and the marketing people walk in.

what's funny about that, is although there is no scientific proof that a power balance works, there is no proof whatsoever that it doesn't work.

Did that get lost in translation, I thought you had a job as a scientist?

That's paraphrasing, "I bought one and am now trying to not look like a a pillock."

It's the same wooly thinking that keeps religion going, for I suspect not wholly dissimilar reasons. If you make something up, and can't disprove it, that doesn't automatically give it credibility no matter how much you want it to.

I have microscopic invisible unicorns living in my skirting board. You can't disprove it so hey! maybe there's something in it.

Ian started this thread. I suspect this is a ploy to divert attention from himself when we discover he has boxes full of them.

No-one ever claimed they cured impotency Ian!

jonb and cougar +1. Jesus Christ Juan, get a grip man.

The Italains here love it....

Also they wear these gumshield things that helps them breathe!!!!

And this stuff aint cheap!!!

First i don't have one. And no nothing is lost in translation. I don't get why you guy are so prone to bash it, it's not more ridiculous than spending money on some titanium bolt for the . If someone want to spend some money in a power-balance let them be. And as much as you look there is no proof it works I concur. But and that is a very big but, there is no proof it doesn't work.
So as scientific I ask you that: do you have a proof it does not work?
For the record I don't have one, and I do not believe in it, but I am willing to keep an open mind, even on placebo effect.

And as I said, there is things far more important then being upset because you spend 20 odd quid in a gimmick for a bike.

So, my powerbalance tattoo is pointless?

DrP

A titanium bolt does save weight, I can prove this using scales. A powerband on the other hand does not work at all.

And as much as you look there is no proof it works I concur. But and that is a very big but, there is no proof it doesn't work.
So as scientific I ask you that: do you have a proof it does not work?

It's a bit of plastic with a sticker on it, why on earth should anyone have to provide proof? Surely the onus is on the manufacturer to provide it?

Since the manufacturer has now admitted that their claims were false, there's no need to "prove" anything.

Now then, how long before someone takes a UK retailer to task over them?

Druidh lets read the statement again shall we ;-). They said they have no scientific proof it works... That is different. It is indeed a rubber band with a sticker on it, but once again can you prove it does not work?
And that is the point, scientific theories work until you prove them wrong. In this case no-one have proved them wrong. Yet.

Surely the onus is on the manufacturer to provide it?

I have microscopic invisible unicorns living in my skirting board

You have them too? Did you know that by licking the skirting boards you can take on the power of the Unicorn?

Greater lung capacity...
Increased sexual performance...
Optimised forum pedantry...

You're just one lick away!

Edit: Juan this is one of those threads that you really shouldn't troll on!

[i]No-one ever claimed they cured impotency Ian![/i]
True, but the shiny hologram can be used to hypnotise ladies into thinking my little problem has gone away.

Juan is talking sense if only people would care to read what is written.

An absence of proof that something works is not the same as proof that it doesn't work.

If you were to research massage for example you would find very little that actually proves its effectiveness.

Juan for the last time, you are embarrassing yourself. Read and understand the scientific method. Science is about Postulation, evidence and proof. Otherwise you could postulate any old preposterous rubbish and claim it was true as there was no evidence to refute it.

Ask yourself this, if there is no proof it works, how did they find out it works in the first place so that they could "develop" the "product"? ESP?

An absence of proof that something works is not the same as proof that it doesn't work.

SBZ - again this is just a fallacy, if you cannot prove it works, then it doesn't work.

If you were to research massage for example you would find very little that actually proves its effectiveness.

a) That's not true there is lots of clinical evidence for the effectiveness of massage in soft tissue recovery.
b) If there were no evidence then again it would prove it does not work.

Titanium frames can fly - FACT!

It's just nobody has worked out how to utilise their power yet.

