[i]Why does the Universe exist?[/i]
I don't know. But 1000 years ago we didn't understand the rain cycle, 300 years ago we didn't know that bodies of mass were drawn to each other by gravity, 100 years ago we didn't know how flight was possible, 60 years ago we didn't know that DNA was at the root of all living things. Just because we don't know now doesn't mean we won't know at some time in the future.
[i]Nope, that's a different thing, that's just not taking a stance one way or the other. If you actively understand why you are an atheist and have reached that opinion through rational argument then it is a fully backed up belief. [/i]
Exactly
[i]Atheists dont have to justify non belief in irrationality.[/i]
Okay, let's turn it on it's head. Why is religion irrational?
Rudeboy
To ask "why" is not valid. Just because you can ask why does not make it a real question like "why" is that mountain. I would ask why do we need a reason to be?
If you ask "how" then that's a scientific and logical question that has not been fully explained. Because it hasn't been explained yet is not a reason to believe in fairy tales. Otherwise thats just a "god of the gaps" in our knowledge.
I think you are confusing the question in a scientific and philosophical manner.
[i]Why does the Universe exist? [/i]
Scientific - because the big bang happpened and the universe was the result, just like why did that ball just move? Because you hit it with a force.
Philosophically - I would first follow Russel's mantra of philosophical thinking, and of course this leads us down a path where many solutions have been proposed, but none as strong as religion yet:
[i]"What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance."[/i]
Scientific - because the big bang happpened and the universe was the result, just like why did that ball just move? Because you hit it with a force.
No no, that's 'how'.
I asked 'why'?
Anyway, much as I've enjoyed this debate (and I have), it's four o'clock which is hometime
Thank God for that 😉
(Wanders off from thread, laughing)
Rudeboy I think I answered your question earlier.
Rudeboy -
first of all, why should there be a why? Attempting to find meaning in the universe is a human activity, the universe doesn't need a reason to exist. Unless you mean in the sense that if we weren't here to see it it wouldn't exist.
Secondly, God is no explanation at all. If God is the explanation for the existence of the universe, what is the explanation for the existence of God? It doesn't move things on at all, it's just a sleight of hand and for some reason half the population take their eye off the ball and think an explanation has been given, when it hasn't.
It's disgraceful, [url= http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/columnists/petermullen/4114709.Any_excuse_to_beat_up_Christianity/ ]Any excuse to beat up Christianity[/url]!
I was lucky enough to have a very understanding form tutor who arranged for me to mess around in his science lab during assembly. Equally, the religious studies teacher was a slight crackpot and we didn't learn anything about religion either, which was great.
Hate the idea of "compulsory worship", and when I have kids they're not being to be indoctrinated in this way.
lolololololololol.
Ahhhh had a good belly laugh at that!
Hate the idea of "compulsory worship", and when I have kids they're not being to be indoctrinated in this way.
I love the idea that what goes on in the typical school assembly could be described as indoctrination 🙂
I'm with Mike here, describing what happens in Assemblies in most Primary schools as indoctrination is stretching the definition of the word to it's limits. You'd struggle to find a 6 year old with a defined religious stance/belief/understanding outside of an overtly religious family, and even then their grasp would be limited I'd suggest.
[i]Indoctrination is the process of ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. ..[/i]
That sounds quite like a law ruling that each day the child has to have some form of worship that they cannot question in the faith that is most recognised at the school.
No it doesn't. (or rather, most Worship in most schools isn't conducted like your description) C'mon, most of you will remember half mumbled hymns, and a half-hearted attempt at the Lord's prayer from your school days, and yet amazingly enough nearly all of you have a reasonably healthy questioning of any religious teaching.
So you think it's right that children from the ages of 5-16 should have religion forced upon them?
I remember singing
"Who built the Ark?
No-one, no-one,
Who built the Ark?
Bloody no-one built the Ark."