[i]They said they have no scientific proof it works... That is different. It is indeed a rubber band with a sticker on it, but once again can you prove it does not work?[/i]

Yup, I can prove they do not work. As you well know it's trivially easy to arrange a trial to prove they don't work (Although first we'd have to agree on what they are meant to do) The problem is not proving they don't work, the problem is arranging funding to carry out such a trial. You obviously wouldn't get any funding from conventional funding streams, because it's patently obvious they don't work.
But if you arrange the funding I'm more than happy to arrange for someone at work to arrange a trial. 🙂

Juan is talking sense if only people would care to read what is written.

An absence of proof that something works is not the same as proof that it doesn't work

The problem is not proving they don't work, the problem is arranging funding to carry out such a trial.

This is true as well. I am wondering why no-one have done that to be honest. All you need a a few PB, and people volunteering. Then you can test the PB against a placebo and and do your stats. You'll indeed need two test, a blind and a double blind to validate... I am curious how much money it can cost to be fair.

I will admit to having no knowledge of power bands, only from this thread, but scientific evidence is only as good as the scientists undertaking the research.
Science IMHO knows very little about how energy forces work. As juan says keep an open mind.

In this case no-one have proved them wrong. Yet.

[url= http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/power_balance_bracelets_a_bust_in_iig_test/ ]Yes they have.[/url]

Power Balance bands are a scientifically proved method of separating money and idiots. Above and beyond that, they do nothing.

Even if it were the case that we couldn't disprove whether it works or not (which it isn't, it's laughably easy to test), the burden of proof lies with the manufacturer of the device. It's not down to anyone, scientists or laypeople, to disprove.

They're the ones making wild claims; [i]either they have some proof that it works, or they've made it up. [/i]By their own admission (as per the OP), it's the latter.

Science IMHO knows very little about how energy forces work.

Assuming this is true, that doesn't mean we get to make stuff up and pass it off as 'fact' to the hard of thinking.

well that weak argument is usually used when we are looking for things with strong theoretical foundation and supporting evidence

In this case there is no theoretical foundation or supporting evidence...

Science IMHO knows very little about how energy forces work

Cougar thanks, they don't work apparently (although I would have like some numbers).
However do we ask manufacturers to provide proof of their claim when they claim things such as:
new fork is stiffer
new brakes are twice as powefull
DWLink work
or new coating reduce friction by 90%
😉
I think we don't, which in my opinion raises a question why are we so trustful in some case and not in others.

N.B. I am not in any case saying you should buy a PB one more time. Just say that just saying that there is no proof they work is not a valid scientific point. After all there is no proof off plenty of things we take for granted (mostly quantum science). The experiment described by cougar at least is a first step in the way that it shows that the power balance have no effect. It would be interested to see if they can get a peer reviewed article based on that short test to be honest.

However do we ask manufacturers to provide proof of their claim when they claim things such as:
new fork is stiffer
new brakes are twice as powefull
DWLink work
or new coating reduce friction by 90%

Yes!

Just say that just saying that there is no proof they work is not a valid scientific point.

Umm yes it is actually. I thought you were a scientist?

The southern yeti are you sure? Can you send me a link where there is actually some scientific method validation about claims that new coating is better than old one?

Toys I think you need to get a good LR on peer-reviewed article. Plenty of postulate and assumption in them, with no proof as that.

Toys I think you need to get a good LR on peer-reviewed article. Plenty of postulate and assumption in them, with no proof as that.

LR?

Indeed plenty of postulate and assumption, and no proof, so all the readers can take the meaning from that, just because it's been published does not make it fact. I've written plenty of papers with theory only, it's an important part of the scientific method for lots of reasons.

What field do you work in?

Red bikes are faster though.
Now that is scientific fact — there's no real evidence for it — but it is scientific fact.

Red bikes are faster though.
Now that is scientific fact — there's no real evidence for it — but it is scientific fact.

It's been proven by thousands if not millions of observations since redness was invented.

Comp chem.
Ian you wrong... Everyone know that a five coloured stripe bike is faster 😉

It's been proven by thousands if not millions of observations since redness was invented.

yeah but no, as atherton's bikes are blue 😉 and absalon's ones are blue or white with stripe 😉

 

I haven't got a link, no. But the stiffness of a set of forks etc is certainly something that can be tested, using that science hoodoo.

Damn you for sucking me into your Troll!

I fail to see why you're having such a difficult time in accepting that something that someone made up, was made up. Are you Fox Mulder? There's having an open mind, and then there's having a commonsensectomy.

Stiffer forks, braking forces etc, are all very easy to measure. These aren't ephemeral, difficult to verify claims. You're absolutely right that we shouldn't necessarily believe everything we're told though; some industries are practically built on feeding us horsecrap.

For instance. If washing powder manufacturers really did get my whites whiter than their previous powder did every time they claimed to have done so, they'd be visible from Alpha Centauri by now. Global warming wouldn't be attributed to pollution, they'd be blaming the glow from my pants.

The cosmetics industry lies to use constantly precisely because their claims are hard to test. I've been using this moisturiser for 20 years because it claims to keep me young looking. Has it worked? There's no baseline, how would I know?

Yoghurt's got in on the act now too; put a spoonful of the stuff into a little bottle, mix a bit of milk in, claim it contains "Digestivum" (I refer you back to my earlier comment about making stuff up), give it a name that sounds like a Klingon swearword and market it to the depressingly gullible at a quid a bottle.

Homeopathy. End of sentence.

So, yes. Your question is valid, but your conclusion is wrong. We accept what we're told far too readily, but the solution isn't to blindly give credence to any old dog egg peddler that happens by, it's to question whether or not we're being conned by immoral crooks.

And to be honest, a peer review of PB bands would frankly be a waste of scientists.

Let me see if I can make this clear. And I'll type it slowly so it's easy to understand.

There is no evidence, no reason, no logic, nothing at all, to suggest that PB bands do anything at all. The only reason we're having this conversation is because someone in Marketing for their company made it up. They've now [i]admitted [/i]this. There is nothing to test.

Sorry, define "doesn't work"?

I'll crop some of what I posted somewhere else:

Lets break this down into a theoretical example:

If I manufactured and sold a hologram wristband (Faithband TM)that I claimed could improve your performance, and carried out a double blind test on it versus a wristband without a hologram, what you would almost certainly see is no difference whatsoever between the two groups test results, however, at the same time, if you compared this with a control group who were not given a wristband, you almost certainly would see a statistically significant number of those wearing either of the bands having an improvement in performance over the control group, this, as I'm sure you all know, is due to the placebo effect.

Now, if 30% of the test group improved their performance over the control group, (and this would not be an unrealistic figure) then like it or not, the Faithband is an effective aid to training in 1/3 of cases - all the improvement is admittedly only because of the placebo effect, but you cannot dismiss the fact that placebo is a very complex and highly effective psychological tool, that is not really fully understood by science...

So, in brief, I'd suggest that while the whole hologram bunkum science hype underwriting the powerband is clearly balls, that does not undermine the fact that we could well see a significant improvement in performance from a wearer, due to placebo effect (and perhaps without the sales bullsh... they would not receive the same benefit) This doesn't make them idiots, gullible, fools or worthy of derision, it makes them human beings, who are subject to a known psychological phenonemon that science does not fully understand.

My question to you all would be this - even if it is down to the placebo effect, what really is so wrong with that? The band may still deliver a tangible, measurable and provable benefit. If the benefit is real and quantifiable, then thats all that matters!

Welcome to the world of the human mind - its an amazing organ, and if someone is willing to pay £30 in the belief that it will improve their performance, then it just might be the best £30 they've ever spent...

In the latest MBUK the guy who writes the freeride column (Chris?) says he is using one and it makes a difference....

Sponsored maybe?

This is true as well. I am wondering why no-one have done that to be honest. All you need a a few PB, and people volunteering. Then you can test the PB against a placebo and and do your stats. You'll indeed need two test, a blind and a double blind to validate... I am curious how much money it can cost to be fair.