And one about jet-planes meeting in the air to be refuelled, which had some great autumnal imagery but no mention of the ten commandments.
I also remember a prayer about green blackboards in Scouts, that we used to read to make the others laugh, and one about bricks.
So you think it's right that children from the ages of 5-16 should have religion forced upon them?
No, and I don't believe that they are.
Well I remember being sent out, paraded to the head teacher and being made to sit in isolation for needless disruption when I pointed out to our religious nutcase of a teacher that god did not exist. May of my classmates were stupid enough to fall for the religious rubbish, it is the only way churches continue to exist. Get them at a young age.
We also got handed out bibles and given lectures from the local church. Then being told that it was 'The Law'. I would compare the Christian occupation in schools to the Hitler youth.
I would compare the Christian occupation in schools to the Hitler youth.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwi n's_Law]Godwin's Law[/url]?
Godwins law does not count as this thread is about religion in schools by law which is a form of government propaganda.
Godwins law does not count as this thread is about religion in schools by law which is a form of government propaganda.
You're right, carry on. I will keep an eye out for our nation's youth dressed in choir robes marching through the street.
[i]I disagree. Someone either believes in a God(s), believes there is no God(s) or is not sure. There are reasons why for each, so why not explore those reasons?[/i]
Why not indeed. It would be a very quick exploration though.
1) You are an idiot
2) You are not an idiot
3) You are not sure if you are an idiot or not
Ditto
Awareness of religion from an academic perspective is fine by me, it has shaped so much of what is around us it would be ridiculous to ignore its impact through history.
Worship no.
School should be like uni-teach academics.
Religion in your own time.
No, seriously, it's exactly like the Hitler Youth. Loads of primary school kids meeting up in the morning to sing a few songs about being nice to one another and mumble some stuff about being grateful for the good things they have. While their commandant rants about the need to burn all the jews.
No, they won't be marching through the streets, just being touched by dirty old priests or trying to destroy the infidels. (Let’s not just narrow this to Christianity)
The vast majority of people with religion are perfectly normal, well-adjusted individuals and it is impossible to tell from a cursory examination of them, or indeed from measuring their brains with calipers, that they are any different from anyone else. The vast bulk of the time it quite simply doesn't matter a monkeys.
I have more in common with certain well-educated, articulate humane and decent believers than I do with plenty of closed-minded, illiberal ranting atheists.
🙂
Get them young and you have them for life. While I agree that religions as an accademic subject should be taught to all kids (and in a much more rounded, even handed way than has been my experience!) The daily act of worship is an outmoded nonsence.
I am sorry if Christians, Jews, Muslims, et al see this as "another secular attack" on them but there you go. I don't see people who love, say, Laurie Lee penning hate mail to me because, IMHO, his writing sucks and has no relevance today and there are better books to make kids read. I am free to write an essay on this and probably get some good marks for it (I did as it happens) but try and argue the non-exsistance of god in RE and you are branded a trouble maker and punished.
Religion is not special, it does not automaticly get reverential treatment or a special place in schools / society. Its like all other ideas, many of which are discarded as loony and people move on...remember the Segway?
[url=
Brigstock on the subject[/url]
SSP
The "Act of Worship" at my primary is as follows, we get the kids together in the morning, and sing a song, about say, The Weather, Harvest, Summer. How nice it is to have friends...That sort of thing. Maybe, in one of the verses there'll be a mention of "God". That's pretty much it. No hymns, no prayers, no Hitler Youth.
It's pretty much like that in most mainstream State schools. Be outraged if you must.
The "Act of Worship" at my primary is as follows, we get the kids together in the morning, and sing a song, about say, The Weather, Harvest, Summer. How nice it is to have friends...That sort of thing. Maybe, in one of the verses there'll be a mention of "God". That's pretty much it. No hymns, no prayers, no Hitler Youth.It's pretty much like that in most mainstream State schools. Be outraged if you must.
Book burning starts in Y4, I think.
Similar story here, though two years ago we chose a new more secular mission statement type thing for our primary. Religions are studied but not practised, and assemblies might not be recognised as acts of worship by those who do a lot of worshipping, though technically that's what we say they are since the law states we must have them. But the truth is that if you live in the UK, the church is an integral part of the state, Parliament starts every day with prayers, and Blair didn't feel free to join the Catholic church until he left office. It may change bit by bit, but govt is unlikely to want to unravel one part of the arrangement as if one bit was shown to be illogical and unhelpful, out would go the unelected second chamber, the Privy Council, myriad advisory bodies and ultimately the monarchy, and that might lead to an open and accountable system of government, and who really wants that?
I have more in common with certain well-educated, articulate humane and decent believers than I do with plenty of closed-minded, illiberal ranting atheists.
Quite.
closed-minded, illiberal ranting atheists.
Closed minded? Show me proof of god/s exsistance and I will change my views. More than can be said of many religious people. Its better to have ideas than faith, you can change and idea.
Illiberal? No, I want equal rights for all, including the right NOT to have a religion / be part of one / challenge them in reasonable terms. Something religious groups as a whole tend to forget. No one has the right not to be offended.
Ranting? No, quietly considered points. I'll leave ranting up to those who do it best. These are often backed up by "The Book" and " A higher power" and often ask for your unthinking obedience / credit card number.
Atheist? Yes thanks.
SSP
I teach my students to follow the great Lord:
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[/url]
(Like hell do I enforce that archaic law, it's what Ofsted would tick me off for, but balls to them)
Show me proof of god/s exsistance
Show me proof God [i]doesn't[/i] exist.
why should there be a why?
Why not?
to ask "why" is not valid
Oh, so because an Atheist says so, that's that, is it?
We had this a few weeks ago. Interestingly, like then, it's the Atheists that are being the most vociferous. Like, somehow, that shouting louder is going to make them more right...
[b]The Meaning of Life
Why are we here? What's life all about?
Is God really real, or is there some doubt?
Well, tonight, we're going to sort it all out,
For, tonight, it's 'The Meaning of Life'.
What's the point of all this hoax?
Is it the chicken and the egg time? Are we just yolks?
Or, perhaps, we're just one of God's little jokes.
Well, ça c'est le 'Meaning of Life'.
Is life just a game where we make up the rules
While we're searching for something to say,
Or are we just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DNA. Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.
In this 'life', what is our fate?
Is there Heaven and Hell? Do we reincarnate?
Is mankind evolving, or is it too late?
Well, tonight, here's 'The Meaning of Life'.
For millions, this 'life' is a sad vale of tears,
Sitting 'round with rien nothing to say
While the scientists say we're just simply spiralling coils
Of self-replicating DNA. Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.
So, just why-- why are we here,
And just what-- what-- what-- what do we fear?
Well, ce soir, for a change, it will all be made clear,
For this is 'The Meaning of Life'. C'est le sens de la vie.
This is 'The Meaning of Life'.[/b]
I'm not sure that the assumption that those who embrace religion have abandonned their rational senses is necessarily right. Some would surely argue that there is plenty of evidence which leads them to a rational conclusion that there probably IS a God... I think there's probably value in exploring this within an educational context.
SB, I agree. I am a Christian but I haven't abandoned logical thinking. In fact, logic brought me to the point where I realized that giving my life to God was something I had to do, the best option. It wasn't a decsion based on emotion or pursuasion but a simple reaction to facts that had been presented to me. I have a degree in Geography as well as loads of other academic stuidies but I believe in the bible. The two don't clash to me.
Don't knock it till you tried it. 😀
Show me proof God doesn't exist.
You prove to me why the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't exist and let me know how you worked it out. I'll most probably use the same argument...
(hint: you cannot prove a negative)
Why not?
Why 'why not'?
Oh, so because an Atheist says so, that's that, is it?