Juan, with respect, double blind doesn't test whether powerband would improve performance, only whether you'd improve performance over placebo... Now, if you could introduce a pure control to the equation, then you'd have a more accurate reflection of the efficacy - clearly this would be difficult due to the fact that you cannot put a band on people without them noticing, and even if you do that, its hard to exclude the possibility of Hawthorne effect on those who know they're being tested...

commonsensexctomy - lol

In science if you make a theory then you need to provide proof. If you do not have proof then you have a hypothesis which is open to debate but is not a "fact" or taken as such.

I agree that absence of proof is not proof of absence but the default position of most scientists should be sceptical but open minded. They may work and I'll believe they do, but only when someone proves it to me.

define "doesn't work"?

Sorry, my bad. "Doesn't work beyond placebo."

I take your point, however "should we be endorsing placebo medicine" is a whole other topic of conversation. "Should we allow people to be openly deceived by private companies" is more the angle I'm coming from.

Cougar, but would you accept that the normal "endorsing placebo medicine" arguments would not apply, we're talking about improving the performance of a healthy subject, not failing to improve the prognosis of an ill subject.

In addition, there may be an important element of self selection here, which would make a belief in the (pseudo) science a vital part of the (placebo caused) performance improvement... so, if you believe its going to work, its more likely to do so - and this is where we get into the difficult subject of "deceiving people" - if you say its going to work, and it does work (and you can actually quantify a measurable and supportable performance improvement, even if it is entirely placebo) then are you actually deceiving anyone?

And I'll type it slowly so it's easy to understand.

Sorry, I worry sometimes that I'm too subtle. (-:

In science if you make a theory then you need to provide proof. If you do not have proof then you have a hypothesis which is open to debate but is not a "fact" or taken as such.

I agree that absence of proof is not proof of absence but the default position of most scientists should be sceptical but open minded. They may work and I'll believe they do, but only when someone proves it to me.

[url= http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459.abstract ]Juan, have you ever heard of this paper that proposes a randomised control trial to test the efficacy of parachutes?[/url]

That's genius.

Cougar - Member
"Should we allow people to be openly deceived by private companies" is the angle I'm coming from.

'we have a duty to point and laugh loudly at people being stupid' - is the angle i'm coming from...

Heh, no arguments here.

cycleworlduk - Member

just signed upto be the local stockist and wondered if any of the collective had used em....

we've had a bit of interest so far.
Posted 1 month ago

Tut tut tut.

DT78 - Member
In the latest MBUK the guy who writes the freeride column (Chris?) says he is using one and it makes a difference....

And then we're expected to believe their bike tests...

Cougar

Homeopathy. End of sentence.

Ohh lets start this, I need to do some more moron baiting now that this thread has died.

I like the parachute test 😀

Can we not so randomise the ones jumping with no parachute? I indeed will choose the bias 😈

Toys19 in my field on of the big assumption is that the experiment is always true 😯

They may work and I'll believe they do, but only when someone proves it to me.

Well I would love to look into it. Just taking the tests they perform on the website, make sure it can be done using machinery and then having some guinea pigs to perform the tests.

Toys19 in my field on of the big assumption is that the experiment is always true

That proves nothing of what you spoke of previously, you have to make an assumption to make a test. If you didnt make an assumption you wouldn't need to do the research.

I've only scanned the thread to see the number of naysayers on here doubting the power of the band and I'd just want to add I BELEIVE!

Magnets are great things, I spent a not inconsiderable amount of money on a magnet that fits around the fuel line in my car aligning the diesel molecules as they pass and that gives my car more power and balance too ;o)

You slipped up there. You could have wrapped a powerband around the exhaust and increased the car's balance and power whilst aligning its chi and repelling blue Volvos(*).

(* - note, Powerband does not work on blue Volvos)

(also, there's no magnets in Power Balance bands, otherwise it'd at least be based in old quackery rather than new quackery)

Can we put astrology here as well?

With joy in my heart and a spring in my step.