Nah. You made the positive statment: "Why does the universe exist?". It is for you to prove that there is a 'why'. I'll sit here with a nice book (Alexander McCall Smith at the mo). Tap me on the shoulder when you are ready.
We had this a few weeks ago. Interestingly, like then, it's the Atheists that are being the most vociferous. Like, somehow, that shouting louder is going to make them more right...
Nah, it is the wheedly ones who think they have a privileged belief that can never be scrutinised and yet want to tell everyone else how to live based upon it...
You trolling again RudeBoy?
Not at all.
I find some of the arguments for, and against, God, quite interesting. I have my own beliefs, and try to respect others. I don't really think people suggesting that those who chose to follow a religion are in any way of lesser intelligence very constructive, tbh.
For you, God does not exist. Fine. This does not mean God does not exist entirely, however; it is merely your belief.
And if Atheists 'know' they are 'right', why do they seem as zealous at proving their conviction, as those they seek to discredit? Why not just ignore those who chose to believe in God?
Who really knows? None of us.
Is there Life in far distant Galaxies? Possibly.
Is there a God?
Maybe just too abstract a concept for the particularly logically minded to grasp...
Some would surely argue that there is plenty of evidence which leads them to a rational conclusion that there probably IS a God... I think there's probably value in exploring this within an educational context.
Who are these "some" can you name them? Can you or "them" identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence that would justify a single moment of our childrens finite school curriculum to its study.
You flatter yourself that beleif in fairy stories has some measurable academic benefit.
but a simple reaction to facts that had been presented to me
What are these facts? Are you in possession of facts. I think you owe it to your fellow believers to show them the evidence they have craved for years.
For you, God does not exist. Fine. This does not mean God does not exist entirely, however; it is merely your belief.And if Atheists 'know' they are 'right', why do they seem as zealous at proving their conviction, as those they seek to discredit? Why not just ignore those who chose to believe in God?
If god exists surely he exists for everyone and not just some?
Atheists have become more outspoken recently given the rise in good works published by Harris, Hitchins, Dawkins et al. These authors amongst others have managed to focus the atheist position.
Believers are always keen to preach "live and let live" however whilst your ideas are inoffensive to atheists, your beliefs ability to divert finite resources, dicate national and international policy and stifle life saving medical research is a danger to humanity.
Atheists should make no apologies for being vocal in spite of you wanting them too keep quiet.
Atheists provide life saving voluntary medical care without preaching dangerous untruths about contraception unlike their religous conterparts.
Can you or "them" identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence that would justify a single moment of our childrens finite school curriculum to its study.
Could you identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence for the concepts of love or justice?
The main thing I have a problem with is the idea of [b][i]worship[/i][/b].
I don't give a flying fish whether or not there is a god (I personally believe there isn't), but the idea that something which was capable of catapulting the universe into existence is hard to comprehend. This should be discussed in schools.
What's harder to comprehend is that this thing expects us to bow down before it and mumble how wonderful we think it is. Does that not strike any of the religious people here as odd? That god is so insecure that he/she/it needs reminding that it is a god and that we're still here?
I don't think teaching R.E. does any harm. I didn't to me, and I'm not religious.
I was in my R.E. lessons about 15 years ago, and at the time, I'm pretty sure everyone in the class had made up their own mind on the matter. Most the kids just thought it was a doss anyway and didn't really care. I don't suspect that has changed 🙂
I don't know what they teach now though, do they put more emphasis on other religions?
Anyway, like I said, it doesn't do any harm, and is probably something I should have taken more seriously given the state of the world today. It's a fairly interesting topic.
[i]What's harder to comprehend is that this thing expects us to bow down before it and mumble how wonderful we think it is. Does that not strike any of the religious people here as odd? That god is so insecure that he/she/it needs reminding that it is a god and that we're still here? [/i]
Exactly. I can't believe that an all-loving, all-knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent God would need his ego polishing by some minor life forms on a minor planet in a minor galaxy